PCB Design Pricing

[Wilksey]

Hi,

So I was answering a few support questions on the Facebook KiCAD group (or one of them) and I got a private message asking if i'd be interested in joining a "team", after probing a bit further turns out the person I was speaking to has no idea how to use KiCAD and wants someone to do the work for them, so I read between the lines and was correct in thinking that they did not have schematic or parts list or anything, so I said it would probably take a week and a bit, so 60+ hours depending on how "complete" the project was it might be longer, but wouldn't know until they sent me the information, and I said I would charge £50 an hour for design work, which I thought was reasonable considering it costs nearly 3 x that for a local PCB assembler to offer the same service.  Apparently the business partner wasn't happy, "blew a fuse" I think was the term used (for both cost and timescale) gave some "we're only a startup" story.

Anyway, after reading some other posts on here and online, it seems as though I might be charging too little, but can someone tell me if I am being unreasonable with the offer or if they are just trying to cheap out.   

I also got requests after asking me how to do certain things with the schematic editor in KiCAD, but the person has already admitted they have no idea how to operate it and is using a really old version, so I get the feeling they are trying to squeeze me for knowledge, which I am being very cautious about how much "free" knowledge they are getting from me.

Cheers and TIA!

[ataradov]

You are charging way too little. If they don't jump on that price, you should walk. No good will come out of trying to talk to clueless startup kids.

At the same time I provide all the knowledge I can as long as it does not involve me doing any of the work. The end result is almost always the same - the still can't do stuff themselves. You need to have a clue to squeeze and absorb knowledge.

[Wilksey]

Thanks Alex,
Yes, I am not going any cheaper, I have better things to do with my time that make someone else rich (other than my current boss that is!  )
I don't mind giving advice, and I even sent a particular layout that they wanted, only took 5 mins to do so I wasn't too bothered, but as they are on the oldest version available and I am on the newest it never worked correctly, so I basically said tough, sent a screenshot of what it should look like and if they want to update to the newest version then the file I sent them will work.

I probed as to why they didn't use a tool they can use and they said that it was too expensive.  The tool they are used to is £350 a license.  Then they said something about only having old hardware not being able to run the latest version of KiCAD.

Good to know it is them who are trying it on!

Cheers

[twospoons]

Thats the problem with many "start-ups". They're usually started by people who have no clue just how much engineering goes into a product, or how much an engineers time is worth.  They're also underfunded most of the time, so if they balk at your price they're either not serious, or you're going to have trouble getting paid.

I love it when I quote for a job and they dont flinch - you know they've done their homework, and doing things right instead of cheap isn't going to be a problem.

[Wilksey]

Yes, well, I wouldn't hand over any design work until I had been paid, and i'd make them sign a payment term sheet to say when "x" has been done they pay me "£xx".

What makes it even more absurd is the person I spoke to has stated they they have designed products for a few high end audio companies and it only took "one or two days", can't be that high end then!    I don't believe most of what has been said tbh.

[ataradov]

In cases like this you should be glad you are not being asked to work for "exposure"

[Wilksey]

Well when they opened with "do you want to be part of the team", I thought here we go! lol

[AndyC_772]

A good design engineer *is* part of the team. Whether you're an employee or an independent contractor doesn't really change that; you still need to get to know the people you're working for, the idea they have, and their target application.

[Wilksey]

Hi Andy,

Yes, but it wasn't meant like that, it was more like " I don't know what I am doing, you join the team and make the board for a low price, free preferably".

I've dealt with people like it before, always want something for nothing, when they can't even be arsed to update their stuff to run the latest software which is free, I asked why he didn't update he said he liked his current set up, then I get a bit lost for words!
 

[AndyC_772]

Ah, yes... I've had that too, and it's awkward.

The best thing you can do under those circumstances is provide a clear, itemised quote, explaining how long you expect each part of the process to take, and your hourly rate for any time you spend engaged on their project. Remember you're selling your time and expertise; I normally allow an initial meeting with any new customer for free, but charge for any time I spend on consultancy afterwards (whether I actually design something for them or not).

Be sure to also list those things which are *not* included in that quote, which may include technical support, design changes, approvals, interoperability testing, and anything else which can't really be defined until later in the project. This will help avoid misunderstandings later on.

At the end of the day you'll never compete with free or 'mates rates', and nor should you try to. Some companies are genuinely better off getting a keen hobbyist or engineering student to help them instead, and that's fine. When they genuinely need a professional service, they'll come back.

[Wilksey]

Thanks Andy,

Yes, I do provide a per hour charge and I state than any time is chargeable therefore I allow things like feature creep but at their own expense.

If I thought it was a serious gig then i'd engage more, this is more of a self proclaimed engineer, i.e. I used to do it back in the day and only charge £1000 for the entire project and get it done in a day or two.  Which I replied if you are capable of doing it yourself then go ahead, you'll save a ton of money.

I am not trying to compete with mates rates or am I willing to do it for free, I've stated that quite clearly to them already.

Let the saga continue!
Cheers

[SiliconWizard]

Which I replied if you are capable of doing it yourself then go ahead, you'll save a ton of money.

Which, unless they don't actually get any pay for their own job, is usually not true at all. It would cost someone "capable", but inexperienced, a lot more time, and the associated cost would end up a lot higher.

[Wilksey]

Yes, but it's their own time then, not mine, if they want to do it for free or peanuts themselves, then let them go ahead.

[rrinker]

 Sounds like you dodged a bullet there. "Don't have a computer capable of running a new version of KiCAD"? My work laptop is a dual core I5 with no discrete graphics and it rius KiCAD just fine. Most any fairly basic computer can run KiCAD. If they can't afford that - how can they afford to pay a designer? Even if they accepted your offer, which I agree, you were charging too little based on the information provided, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the check to come.
 And no schematic at all? Sounds like they were trying to get you to not just design the PCB, but design the whole thing. That's DEFINITELY worth way more than you were going to charge. Are they too poor to even afford some paper and pencils for their 'startup' to hand draw a schematic? Or does no one remember how to do that any more?

 I made that mistake in my younger days, undercharging for my skill (in IT work - I have an EE degree but only pretend to be one at home, on weekends, for personal projects. I ended up in IT a few months into my first job, and been here 30+ years). I now work for a consulting firm, have for the past 20+ years (name on my paychek has changed a few times, but I haven't gone job seeking) so side work is a conflict of interest now, but back then I was working internal for a company so I figured I could make some extra money providing help for some local small businesses who might not be able to afford the big support companies in the area. I had a few jobs and made a little money, but I also had a couple of nightmares, including a lawyer (I will NEVER work for a lawyer EVER again) who not only didn't pay me, but threatened to sue me for an ancient used computer that the hard drive failed in the day after I worked on their server. I really should have just left the first night when I saw all the past due notices for their office's electric bill sitting on the accountant's desk - if they don;t pay their electric bill, what chance do I have of being paid? Sure enough.. So I would work nights and weekends, but not have a lot to show for it, as I thought I was charging a good price, more than I made at my regular job, but far less than the local IT companies charged their clients. Never again. Not going to undervalue my worth.

[Wilksey]

Yes, I've told them a few home truths.

Apparently the machine in question is a Mac, not pretending to understand how it works but I'm sure it can run the latest version of KiCAD, it doesn't sound like an ancient Mac.

The only hope of non payment is small claims, they certainly wouldn't get the designs!

[AndyC_772]

And no schematic at all? Sounds like they were trying to get you to not just design the PCB, but design the whole thing. That's DEFINITELY worth way more than you were going to charge. Are they too poor to even afford some paper and pencils for their 'startup' to hand draw a schematic? Or does no one remember how to do that any more?

Be careful here... I had what I politely refer to as a "learning experience" some years ago with a new client who had a hand drawn schematic, and wanted it turning into a PCB.

I wasn't hired to review the schematic, but as I transcribed it into CAD it was impossible to miss the fact that it contained basic errors. It simply wouldn't work as designed, and as completely waste everyone's time and money with a board that would end up straight in the scrap bin, I pointed out the mistakes I'd found.

This in itself raises questions about what service I'm really providing, what I should be charging, and what responsibility I'm taking on for the overall success of the project. I could have taken the view that I'm being paid to design a PCB and nothing else, but that wouldn't have been in anyone's best interests in the long run. Besides, who wouldn't want the chance to fix their silly mistakes before rev A is even made?

You can probably fill in the rest. I got an earful for even suggesting that their design might be defective, the boards didn't work, and you can guess who got the blame.

Since then, I design my own schematics - or, at the very least, carry out a full review of anything I'm supplied by a customer.

[lutkeveld]

Never build on a broken foundation.

I have also had the experience of making a perfect layout for an imperfect schematic.
Always charge as if you are responsible for the schematic.

[Wilksey]

That is a difficult one as I found out myself, different situation, but someone designed the schematic and wanted me to do the layout, but the schematic was wrong, the project manager told me to stop picking fault and just "get on and make the board", these people have some grand misconception that every schematic editor has a "to PCB" button which should take a few hours at most to make a PCB from schematic, and why does it take weeks or more to draw "some lines".

They came from a software project so they didn't understand that you can't just "recompile" a board for essentially nothing, and that the lead time on the finished boards could be weeks depending how deep their pockets are.

Needless to say the MD went ballistic when the boards didn't work, and who got the blame?  Yup, me, but I had told the project manager to write everything down in an email or else i'd forget, yeah, well it was for my own arse covering than anything else, and it saved me no end of hassle.

So it went from raised voices at me in a small office to 20 sheets of A4 paper being printed off and thrust in the directors face to a very polite request if I would be able to fix the issues and get it sorted (in quick time) and the project manager got shuffled off elsewhere.
This was my full time employment, so is why I said it's different, but you take these "life lessons" with you.

[Wilksey]

Oho!  You'll love the latest correspondence.

Apparently, I am being unreasonable and using this kindly fellow as a "meal ticket" and if I "carry on like this" i'll end up with "ZERO!".

I thought we were pretty much done with the initial conversation but he keeps on coming back for more!  I told him if I worked to his prices i'd end up in negative equity so no thanks.

It's amusing and annoying at the same time, more annoying that there are people who genuinely think this way and amusing for everything else.
He has also started (not naming my name) posting his ramblings (with very bad grammar and spelling) on Facebook groups.  Trouble is, people on the groups are disagreeing with him! 

[SiliconWizard]

Ahah, from what you describe, this very much looks like your typical kiddies who think they can do serious business just because, you know, they have a couple ideas and they know how to use Facebook and Twitter. It's not even really exxagerated. Welcome to the 21st century.

[Wilksey]

Yes, sad but true, I've seen a few of them, didn't expect it from a 65 year old retired audio engineer though!

Ho Hum.

[james_s]

IMHO the only reason to work for a startup earning less than the going rate is the chance of a significant reward if the company takes off, goes public or gets acquired. If you're an independent contractor then there is nothing to be gained and no point in wasting your time. If they can't afford your rates let them figure it out on their own. KiCad will run fine on a 10 year old midrange PC so hardware is no excuse.

[AndyC_772]

Apparently, I am being unreasonable and using this kindly fellow as a "meal ticket" and if I "carry on like this" i'll end up with "ZERO!".

Has he explained why he doesn't just go to someone cheaper?

[Wilksey]

james_s, yes i've let him figure it out, he keeps messaging me with questions on how to do things, i've stopped answering him now, I am only doing a bit on the side, not worth it for me, it's not even my main income source, so i'd rather sit around and watch tv than work for nothing.

@AndyC_772, nope, I've told him his best bet is to find a fresh out of college student to do his dirty work, he might find cheap(er) labour there!  I think he has already been to a few others, i'm guessing he didn't like their pricing either, kept going on about "back in the day" how he would do an entire system for £1k - £1.5k, I asked him how long ago and to convert that into new money and add increase for demand, he ignored that question and started talking about how he burnt himself out doing so much and had a few heart attacks.

[james_s]

Yeah I wonder how much he paid a month in mortgage/rent, taxes, utilities and food. That 1.5k back then was probably a whole lot more money than it is now.

There's a place around here my friend did some freelance tech work for when he was trying to save up some money to move out of state. The guy was trying to pay him something not a lot more than minimum wage saying that's what he'd been paying for experienced techs. Yeah 15 years ago when the cost of living in this area was 1/3 what it is now.