Author Topic: New work-in-progress EDA package!  (Read 17266 times)

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Online nctnico

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #50 on: January 24, 2018, 09:01:37 pm »
Quote
Another thing I didn't figure out how to do (or don't know if it's possible) is to modify parts values directly from the schematics. For instance, changing a resistor from 10k to 20k. The value field is always grayed out. Changing the part completely when you just want to change a value is a royal pain.
That's why I made changing parts a low-effort operation: Use the tool "assign part" to change the component's part, no need to re-add the resistor. Having a generic 12k 0603 resistor without any part number associated with it is worthless for the BOM (BOM export still missing/WIP).
Better keep it that way! Just changing values on parts is very bad practise because you can never create an accurate BOM without also changing the manufacturer's part number and other things like the footprint, etc. Keep in mind that a component is way more than just a value, symbol and a footprint.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2018, 11:16:23 pm »

I played around with it a bit...

First of all :

One thing that annoys the snot out of me ( or : i can't find how to do it .. ) is command retention.

schematic symbol editor : invoke command. lets say Draw Line.  I click left mouse , click left mouse somwhere else ,click right mouse somewhere else to end operation.
To draw another line i need to reinvoke DL.

That should be changed to :
click RMB : terminate current drawing operation but retain current command. Only when you click it again (rmb) or hit <esc> do you fall out of the DL command.

to draw two lines :

DL
lmb -> rmb terminates current line
lmb -> rmb terminates current line
rmb : terminates dl since no line drawing is in effect


Cosmetics : i want to adjust all colors of the UI. i am colorblind and some of the colors in use are VERY confusing. i also want a full size cursor ...

Editing. when clicking a line the line highlights but i cannot move it unless i invoke a command... that's not good. you need to strive to have a UI that needs as few possible clicks/ keyboard hits ... if i grab a line i should be able ot move it. if i  grab a line by an endpoint : i move that endpoint and attached lines rubberband. if i grab a line in the center : the line splits and a new joint is inserted. if i grab the line anywhere else : the line moves rubberbanding the endpoints.

editing seems to be not possible on 'groups'. i selected a bunch of lines and changed width : only one line changed width ... until i clicked the checkbox. there is no need for the checkbox. simple apply immediately to the selection.
there is no 'cancle for edits...' i would expect if i hit <esc> it does not apply the changes.

Undo / redo ddbuttons ? we really need a small ribbon of buttons at the top ... just having keystrokes is .. meh ...
Help : it is not immediately obvious that the key sequence list is actually scrollable.. not until you hover over the edge of that window... that is bloody annoying. don't make too fancy UI's. this is not a webpage.

Selection : there is no need for selection modifiers : select from top left to bottom right : only elements fully included. select from bottom right to top up  : select 'touching' elements.
i would also like to see a select line command : instead of drawing a box : you draw a line. anyting that is touched by that line is selected.

i would like to see a 'subtract' from selection just like holding down CTRL lets you 'add' to an existing selection i would want ALT to subtract from a selection ( or have a toggle operation. : when holding CTRL : if the item clicked is selected : deselect it from the group. )

command reentry : i really want to see command re-entry. the ability to invoke an operation while doing another. i am in the middle of drawing a line and see something is in the way : i can invoke the move operation : select an object or group : move them end when ending the move i am back in the drawing operation at the last coordinate and can continue what i was doing.

there is a rotate and mirror. i would like to see a flip around X and flip around Y operation.

selection behavior is not consistent. if i try to grab a line using a 'box drawing' operation : i need to trap at least half of the line to include it. on a pin : the moment i touch it it grabs ...

move operation : i would like ot be able to pick the 'origin' now it picks wherever the mouse is as origin. think like this : Move ( m)  from here (LMB)  to there (lmb)

i do not like the way you build parts. you need to define the pins first in one editor, then enter another editor to place them. why can't this happen on-the-fly ? 



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Offline free_electron

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2018, 11:33:39 pm »
Schematic editor : same comment as in symbol editor : retain the invoked command ! colors . cursor sizes ...

Place part : i pick a part in the browser . click in the schematic to place it. and that's it. What if i need the same one again ? .. i need to do it all over ... that is not good.
this should be :
PP -> pick part in browser -> click 'PLACE' (or hit <ENTER>)  LMB : place instance. LMB : place another instance , LMB : place another instance RMB :end of placing but retain command-> go back into part browser to pick something else. <ESC> end part placement

moving parts needs to happen without command invocation. holding down the part and moving the mouse should move the part.

part rotation : when rotating the part 90 degrees you also rotate the designator and value 90 degrees. those should stay horizontal....

part properties. can we make other parameters visible. for example in a capacitor i specify working voltage ... so i want to see C1 10uF 25V  for a resistor i may wan to see 1K 1%

hitting <space> : again it is not immediately obvious that popup is scrollable... make that scrollbar visible ! that 'autodimming' and hiding-themselves scrollbar is annoying ! UI elements should not play hide and seek.

flip around x and y axis commands are helpful

'stealing' an existing part.   assign the <INSERT> key on the keyboard to make a duplicate of whatever is under the mouse cursor.

so if i point to a capacitor and hit 'insert' it makes a duplicate of that exact part , rests the deisgnator of the copy and lets me place that part with LMB. that speeds up drawing schematics as you often need more of the same ( like adding decoupling caps or resistors as your schematic grows )


Overall comment : The basic 'manipulation' of objects is lacking functionality.
click a part to select. ok
click something else picks this part : deselect all others : ok.
hold CTRL : adds to existing selection. : ok
how do i 'subtract' from selection ? CTRL should be a 'toggle' operation : if part click is not selected : add it to selection. if it is already selected 'subtract' it from selection.

use the way many other cad programs work
drag top left to bottom right : only elements fully enclosed are selected / added to selection (<CTRL> key)
drag bottom right to top left : only elements 'touching' rectangle are selected or added <CTRL key>

moving a part or selected items needs to be commandless.: hold LMB and move. release LMB to 'drop'. if you change your mind prior to dropping : hit <ESC> to cancel operation.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 11:43:03 pm by free_electron »
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2018, 03:36:19 pm »
Quote
Another thing I didn't figure out how to do (or don't know if it's possible) is to modify parts values directly from the schematics. For instance, changing a resistor from 10k to 20k. The value field is always grayed out. Changing the part completely when you just want to change a value is a royal pain.
That's why I made changing parts a low-effort operation: Use the tool "assign part" to change the component's part, no need to re-add the resistor. Having a generic 12k 0603 resistor without any part number associated with it is worthless for the BOM (BOM export still missing/WIP).
Better keep it that way! Just changing values on parts is very bad practise because you can never create an accurate BOM without also changing the manufacturer's part number and other things like the footprint, etc. Keep in mind that a component is way more than just a value, symbol and a footprint.

That's right when you're at (or close to) the manufacturing stage, and/or when you're modifying an existing design.
When you're at the early design stage, it can get pretty annoying. Not all parts are linked to any specific manufacturer at this stage, especially passives.
You may also want to use the schematics editor just to draw some schematics for illustration purposes and not for manufacturing purposes.

Even for manufacturing, not everyone/every company will have the same way of generatings BOMs.
In many cases, the BOMs are post-processed and verified before sending orders anyway, so to be able to really make use of this feature on a large scale, it would be more interesting to be able to link your parts to some kind of ERP database, instead of maintaining your own, CAD-centric database, which is a whole other endeavour.

Trapping users in just one way of doing things just because you think it's right is rarely a good idea.

One way that I would find a lot more flexible would be to allow the user to change values/attributes at will, but automatically check them against manufacturers parts numbers when generating the BOM.
In case of a detected discrepancy (or the absence of any manufacturer's PN for a given part), the software would allow you to search your database and assign one or create a new entry if none is a match.

Additionally, for some parts (again, especially for passives), it may be more relevant to be able to attach some kind of specification sheet rather than tying it to a specific vendor. Whether you work at a company that has a buying department or you subcontract buying your components by the company doing your board assembly, you don't always decide yourself what the final PN for each part will be (unless you have extremely specific requirements such as in safety related products), and I think that short specs for this kind of parts is a lot more productive and to the point than specific part numbers. Of course, you may use the MPN field for your own spec sheet ID in this case, but that may get confusing.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Offline LukasTopic starter

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #54 on: January 26, 2018, 07:03:08 pm »
First of all, thanks for your comments on the interaction side of things, your the first one to provide reasonable feed back in that regard.


I played around with it a bit...

First of all :

One thing that annoys the snot out of me ( or : i can't find how to do it .. ) is command retention.

schematic symbol editor : invoke command. lets say Draw Line.  I click left mouse , click left mouse somwhere else ,click right mouse somewhere else to end operation.
To draw another line i need to reinvoke DL.

That should be changed to :
click RMB : terminate current drawing operation but retain current command. Only when you click it again (rmb) or hit <esc> do you fall out of the DL command.

to draw two lines :

DL
lmb -> rmb terminates current line
lmb -> rmb terminates current line
rmb : terminates dl since no line drawing is in effect

I got your point, looks reasonably easy to implement. There are two ways this feature may come into existence:
 a) RMB resets the tool, so it's just like you started it, key presses will go to the tool.
 b) RMB puts the tool into a "floating state", LMB will make the tool active again, but pressing a key will make the tool exit and start the requested tool.

In any case, ESC will exit the tool. Is that about what you're after?

Cosmetics : i want to adjust all colors of the UI. i am colorblind and some of the colors in use are VERY confusing. i also want a full size cursor ...

May take some time, but is certainly doable. Can you elaborate what you're envisioning by a full size cursor? A crosshair that extends to the edges?

Editing. when clicking a line the line highlights but i cannot move it unless i invoke a command... that's not good. you need to strive to have a UI that needs as few possible clicks/ keyboard hits ... if i grab a line i should be able ot move it. if i  grab a line by an endpoint : i move that endpoint and attached lines rubberband. if i grab a line in the center : the line splits and a new joint is inserted. if i grab the line anywhere else : the line moves rubberbanding the endpoints.

Seems doable.

editing seems to be not possible on 'groups'. i selected a bunch of lines and changed width : only one line changed width ... until i clicked the checkbox. there is no need for the checkbox. simple apply immediately to the selection.
there is no 'cancle for edits...' i would expect if i hit <esc> it does not apply the changes.

I never liked property editors that display placeholder values when selecting multiple objects, that's why the property editor always displays a specific object with the possibility to propagate the value to the other objects. Maybe this can be turned into a setting.

Undo / redo ddbuttons ? we really need a small ribbon of buttons at the top ... just having keystrokes is .. meh ...
Help : it is not immediately obvious that the key sequence list is actually scrollable.. not until you hover over the edge of that window... that is bloody annoying. don't make too fancy UI's. this is not a webpage.
The hidden by default scrollbars are a Gtk thing. IMO it's a sane decision since it reduces visual clutter. You can get back the always-visible scroll bars by creating the environment Variable GTK_OVERLAY_SCROLLING and set it to 0.


Selection : there is no need for selection modifiers : select from top left to bottom right : only elements fully included. select from bottom right to top up  : select 'touching' elements.
i would also like to see a select line command : instead of drawing a box : you draw a line. anyting that is touched by that line is selected.
I've always found the selection behaviour based on the direction of the box to be a bit counter-intuitive, but an "auto" selection qualifier should be possible. The "paint" selection tool (available from the selection menu at the bottom left corner) does select by line.

i would like to see a 'subtract' from selection just like holding down CTRL lets you 'add' to an existing selection i would want ALT to subtract from a selection ( or have a toggle operation. : when holding CTRL : if the item clicked is selected : deselect it from the group. )

I had that on my mind for some time, but couldn't motivate myself to actually implement it. Thanks for the nudge.

command reentry : i really want to see command re-entry. the ability to invoke an operation while doing another. i am in the middle of drawing a line and see something is in the way : i can invoke the move operation : select an object or group : move them end when ending the move i am back in the drawing operation at the last coordinate and can continue what i was doing.
I kinda expected to hear that from you ;) I'm afraid, but this feature is unlikely to come to life in the near future, since tools will then have to deal with the document being modified behind their back.

there is a rotate and mirror. i would like to see a flip around X and flip around Y operation.
Suggestions for shortcuts?

selection behavior is not consistent. if i try to grab a line using a 'box drawing' operation : i need to trap at least half of the line to include it. on a pin : the moment i touch it it grabs ...
By default, an object is selected as soon as its center (the diamond) is inside the selection box.

move operation : i would like ot be able to pick the 'origin' now it picks wherever the mouse is as origin. think like this : Move ( m)  from here (LMB)  to there (lmb)

What's the difference between these two? Currently, you specify the origin first, then start the tool. Both interactions allow for the same operations.

i do not like the way you build parts. you need to define the pins first in one editor, then enter another editor to place them. why can't this happen on-the-fly ?
Symbols aren't the source of truth for pin definitions, the units are. Somehow tacking the unit editor onto the symbol editor to enable simultaneous editing should be within the realm of possibility.
 

Offline LukasTopic starter

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #55 on: January 26, 2018, 07:21:27 pm »
Schematic editor : same comment as in symbol editor : retain the invoked command ! colors . cursor sizes ...

Easy job, both editors share large amounts of code, so some of the points you mention for symbol and schematic editor will get fixed at once.


Place part : i pick a part in the browser . click in the schematic to place it. and that's it. What if i need the same one again ? .. i need to do it all over ... that is not good.
this should be :
PP -> pick part in browser -> click 'PLACE' (or hit <ENTER>)  LMB : place instance. LMB : place another instance , LMB : place another instance RMB :end of placing but retain command-> go back into part browser to pick something else. <ESC> end part placement

Great idea!


part rotation : when rotating the part 90 degrees you also rotate the designator and value 90 degrees. those should stay horizontal....
This happens for symbols such as resistor and capacitor since these include information on how the text should be placed for all orientations. It's up to the one who draws the symbol...

part properties. can we make other parameters visible. for example in a capacitor i specify working voltage ... so i want to see C1 10uF 25V  for a resistor i may wan to see 1K 1%
Parts already include parameters such as working voltage, but displaying these on the schematic is still yet to come.

'stealing' an existing part.   assign the <INSERT> key on the keyboard to make a duplicate of whatever is under the mouse cursor.

so if i point to a capacitor and hit 'insert' it makes a duplicate of that exact part , rests the deisgnator of the copy and lets me place that part with LMB. that speeds up drawing schematics as you often need more of the same ( like adding decoupling caps or resistors as your schematic grows )

So basically, copy-paste with the addition that paste can paste more than once? Easy to implement
 

Online nctnico

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #56 on: January 26, 2018, 09:16:28 pm »
Quote
Another thing I didn't figure out how to do (or don't know if it's possible) is to modify parts values directly from the schematics. For instance, changing a resistor from 10k to 20k. The value field is always grayed out. Changing the part completely when you just want to change a value is a royal pain.
That's why I made changing parts a low-effort operation: Use the tool "assign part" to change the component's part, no need to re-add the resistor. Having a generic 12k 0603 resistor without any part number associated with it is worthless for the BOM (BOM export still missing/WIP).
Better keep it that way! Just changing values on parts is very bad practise because you can never create an accurate BOM without also changing the manufacturer's part number and other things like the footprint, etc. Keep in mind that a component is way more than just a value, symbol and a footprint.
That's right when you're at (or close to) the manufacturing stage, and/or when you're modifying an existing design.
When you're at the early design stage, it can get pretty annoying. Not all parts are linked to any specific manufacturer at this stage, especially passives.
Make the database right first! Going through all the parts and checking them (even with an automated process) is a real PITA. I used to have a colleague who changed parts values instead of the underlying parts. That caused quite a bit of grief when debugging boards because the parts didn't got updated and the wrong values end up on the assembled boards.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2018, 04:55:42 pm »
Quote
I got your point, looks reasonably easy to implement. There are two ways this feature may come into existence:
 a) RMB resets the tool, so it's just like you started it, key presses will go to the tool.
 b) RMB puts the tool into a "floating state", LMB will make the tool active again, but pressing a key will make the tool exit and start the requested tool.
Quote

The idea is that a tool stays active until it is terminated.

Activation : command invoke using keyboard, or graphical menu
De-activation : RMB when no operation is in progress, or <ESC>

So drawing a line :

follow along with the command sequence:

Activate tool : DL : the tool now waits for you to pick the first point indicated by LMB
begin a line : LMB
add a line segment : LMB
add another line segment : LMB
end line segment : RMB
At this point the tool is waiting for one of two things :
  - the user begins a new line by clicking LMB
  - the user exits the tool by clicking RMB again.

The state machine is very simple
- invoke tool : state = in_idle
- if state = in_idle
     if event =  RMB -> exit tool
     if event = <ESC> -> exit tool
     if event = LMB -> set origin , state = indraw
- if state - in_draw
   if event = lmb -> add segment
   if event = rmb -> end segment : state = in_idle
   if event =<ESC> -> abort draw (delete entire line): state = idle
   if event = <backspace> -> cancel last segment ( if not first one )



Cosmetics : i want to adjust all colors of the UI. i am colorblind and some of the colors in use are VERY confusing. i also want a full size cursor ...

full size cursor is a crosshair that extends from the edges of the viewport.

May take some time, but is certainly doable. Can you elaborate what you're envisioning by a full size cursor? A crosshair that extends to the edges?

[quito]I never liked property editors that display placeholder values when selecting multiple objects, that's why the property editor always displays a specific object with the possibility to propagate the value to the other objects. Maybe this can be turned into a setting.

so if i have a wire : how can i change the entire wire to a certain color / thickness ? that is the idea of group selecting.
Same thing if i want to change the font or size of a number of netnames. i am NOT going to do that one by one ... Select all the ones you want to affect and do the edit in one shot...

Quote
reduces visual clutter.
scrollbars are NOT visual clutter ... i hate objects that play hide and seek. There is nothing more aggravating than going to a website : click somewhere on the screen and then find out they were 'still rendering' and what is there now all of a sudden 'shifted' a bit and you end up somewhere totally different than intended. UI objects should not move themselves nor hide themselves.


Quote
I've always found the selection behaviour based on the direction of the box to be a bit counter-intuitive, but an "auto" selection qualifier should be possible. The "paint" selection tool (available from the selection menu at the bottom left corner) does select by line.
all the cad tools work like that. solidworks, autocad, fusion360 , inventor . people using cad expect that from the tools ...

Quote
there is a rotate and mirror. i would like to see a flip around X and flip around Y operation.
Suggestions for shortcuts? 
Quote
  X and Y ( flip around X and flip around y axis ... )

Quote
move operation : i would like ot be able to pick the 'origin' now it picks wherever the mouse is as origin. think like this : Move ( m)  from here (LMB)  to there (lmb)

What's the difference between these two? Currently, you specify the origin first, then start the tool. Both interactions allow for the same operations.
Quote
now i need to point first to what i want to move. what if what i want to move is a selection (multiple objects)? and i want to specify the origin to be a specific object within the selection ? and the target to be another specific object within the same selection .... exmaple: you need to extend a 16 pin footprint to a 20 pin footprint : select the right 4 pads , including silkscreen and courtyard. copy command. click on the second third last pad from the right as origin. click on last pad as target.
the part is now extended. i don't need to measure anything. all i need to do now is delete 2 floating lines. i use the inter object dimensions as pick and place points ( i assume the 'pick tool' will gravitate to center of pads, center of lines and end.


i do not like the way you build parts. you need to define the pins first in one editor, then enter another editor to place them. why can't this happen on-the-fly ?
Symbols aren't the source of truth for pin definitions, the units are. Somehow tacking the unit editor onto the symbol editor to enable simultaneous editing should be within the realm of possibility.
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Offline LukasTopic starter

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #58 on: January 30, 2020, 09:22:08 pm »
Just in case someone's still following this thread: There's a new thread for the 1.0 release over at Horizon EDA Version 1.0!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 12:46:26 am by Lukas »
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #59 on: January 30, 2020, 11:27:42 pm »
please correct your link... quote and copy paste this... Horizon EDA Version 1.0! btw it looks interesting, but wait until i can port it to my 64 bits machine and have time playing with it.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2020, 12:18:16 am »
I just downloaded the latest version (1.1.0) from the releases on GH and after installing, I created a "pool" and it promptly crashed with an OpenGL error, my OpenGL version on my dev laptop seems to be version 4.1 and below, what version of OGL does it require to run?!?

It seems it won't do anything but crash, giving the same OGL error, perhaps installing the latest NVIDIA drivers to the laptop would help but I don't really want to mess around with the graphics drivers if I can help it as last time I had to roll back to the Dell drivers as the NVIDIA ones made it run slower.

I have run the GL extensions viewer 6 test and it tests fine all the way up to OGL 4.1 then 4.2 onwards it just says unsupported for my driver.
 

Offline LukasTopic starter

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2020, 10:47:30 am »
Can you post a screenshot of the error? That's the first time, I've heard of OpenGL issues on nvidia, since their drivers are usually quite good.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2020, 08:57:38 pm »
Hi Lukas,

Yes, the first one is after selecting the base directory for the pool and clicking the "Create" button, the 2nd one is after I press the "Ignore" button, after this it just crashes with "this program is not responding" etc.

I haven't found anything else that doesn't work on this chip with OGL, unless it requires a newer version or has missing extensions that are only available on newer cards etc.

If i load it back up and create a new project, it allows me to even though the pool is empty, every button I click on afterwards (sch, pcb etc) does the same, shows that message, then crashes.

Cheers
 

Offline LukasTopic starter

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #63 on: May 14, 2020, 02:20:21 pm »
No idea what causes this, you're not using remote desktop or anything similar? Gtk is sometimes a bit picky when it gets to OpenGL on windows...

When opening the schematic/boar editor and they crash, you should get a yellow bar in the project manager window with a button "show output". What's in the output window?
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #64 on: May 14, 2020, 06:31:38 pm »
Hi Lukas,
I've ran other things with GTK and it seems OK, not sure if they were using OGL though, and no remote desktop / VNC etc, just straight windows desktop.

No yellow bar, just crashes the program same as already described, does it store a log externally ?
Thanks
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: New work-in-progress EDA package!
« Reply #65 on: May 14, 2020, 06:34:29 pm »
Hang on, I managed to stop it crashing completely and go back to the screen,
stdout shows nothing,
stderr shows:
Quote
(horizon-eda:12264): GLib-GIO-WARNING **: 19:29:43.859: win32 session dbus binary not found: C:\Program Files\Horizon EDA\\gdbus.exe

that is all that it says.
 


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