KiCad vs. Diptrace vs. TARGET3001! vs. others

[ezalys]

Hey all,

I recall a few threads comparing KiCad and Diptrace a while back, but both have evolved pretty substantially so it doesn't really feel like a fair comparison anymore. Can someone out there compare KiCad and Diptrace who has worked with them recently? A comparison with other sub-$500 EDA software would also be very helpful! I remember trying target 3001! a while ago and liking it.

[nctnico]

What kind of boards do you want to design with the PCB package? Do the boards need to be assembled professionally by an assembler?

[ezalys]

Two and four layer boards. Relatively simple stuff. I might have them assembled at some point but for the moment I just use a hot plate and stencil or even just drag soldering.

[ezalys]

Most of the stuff is analog and power electronics. I do a lot of RF... microstrip, DXF import, controlled impedance and all that would be very nice to have but I understand if it's not realistic and I'd have to hack it in these lower end programs.

[bson]

I'm pretty sure KiCad will only import DXF for outlines, slots, silk, and as a general purpose user placement canvas.  While I think you can import it to a copper layer, it won't inherently be part of a net, but it might be possible to wing it by running a trace through it.

[MarkF]

I tried KiCad.  But found it too difficult to use.

I have been using Diptrace for personnel projects for several years now.  I found it easy to learn and use.
However, the free version is only 2 layers and 500 pins.  Which meets my needs.
I don't do imports but here is a screenshot of the Diptrace menu.

   

[jeremy]

Yes, kicad cannot import DXF to copper afaik. It’s the one feature keeping me from changing away from diptrace. Although I still really like diptrace, I just wish it had push and shove routing

[Doctorandus_P]

Quite a lot happened in the last 5 years.

KiCad can easily import graphics (DXF or SVG) onto a copper layer, and you can even assign a net name to graphics to integrate it better with DRC rules and clearances and such.

I also saw the screenshot of import of Gerbers into the PCB editor of Diptrace. KiCad does not have that function exactly, but KiCad can create a PCB file (with all layers) from a set of Gerber files. Similar functionality, just different approach.

Diptrace has also just now announced it has push and shofe capability now.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/diptrace/push-and-shove-router-is-available/?topicseen

[DerekG]

Attached (below) are the current PCB Import & Export filters for DipTrace V5.

Like all filters, sometimes they are not perfect. Even Altium could not get perfect import filters for PCAD (which Altium bought several decades ago).

[Smokey]

I see PCAD is listed for both import and export??  does that actually work?  I can't see that getting used very much.

[Doctorandus_P]

Like all filters, sometimes they are not perfect. Even Altium could not get perfect import filters for PCAD (which Altium bought several decades ago).

Altium does not even attempt to make good software. Their main goal is to make revenue for shareholders, their software is a sideshow.

[janoc]

Yes, kicad cannot import DXF to copper afaik. It’s the one feature keeping me from changing away from diptrace. Although I still really like diptrace, I just wish it had push and shove routing

That's false. Of course it can import it:


And there is always the indirect method for anything complicated/requiring mechanical CAD interop (e.g. complex board outlines, 3D models, etc.) - the excellent KiCAD StepUp workbench for FreeCAD:

https://github.com/easyw/kicadStepUpMod

I wonder why you don't download the software and try it out to see whether the feature you need is there or not instead of guessing? It is not like KiCAD costs money or requires 3 days of work to install.

[janoc]

I'm pretty sure KiCad will only import DXF for outlines, slots, silk, and as a general purpose user placement canvas.  While I think you can import it to a copper layer, it won't inherently be part of a net, but it might be possible to wing it by running a trace through it.

You can import it on a copper layer. Of course, it won't be a part of any net because it is not associated with anything on the board. But that is easily fixable by selecting the imported geometry, going into the properties and assigning the desired net.

Unfortunately it needs to be done track segment by track segment for whatever reason - KiCAD doesn't seem to be able to edit multiple segments at once, at least not change the net (it can change trace width or via size for ex. but not net assignment). Otherwise a bit of scripting/editing of the PCB file would fix it as well. It is also likely the upcoming KiCAD 9 will allow this from the UI directly.

[Doctorandus_P]

I'm pretty sure KiCad will only import DXF for outlines, slots, silk, and as a general purpose user placement canvas.

 While I think you can import it to a copper layer, it won't inherently be part of a net, but it might be possible to wing it by running a trace through it.

I just verified it and imported a DXF line drawing on a copper layer. No problem at all. During the import you can assign a layer to which the graphics is to be imported. It gets imported as a "group" (similar to a "block")

Up to KiCad V7 KiCad had a clear distinction between "copper" (tracks zones) and "graphics" (lines, polylines, text, etc), and except for a hack for "net ties" graphics were never part of a net. But this changed in KiCad V8 (now almost a year old). In KiCad V8 you can select a graphic item, open it's properties window and then assign a net name. And such graphic items are recognized by DRC as valid connections. This makes the distinction between tracks and graphics a lot smaller.

KiCad is in active development, and each year some 50 to 80+ new features are added. It takes some effort to keep up with all these improvements. Each year a "Post Vx new features and development news" is created on the user forum. This is a locked thread, no discussions, only announcements, and each post is for a new features for the upcoming version.

https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v6-new-features-and-development-news/
https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v7-new-features-and-development-news/
https://forum.kicad.info/t/post-v8-new-features-and-development-news/

[Doctorandus_P]

Unfortunately it needs to be done track segment by track segment for whatever reason - KiCAD doesn't seem to be able to edit multiple segments at once, at least not change the net (it can change trace width or via size for ex. but not net assignment). Otherwise a bit of scripting/editing of the PCB file would fix it as well. It is also likely the upcoming KiCAD 9 will allow this from the UI directly.

You can select multiple graphics items, and then edit their properties to set a net name. If a selection contains both graphic items and tracks, you can also edit their properties and change the net name for all of them,

At the moment you can't edit properties of a group, unless you enter the group first. This is understandable. It is probably desirable to be able to have a method to change at least some properties of items in a group (such as net name or layer) without entering the group first. Maybe this has already been implemented. I have not spend much time in keeping track of the new features for the upcoming KiCad V9.

[janoc]

You can select multiple graphics items, and then edit their properties to set a net name. If a selection contains both graphic items and tracks, you can also edit their properties and change the net name for all of them,

At the moment you can't edit properties of a group, unless you enter the group first. This is understandable. It is probably desirable to be able to have a method to change at least some properties of items in a group (such as net name or layer) without entering the group first. Maybe this has already been implemented. I have not spend much time in keeping track of the new features for the upcoming KiCad V9.

Changing the net on multiple elements at once didn't work for me in 8.0.8. I have ungrouped the segments first, if you have a group you are editing the properties of the group and not of the elements of the group.

If I  click the imported track segments one by one, I can edit properties and change the net. If I select multiple segments at once, pressing "E" does nothing and there is also no "Properties" in the context menu either. So I am not sure how did you manage to do it. 

Single segment selected:


Two segments selected:

[Doctorandus_P]

It does indeed not show the properties in the context menu, but you can first enable: PCB Editor / View / Show Properties Manager, and then you can select a new net name for multiple selected items

[tooki]

Yes, kicad cannot import DXF to copper afaik. It’s the one feature keeping me from changing away from diptrace. Although I still really like diptrace, I just wish it had push and shove routing

That's false. Of course it can import it:
(Attachment Link)

And there is always the indirect method for anything complicated/requiring mechanical CAD interop (e.g. complex board outlines, 3D models, etc.) - the excellent KiCAD StepUp workbench for FreeCAD:

https://github.com/easyw/kicadStepUpMod

I wonder why you don't download the software and try it out to see whether the feature you need is there or not instead of guessing? It is not like KiCAD costs money or requires 3 days of work to install.

This reply is a great example of why you need to read the whole thread before responding — and pay attention to the date stamps on posts.


(Jeremy’s statement was correct at the time it was written, and Doctorandus_P had already documented the addition of that feature in a more recent reply.)

[janoc]

Mea culpa. Didn't notice that was an old reply.

However, I did learn something new - the trick with the property manager I didn't know as most of the time the manager is completely redundant.