Kicad versus diptrace

[Simon]

I guys, being a hobbyist I don't like paying for software, and I was over the moon when I found KiCAD which was also cross-platform compatible. This was good as I intended using Linux to. Well Linux is now just a thought again after my bad experience with a number of packages. And I see that Diptrace offer a free version now. Now I know that with KiCAD they are making a really good effort as I'm on the mailing list. But Diptrace is a commercial software, should I perhaps learn to use Diptrace?

[EEVblog]

IMO DipTrace is much better and easier to use than KiCAD, but that's to be expected I guess when you are talking a professional package with half a dozen full time people working on it, to a niche open source package.

If you can afford the money and want something that is potentially better and easier to use, then DIPtrace would be the better choice. But if you like completely free and unrestricted, and want to support open source efforts, then KiCAD will do what you want.
DIPtrace is not native linux, is needs WINE to work.

Dave.

[Ed.Kloonk]

..../ Well Linux is now just a thought again after my bad experience with a number of packages.

Sorry to hijack, but which packages? Do you need help?

[Dagon]

DIPtrace is not native linux, is needs WINE to work

And it does work very well. I also say that as someone who doesn't particularly like using wine. Pretty much the only problem I've encountered is that some dialog boxes can end up behind the main window if you click in the wrong place. That's little more then a minor irritation though.

[djsb]

I'm sticking with KiCAD as there are a lot of major improvements in the pipeline. The biggest ones are going to be the Eagle import plugin that is brewing and the python scripting functionality. I compile the testing version every fortnight or so and it's nice to see the improvements in realtime.
Diptrace is off the Radar for me as I have enough on my plate learning various packages at work. I've also made a major investment in Altium designer which is my professional package of choice.

David.

[Simon]

Well, I've noticed that KiCAD can be a bit of a pain, things suddenly change or stop working between versions like the editing of fields now seems to be screwed up but it worked before, now editing fields is more long winded than before as you can't just double click on a part reference as that no longer works. Something is screwed there and that does not inspire confidence considering it used to work a treat. I'd rather use a system that "just works".

As for Linux I am very unimpressed. Ubuntu is a joke, Mint was a pain in the butt and managed to switch off my laptops wifi permanently and nothing will get it back on, any linux distribution cannot use the inbuilt wireless or the usb dongle. Windows will work with the dongle only. The ubuntu based mint had a ridicolously poor performace like ubuntu (aka like Vista is) and the debian based version was not recomended for everyday use infact on a pc that I just use to get the radio on the internet (as the signal is crap for me in my area) it just gave up one day. on both versions of mint the PDF printer did not work and my mentioning it on the forums got no response, so yea just another joke.

I then tried crunchbang and that was pretty feeble to, anything I installed had to be launched by me remembering the name of it and it is so minimal in the interface it is bearly useable.

Before people accuse me of expecting linux to be like windows this is not the case. Infact I found many distributions to suffer like windows from silly lazy problems (I mean cmon mint just fix the damn pdf printer). I just wanted a system that worked. No linux system did this despite the hifalute claims of people churning it out.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Fair enough. I glad you at least tried. 

[Simon]

yes and I'm really disappointed to be back with Windows Vista. I thought Linux and the people who make it would be mature enough by now for it to be really usable by the everyday user. Unfortunately it is still an nerd only zone I think. It's hard to bash windows when you see the same Stuff in Linux. Hopefully reactOS comes along soon. Sadly I don't think they can "keep up with the Joneses" though.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I cannot find posts that are unanswered about a PDF problem on the Mint forum.

[ampdoctor]

linux has a few problems that i dont see getting fixed anytime soon.  Firstly, the entire community is completely averse to commerial software.  if a programmer isnt going to get paid for his time, there's not much incentive for him to code something that's top shelf.  so you wind up with software that's 'good enough'

Another problem again is that the community is largely comprised of nerds that think command line execution of everything is the way to go because they've got total control over what happens.  the rest of the world on the other hand has better things to do than learn 3000 commands or hand code scripts that can be easily accomplished with a simple mouse click.

Third big problem is that every distro has their own ideas of how to do things.  Talk about herding cats trying to write software for an OS  UGh!!!!!   Now Apple did it right for the most part.  They went with berkley bsd unix core and tweaked it up a bit to the way they wanted it and they were off to the races. So one other hurdle linux needs is to get things standardized so developers dont have to constantly aim at a moving target.

Having said that, i've cycled thru a LOT of distributions.  Started with slackware way back in the 90's. Tried debian for a good stretch of time, went to redhat, susse, arch, ubuntu and a few others briefly.  Debian and slack are by far the most stable but they're kind of a bitch to use.  the best of all worlds I've found so far has been this rather low profile thing called Mepis.  Debian core, KDE desktop, tho some may complain about that bit, installers that work well and auto-configure your system properly. It's niice!

So the short of it is that the Linux community needs to pull their head out of their backside deal with the idea that a decent GUI is not a bad thing, allow developers to make some money, and in short order you would see some fantastic software being written to a very stable user friendly environment.

-End Rant

[Ed.Kloonk]

linux has a few problems that i don't see getting fixed anytime soon.  Firstly, the entire community is completely averse to commercial software.  if a programmer isnt going to get paid for his time, there's not much incentive for him to code something that's top shelf.  so you wind up with software that's 'good enough'

There are plenty of coders who would find this statement offensive. There -are- some top shelf coders who take great pride in their work. The problem is non-apple platforms such as Linux allow coders of all levels to participate in the hope that they would be encouraged to produce a better output. Apple discourages novice programmers which is bad for software dev in general imo.

Another problem again is that the community is largely comprised of nerds that think command line execution of everything is the way to go because they've got total control over what happens.  the rest of the world on the other hand has better things to do than learn 3000 commands or hand code scripts that can be easily accomplished with a simple mouse click.

Any long term Linux user understands that shell scripts can and often should be wrapped in a gui layer. And by being open source, the gui people can polish the look, the console guys can crank on the script and, most importantly, the end user can tweak the whole thing if it isn't quite right. More important still is that user if baffled can go and (politely) ask anyone for help not just the vendor of the script.

Third big problem is that every distro has their own ideas of how to do things.  Talk about herding cats trying to write software for an OS  UGh!!!!!   Now Apple did it right for the most part.  They went with berkley bsd unix core and tweaked it up a bit to the way they wanted it and they were off to the races. So one other hurdle linux needs is to get things standardized so developers dont have to constantly aim at a moving target.

The biggest paradox is that unix-ey people often follow a set of rules that really makes unix what it is. One of the is "Provide mechanism not policy." Apple are quite welcome to do what they like with unix but the 'front-end' particularly the app store goes against what grey bearded unix creators had intended.

Linux people understand however that every user is different and the argument for a standard desktop for all users just doesn't make sense for power users. Beginners to Linux expect a standard interface and so do those who are trying to help them.
 

Having said that, i've cycled thru a LOT of distributions.  Started with slackware way back in the 90's. Tried debian for a good stretch of time, went to redhat, susse, arch, ubuntu and a few others briefly.  Debian and slack are by far the most stable but they're kind of a bitch to use.  the best of all worlds I've found so far has been this rather low profile thing called Mepis.  Debian core, KDE desktop, tho some may complain about that bit, installers that work well and auto-configure your system properly. It's niice!

Variety is the spice of life and the important thing is you keep searching and keep up with what other users are complaining about without falling into the trap of making it a rally.

So the short of it is that the Linux community needs to pull their head out of their backside deal with the idea that a decent GUI is not a bad thing, allow developers to make some money, and in short order you would see some fantastic software being written to a very stable user friendly environment.

Many professional coders who happen to work on code for linux  (not the kernel) are doing it for free simply because of the awfulness of coding a certain stipulated way leaves you feeling. No money is not driving factor but encouragement and warm feedback is.

Most people don't bother to track down the maintainer of a package and thank them when they've discovered some real treat. But boy, forgetting to code in a lousy free-memory-instruction and tons of haters come out of the woodwork.

-End Rant

Delightful. 

[amspire]

linux has a few problems that i don't see getting fixed anytime soon.  Firstly, the entire community is completely averse to commercial software.  if a programmer isnt going to get paid for his time, there's not much incentive for him to code something that's top shelf.  so you wind up with software that's 'good enough'

There are plenty of coders who would find this statement offensive. There -are- some top shelf coders who take great pride in their work. The problem is non-apple platforms such as Linux allow coders of all levels to participate in the hope that they would be encouraged to produce a better output. Apple discourages novice programmers which is bad for software dev in general imo.

I must admit I thought that ampdoctor's generalization showed a big lack of knowledge about the Linux "community".

There are many fully commercial, industry leading programs written for Linux, but of course, they are not the ones you will find for free on a Linux distro.

Many of the programmers of the large open source programs are salaried professional programmers. Their wages are paid by their employers who are usually companies that extensively use that open source program. They work for companies like IBM, Google, Oracle, etc.

There are many companies offering a fully professional and commercial product, but they develop the core as an opensource project and anyone can use it for free. Many of these companies are firmly part of the Linux Opensource community, so it is not as if the Linux community hates commercialization.

There are companies like Autodesk that dominates the CAD and 3D market with a big range of industry leading products.

A package like Autodesk Maya is probably about as complex and sophisticated program that you will find anywhere. It is widely used in animation studios and production houses on Linux machines.

I will admit that there is probably an emphasis with the type of top end Linux programs to target robustness first, and perhaps pretty interfaces may be seen as of secondary importance, but in general, the interfaces of a package like Maya under Linux is now almost totally identical to Maya under Windows.

At the other end of the spectrum, there are packages like SQLite3 that I think is easily the worlds No1 database engine in terms of usage. One of the most brilliant and professional pieces of programming you can find anywhere. It is now on about every phone and tablet, as well as embedded into many common commercial programs on all platforms. You are probably using it every day without knowing it.

Sure there are some pretty rough programs in the fully open source programs you will find on a standard Linux distro, but they represent a very small tip of a very big iceburg.

Richard.

[free_electron]

the end user can tweak the whole thing if it isn't quite right.

If i have to put a screw in a block of wood i take a screwdriver. Linux is like a collection of half finished screwdrivers that you always just need to grind and file a bit before you can turn in that screw. If you ask for help you end up in endless discussions about phillips verus flat screws and the mandatory bashing of torx screws because those are patented , and patents stifle innovation. Oh, and i forgot the obligatory comments about  'why not use a nail' ? it's worked for so long... and why do you want to use a plastic handle. Use a wooden one.

In the above replace phillips and flat with vi/emacs and the plastic/wood handle with kde/gnome , nail with command line , and grind and file with 'user modify' and you have 'linux' ...

Now , i am NOT bashing linux here. It's a fantastic tool and a laudable effort. But, what the unix community does fails to understand (sometimes) is that there is a differenc ebetween peope that write operating systems and like tinkering with them , and people that run APPLICATIONS.

I don't giva a hoot about the operating system. To me that is just a windowing manager with an underlying file system. How it works internally leaves me stone cold. As long as it works and lets me do my work. It's the applications i care about. And to me the quality of the application matters. I am not a programmer and can't be bothered having to work my way way through learning bash , python or whatever is in flavour now to do something that could easily be done with one mouse click. I have work to do.
Let's be honest. When was the last time you saw a XP or Win7 go belly up ? I have 6 or 7 machines that have been running win7 without a single hiccup. Of course, i only use official software , don't download 'dancing-cats.exe' and 'big-hooters.flash' , keep my system updated. ( which you have to do with linux as well. Heck linux has more updates and bugfixes in a day than windows has in a month... )

For other software i do run Red hat (work form home because that software is supported only on red-hat. Sure you can hack it to run on something else but there's that word again... you have to 'tweak it' and 'modify it'.. i just want to USE it..... )
The linux crowd does not understand that not everyone loves tinkering with the os.

There is really good quality software for linux.. But sadly none of that is 'free' or even 'gratis' ( free does not mean 'gratis' as in zero cost .. )  someone mentioned Autodesk. perfect example. But why go through the trouble of running that on linux ( apart from professional environments where you can run it on compute farms to speed up rendering )
If you are a one-desktop shop it doesn't matter and there is no point in doing it the hard way. Besides you end up in another 'soup'.. xyz is distrubted for red hat only. abc only is officially supported on Suse , this only runs on debian because the installer package is not compatible with other distros... sure you can 'tweak it' but there is that nasty word again.. You'd have to have 2 or 3 distro's of linux running side by side...

and cost wise : autocad on linux is the same price as autocad on windows.. So why go through the trouble. i go to the store , buy a computer  ( which comes with windows pre-loaded ) , pop in the autocad disk , enter the regkey and after the install i am ready to run.

I have no desire to go and buy a motherboard , ram ,drive , spend 3hours assembling it , installing a linux distro , swearing at it for 2 days because not all hardware is recognized , my printer doesn't work becasue the manufacturer has no drivers , or the wifi bogs out ever 2 minutes because linux has had persistent problems with wifi for years ... It is simply not cost effective. The task was to make a drawing... the path of least effort is most welcome.

That is another big problem : the fragmentation. freedom is great , but too much freedom yields duplication of effort and incompatibility. If some coder does not like the way something is going he has the freedom to fork. Great. But you sometimes end up in a situation with so many forks that it is the end user that is forucked in the end...

Anyway. not a linux bash or rant. Just a point of view from someone who wants a computer to run some software with minimal fuss.

[poorchava]

I think Linux based systems have 2 major flaws:
-many versions of everything. This causes situations like "in order to works this soeftware needs packages A, B and C. A has to be in version 4.5, B at least version 1.2 and C no higher than 2.123. And another software wont work without packaged C in newest version. And by the way you also need packages D,E, F, G and H. And also best to complie everything from source, sure. Let's over and over do what developers have already done. Spending 4.5hrs trying to install usb dongle? No, thanks.

-software compatibility. Most software is done for windows. This is simply true. In most cases such software needs Wine to work with linux. Wine's in most cases working, and in moast cases there's some 'but' (like: but that specific windows won't work because this, and that function doesn't work yet). Who gives a shit? People use software in order to accomplish things with it, and linux can often make installing and running software without bugs and glitches quite an accomplishment.

[ToBeFrank]

most importantly, the end user can tweak the whole thing if it isn't quite right. More important still is that user if baffled can go and (politely) ask anyone for help not just the vendor of the script.

IMO, this thinking right here is exactly why Linux will never take hold on the desktop. Non geek people simply do not want to have to tweak anything, and they don't want to have to ask anyone why it's not doing what they expect it to do. They simply want to use it.

[Bored@Work]

Firstly, the entire community is completely averse to commerial software.

This is bullshit. E.g. Red Hat is a multi million dollar company.

Another problem again is that the community is largely comprised of nerds that think command line execution of everything is the way to go because they've got total control over what happens.  the rest of the world on the other hand has better things to do than learn 3000 commands or hand code scripts that can be easily accomplished with a simple mouse click.

This is bullshit. There is a proliferation of graphical desktops and tools on Linux.

Third big problem is that every distro has their own ideas of how to do things.  Talk about herding cats trying to write software for an OS  UGh!!!!!

This is bullshit. The Linux standard base coordinates the basic function any major distribution should have, and all the large ones adhere. The special distributions do not, in order not to compromise their special goals.

Now Apple did it right for the most part.  They went with berkley bsd unix core and tweaked it up a bit to the way they wanted it and they were off to the races.

They didn't tweak it. Except of the Mach core they worked very hard to replace everything Unixoid, making Mac OS X largely incompatible the the Unix and Linux world. If you want to talk about incompatible Distributions, Max OS X  is the most incompatible one.

So one other hurdle linux needs is to get things standardized

It is standardized. Starting from POSIX compatibility, over standardized X11 as the base for all GUI systems, and freedesktop as the standardized GUI middleware  up to the Linux Standard Base. The thing is, developers like you prefer to remain ignorant of it.

so developers dont have to constantly aim at a moving target.

Developers like you could get their lazy arse up, and spend a few minutes to read the standardisation information.

So the short of it is that the Linux community needs to pull their head out of their backside deal with the idea that a decent GUI is not a bad thing, allow developers to make some money, and in short order you would see some fantastic software being written to a very stable user friendly environment.

What the Linux community does not need is yet another Microsoft FUD distributor, telling them waht they need to do, but not contributing anything by his own at all.

[ToBeFrank]

so developers dont have to constantly aim at a moving target.

Developers like you could get their lazy arse up, and spend a few minutes to read the standardisation information.

Linux does not have a standard kernel API/ABI. From what I understand, this is an edict from Linus himself. I can understand why companies are not keen to develop drivers for Linux when the very next point kernel release could break the driver.

[free_electron]

it's also funny how they deliberately 'break' things in kernel revisdions in an attempt to force 'certain' hardware providers to open source their book of tricks ... Like nVidia ...

[SeanB]

Just went out today and bought a OHL brand USB-serial dongle. Cut the phone end off ( bought for the converter not the rest) sorted out the 3 wires ( yellow - ground, blue - txd, white - rxd) and shoreted tx and rx together.

Plugged it in, tossed the minicd it came with in the round filing cabinet, and tried it with a terminal emulator. Worked first time, and it is a Prolific PL2303. No drivers needed.

[ampdoctor]

Wow bored...who pissed in your wheaties this morning?  Seems like free_electron is one of the few people with clear eyes here regarding Linux.  Is there good software out there? Of course there is!  But most of it is server based and requires quite a bit of fiddling and tweaking to make it function properly, and it damn sure isn't intended for mainstream computer users. 

Are there desktop graphic apps? Hell yes there are, though most that come packaged up with the distro's are far less than intuitive, have compatibility issues or any number of other problems.  load up pdigin and compare it to skype or yahoo messenger and tell me honestly that its even close to similar in quality, or xmms in comparison to winamp.  The list goes on and on.

Standardized core...Where?!!  Sure maybe at the kernel level somewhere, but redhat has a different structure than slack, which has a different structure than debian which is different than mandriva, which is different than ubuntu and on and on.  Get the idea?

Did I ever say that Mac was a distro?  No!  What I was trying to get at is that it took a unix type of environment and made it incredibly user friendly. Within a few hours a little kid with almost no computer experience can get the thing up and running, connect and and surf the internet with wi-fi, and perform basic functions.  hand a 10yr old a dvd of redhat or arch linux and see how long it takes him to get it up and running let alone use it.

Developers like me?  When the hell did I ever say I was a developer?! And I'm damn sure no Micro$oft FUD distributor!  But I will give the devil his due by saying that for the most part their operating system does work with very few fundamental issues excepting some of the major security issues that get exploited by some fairly shady individuals floating around.  But I guarantee if Linux had an 80% market share there would be no shortage of security problems there as well.

So here's the bottom line.  The majority of computer users are NOT programmers.  They just want to walk over to the thing turn it on and have it work.  Most people do not want to sit and screw around with the stuff for a week just to get basic computer functionality.  They want to install a program and have it work.  They do NOT want to compile the freakin thing, then find the missing dependencies, recompile, get it to load, spend a day modifying ini or access files, then maybe get it working.  And when it doesn't spend two days searching forums for answers between the miles of pissing contests between KDE and Gnome fanboys.  The general population wants their stuff to just work, get their job done, surf internet porn on lunch break, go home and hang out in a chatroom or facebook, then go to bed. 

And until the Linux community at large improves their general attitude toward the computing public by either going into personal attacks or insulting computer users intellect or the minute somebody says that their beloved OS isn't perfect as demonstrated by a few of the posters here Linux will NEVER be a mainstream operating system and will stay primarily in the domain of the IT and server community while the rest of the world moves ahead toward the future of computing.

[Simon]

I did note that I did not get an awful lot of help when I had problems on forums. If the problem was being like all the ones I had I was just ignored. I'm not in the habit of kissing peoples arses before telling them there is a problem with their software. But they should be grown-up enough to take on board what they are being told and do something about it. The PDF printer is a good example, it does not at all rely on hardware it is just a fake printer that is completely software. It came built into Linux Mint, and all it ever returned was a blank page. Now if that is not a great cock up I don't know what is. Said software failed to work in two different versions of Mint. Yet said software is being distributed and pre-installed on all versions of Mint as a built in function. Which basically tells me that this distribution is a joke. I would not be surprised if my thread was removed from the forum. Although it has to be said the Mint guys Were the more genuine I found out of all the distributions.

Yes Ubuntu is owned by a company, and that company is very far up its own arse. To think I had to search for the executable associated with the shutdown button that had disappeared from the desktop, as though it was a lost data file. That is what a professional Linux distribution is like apparently.when I asked where all my programs were and where the program menu was, I was laughed at and told that menus are a thing of the past. well forgive me for not remembering off the top of my head all of the hundreds of programs I may have installed and not even know about because they came pre-installed.

[Bored@Work]

so developers dont have to constantly aim at a moving target.

Developers like you could get their lazy arse up, and spend a few minutes to read the standardisation information.

Linux does not have a standard kernel API/ABI. From what I understand, this is an edict from Linus himself. I can understand why companies are not keen to develop drivers for Linux when the very next point kernel release could break the driver.

Again bullshit. The kernel ABI is specified. It is essentially what GCC for a particular platform provides (calling conventions, byte order, etc.). The API is specified per main kernel version. Which isn't different compared to Windows, where MS changes the driver interface with major releases, and even sometimes in between.

Interestingly, for a lot of hardware one doesn't even have to provide a kernel driver. For example, most USB devices can be driven from the user space. And that library hasn't changed for ages.

There are two reasons companies shitting their pants about providing Linux drivers.

1) They come in close contact with GPL software, and as Microsoft FUD has told them, the GPL is anti-american and viral.

2) The driver distribution model is not the Windows model. Under Windows a company writes a driver, bundles it with the hardware, throws it over the fence to the customers and let it rot. When Microsoft once again changes the driver interface they ask you to buy new hardware with new drivers.

Under Linux it is expected to get your arse up,  get your driver in the kernel tree, play nice with the other kids, and maintain your driver code properly. If you don't maintain your driver you get thrown out of the tree sooner or later. But even if you are no longer in the main tree, you could use DKMS.

[codeboy2k]

Under Linux it is expected to get your arse up,  get your driver in the kernel tree, play nice with the other kids, and maintain your driver code properly. If you don't maintain your driver you get thrown out of the tree sooner or later. But even if you are no longer in the main tree, you could use DKMS.

This aspect of linux I used to like, about 15 years ago, but not anymore.  It's a bitch to configure now, there is TOO friggen many drivers in the kernel these days.

It's not hard to answer NO to most things during a configure, and now I try to keep .config files around for various different setups and make oldconfig alot...
but I wish the configuration system was overhauled, and I was able to chose and/or mark things I never want to see, as I'll never have those devices in my systems ...ever.  Or be able to setup sub-systems that I can pre-select during configuration.

DKMS is fantastic.  My opinion is that as many drivers as possible should be moved out of the kernel tree and over to DKMS; these days, I don't even want to see drivers that I don't care about, and if I do care about them, I'll pull what I actually want and install it with DKMS.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Simon, I think your post may have perhaps been considered YART. Please look here.

http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=199&t=71583&sid=a294831b309764fda70acfb8c37aa4f4

There are many suggestions, and the issue claims to be solved but maybe you've given up. I hope not.

[Simon]

what is a YART ?

From that thread it looks like the issue is a year old and still unresolved. I tried finding alternative pdf printers in the repository but it had no alternative. so again I have to say - what a joke.

The performance of mint was also poor because it is based on ubuntu and given that poor performance and the instability of the faster version of mint I cannot rely on it for my main system.