Author Topic: PCB Reverse-Engineering  (Read 55880 times)

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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2015, 01:57:48 am »
To address @dds737's link to the Wavetek SF10 continuity meter which @Aurora had confirmed with the ebay Dutch seller that this item is sold out, here's a link to an article in EDN Magazine of a D-I-Y Milli-Ohm Squawker that functions somewhat similarly which anyone who's interested in RE can build:

http://www.edn.com/design/pc-board/4430376/Milliohm-Squawker-great-at-finding-shorts-and-reverse-engineering-PCBs

Functional description and schematic diagram (with accompanying component part numbers) are provided, so should make an interesting project for RE hobbyist or enthusiast.

Singapura  :)
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2015, 06:28:14 pm »
I have just bought a new patient that is in need of some TLC. It's a FLIR E2 thermal imaging camera that will not complete its boot sequence. This sounds like a case where I will do some reverse engineering of the design to establish exactly what is, or is not, doing what it should at start  :)

These FLIR cameras use multi layer PCB's so they can be a tad challenging but that makes them all the more fun for me. The camera sold for a song as it is faulty, so not too much money is at stake. The pay-off for me if I reverse engineer it and repair the fault is not just increased equipment value, it will also be the satisfaction of recovering such a nice piece of equipment from the 'grave', and the knowledge gained in the process. It also helps that I collect such cameras so I will then have a working example in my collection  ;D

I cannot wait for the new 'patient' to arrive. Hopefully next week.

Aurora 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2015, 06:32:42 pm by Aurora »
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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2015, 01:09:29 am »
@Aurora

The fault sounds very much like the FLIR PM570 thermal camera which you mentioned in your sixth post, but I'm sure there are other possible causes for failing to complete the boot sequence. Still, with your experience in the repair of FLIR camera equipment, I'm sure you'll be able to restore the new 'patient' of yours to full working condition.

Have fun and let us know the outcome!  :-+

Cheers!

Singapura
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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2015, 09:27:34 am »
General questions on trace/via/plane continuity testing.

Aurora's Wavetek SF10 continuity meter with the whiskers sounds like a fine piece of kit, but what are the voltages and currents that it uses?

What are the limits of continuity voltages and currents that a populated PCB can safely suffer?
We see V limits for device pins in datasheets, do you restrict continuity tests to these voltages?
What test voltages would we consider as "safe"?

My questions stem from this thread from last year:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-with-low-continuity-test-voltage/msg475506/#msg475506
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2015, 05:13:46 pm »
@tautech,

For info the SF10 has the following specs:

Voltage across probes: 0.5V

Current source maximum : 100uA

Continuity threshold: 10 Ohms

I would consider these specs to be very safe. The SF10 was designed to work with electronics.  An electricians continuity tester is often capable of delivering higher voltages and currents and so is not a good choice.

For continuity testing you want the p.d across the probes to be less than the normal switch on bias point for a silicon semiconductor. i.e. less than 0.6V. You also want the source current to be as low as feasible to avoid any thermal dissipation issues in a component that is sensitive to the probes p.d. 100uA is very safe. The threshold of continuity should be as low as reasonable for a continuity tester. It is not helpful if a continuity tester indicates continuity when in fact a low value resistor is in circuit (pull up resistor or load resistor) rather than a direct PCB track link. I would prefer the threshold to be around 1 Ohm but 10 Ohms is half of many multimeter thresholds, so the SF10 is not too bad in this respect.

If designing a continuity tester, you need to consider bias voltage effects and junction power dissipation if biased on. A pulsed continuity tester will have a lower dissipation in a junction depending upon PRF. Dealing with Germanium junctions can be a challenge with a continuity tester as only 0.2V is needed to bias such junctions on. This needs to be considered when using such a continuity testing tool.

Finally, a decent continuity tester should have a very fast response so a pulse stretcher may be needed. A slow responding continuity tester is a pig to use as it slows down the whole RE process as you have to wait after each probe move, rather than scan the probe along the component pins as you can with the SF10 and a Fluke 87 III multimeter.

As a hint, any continuity function that uses an old fashioned mechanical 'buzzer' as its sound generator is unlikely to be very good ! They are just too slow in responding.

Hope this helps a little.

Aurora
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Online tautech

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2015, 09:34:51 pm »
@tautech,
Hope this helps a little.

Aurora
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2015, 10:12:46 pm »
I have started a thread on the FLIR E2 that I will be repairing.

It can be found here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-thermal-camera-for-teardown-my-latest-patient-the-e2/msg669563/#msg669563

As it turns out I may not need to reverse engineer this cameras PCB's as the fault is due to fluid contamination and it will just need some TLC to sort it out. However, note the procedure that I followed before disassembly..... a methodical approach is needed, just like when reverse engineering, in order to collect as much useful data as possible before opening the case.

Aurora
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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2015, 04:09:21 am »
@Aurora

Thanks for the link and the really interesting read on your exploit on the FLIR E2 camera!  :-+

I have to confess that thermal imaging is something quite unfamiliar to me, though I have colleagues who do installation and maintenance work for one of the infrared temperature sensor product by another subsidiary of my company. I see them using a heat source to calibrate the camera every time they power up the unit to test or troubleshoot.

In terms of PCB repair, thermal imaging does come in handy sometime to help detect hot spots on faulty PCBs when they're powered up for a while, though the result may still be subjected to interpretation because some PCBs are hot due to the nature of design and operation, and unless there's a good PCB to reference, it can be quite ambiguous in some cases, at best.

Anyway, I am glad I learned quite a lot (and I mean a lot) from your sharing on this field of equipment repair. Enjoyed it thoroughly especially your interaction with other engineers who are knowledgeable on this subject as well. Keep it up!

Cheers!  :)

Singapura
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2015, 01:15:43 pm »
Hi Singapura,

Yes I had some fun playing with the FLIR E2 camera. I was pleased to get some life out of it on the first day  :). It is still unwell and in need of some TLC however. I expect to be reverse engineering the DC-DC converters in an effort to identify which serve what components and to find suitable test points for detecting excess noise on their outputs. Its minor reverse engineering really but with such high density PCB's and many potentially failing capacitors, its worth the effort. If the supply rails to the microbolometer and its associated ADC are OK, I will need to delve deeper into the design in order to spot where the noise issue starts in the signal path.

I have had to take a rest from the E2 for the moment as I have other duties taking priority. I am looking forward to diving back into it though  :) It is a pretty decent thermal camera in terms of its performance but as you will have read, its physical construction leaves much to be desired. I admire fine engineering and it makes me sad to see a good electronic design let down by poor implementation of the mechanical aspects, such as case ergonomics or PCB mounting etc.

That E2 thread went further than I had originally intended. It is risky to provide an insight into ones thinking processes, especially when suffering from the brain fogging CFS. I do not think I made too many mistakes this time though   ;D

On another topic.

I have VISIO 2010 on my desktop computer and I decided it would be good to have a version of VISIO for mobile use. I just purchased an original boxed copy of VISIO Standard 2003 complete with its serial number for £29. It arrived today so I will soon be able to work with VISIO whilst away from home  :-+

I did look at the later versions but they are still commanding quite high prices on Ebay. The 2003 version should be fine for my limited needs anyway.

I will post in this thread if I start reverse engineering the E2 PCBs or any other device that passes across my lab bench.

Aurora
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 01:18:09 pm by Aurora »
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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #59 on: May 16, 2015, 01:49:52 am »
@Aurora

Haha... I guess it's not uncommon for engineers like us to experience CFS on and off, especially when we get too focused with some on-hand technical issues that have us intrigued and challenged at the same time. I agree with you that many good electronic equipment designs are let down by their mechanical counterparts in the bid to cut cost by the manufacturers, which is why these days equipment don't last as well as they used to...

The standard version of VISIO is actually sufficient if like me, you prefer to create your own shapes and symbols instead of relying on the stencils that come with the software. Visio 2003 is a decent pick if you only use it for drawings and some simple shapesheet manipulation, but if you ever go deeper in the more advanced stuff like data connectivity (linking shapes to data, displaying data graphically, etc.), Visio 2007 or higher is better.

Like you said, the 2003 version should be fine for your current needs anyway. When you've played enough with Visio and decide to do move on to higher ground, you can always upgrade to a newer version.

Cheers!  :)

Singapura
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #60 on: May 16, 2015, 09:25:13 am »
Hi Singapura,

I do have VISIO 2010, but it is installed on my main desktop computer so not so useful when on the move  or wanting to work elsewhere in the house. I actually bought VISIO 2010 as part of Microsofts partner discount scheme with my employer. They charged me only £8  ;D

I will use the 2003 version for less demanding tasking  :-+

Best Wishes

Aurora
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Offline dds737

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2015, 05:47:45 pm »
Could be a possible to do cheap prototype of SF10 short finder  case which is made of ABS plastic, or does this prototyping  cost fortune?

thanks.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2015, 05:55:20 pm »
I thought about posting the reverse engineered schematic of the SF10 but in this scenario (intention to clone) that would in fact be IPA theft so I cannot do it. I have posted images of the PCB however. Tat is as far as my moral compass will let me go though.

The would not be expensive to copy but the production of the stainless steel brush might be challenging ? I have been thinking how I can replace such when it becomes to bent out of shape. No solution yet.

I believe FLUKE own the rights to the SF10. And yes I am scared of FLUKE's lawyers  ;)

I may be able to post some decent hints at the way the design works, and which chips do what, though   ;)  I'll take a look at my SF10.

Aurora
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 06:14:23 pm by Aurora »
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Offline helius

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2015, 05:58:56 pm »
Perhaps a conductive brush like these ones: http://www.kita-mfg.com/pro_nanotech_e.html
could be used?
 

Offline dds737

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2015, 08:46:05 pm »
I thought about posting the reverse engineered schematic of the SF10 but in this scenario (intention to clone) that would in fact be IPA theft so I cannot do it. I have posted images of the PCB however. Tat is as far as my moral compass will let me


I think  if you copy pcb layout it would be IP theft, but if you rearrange schematics, pcb layout , it will be okay. Maybe I'm 100  percent wrong, but just my thoughts..


Similar  discussion here:

http://meta.electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/3366/reverse-engineering-and-intellectual-property
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 08:50:07 pm by dds737 »
 

Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2015, 03:37:43 am »
@helius

The nanotech brush looks pretty cool but at slightly below $50 a piece it's quite expensive.
According to the brochure, it's completely made of stainless steel, from the shaft to the brush and its holder, much like the Wavetek Meterman SF10.

@dds737

Aurora has his point and concern when it comes to IPA. It's one thing to reverse engineer a piece of PCB for one's knowledge and enrichment, it's another thing altogether to put it on public domain and get yourself into possible legal trouble.

For a more in-depth understanding into this copyright issues, a good article can be found in the paper written by David C. Musker at http://www.jenkins.eu/articles-general/reverse-engineering.asp which he presented at "Protecting & Exploiting Intellectual Property in Electronics", IBC Conferences, on June 10, 1998.

If you're game enough, you might want to consider building one of those milliohm squawker short or continuity finder I mentioned in post #50. The link contains photos and schematic diagram - good for a prototyping weekend project.

@Aurora

Thanks for the thot. Would certainly love to see your work on the SF10 (private viewing maybe...).   :-+
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Offline kaveendra

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #66 on: May 26, 2015, 04:02:15 am »
Clear photocopies, Nice pencil, Quality eraser, Good set of eyes and perseverance together will be the best tools for the job! Sure its not easy, but it works almost all the time  ;)
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #67 on: May 26, 2015, 11:42:57 am »
Patience and perseverance combined with a decent methodical approach is the key to solving many 'puzzles. What I like about this book is that it explains these methodology well and, in my case, opened my eyes to a new way to document my RE work.

One of the major challenges that I meet these days are higher integration of IC's meaning less visibility of the 'circuit' FPGA's etc become 'black boxes' on my diagrams. As for BGA chips, I admit I do not desolder them and have to either 'best guess' the connectivity (if a datasheet is available) or treat them as black boxes as well. Sometimes my X-Ray machine can show the pcb tracks and where they terminate on the chip but the image can get very confusing on multi layer PCB's.

The Chinese like to erase the identity of key IC's in an effort to prevent IPA theft (there is a joke in there somewhere!) and that can make reverse engineering such PCB's a challenge. Much time is spent viewing data sheets, looking for possible identities using the pin-out and likely function as as an aid. Lots of patience needed.  :) 

I have always used the photocopy/scanner method to capture and enlarge images of PCB's so that I can annotate them. Thanks to this book I have now decided to learn VISIO and document my work using that tool. I am still on paper and pencil at the moment though  ;D

Aurora



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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2015, 05:01:27 am »
I was quite hearten to find a positive review from another reader who purchased my book on the Amazon store website. Given that I'm a first time author, to receive such compliments from two self-taught experienced engineers in this field is certainly a great encouragement to me, and once again affirmed that the efforts spent in writing the book has not been in vain.

http://www.amazon.com/review/R1ZW81ZU1X3OKZ/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=1499323441&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=283155&store=books
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2015, 06:54:34 pm »
@Singapura,

I am pleased to read that someone else appreciates your efforts  :-+

I am presently bobbing about on the North Sea somewhere between the UK and Oslo but thanks to the marvel of modern technology I can still keep in touch with the EEVBlog..... Sat in the glorious sun on the rear of a cruise ship reading the EEVBlog on my netbook.....life is good  ;D

BUT, no electronics to play with  :(   I feel sure that I am getting withdrawal symptoms !

I am currently reading up on how to use SketchUp so that I can design some parts for my recently acquired UP! Mini 3D printer, then there is more reading on programming in 'C' for PIC micro-controllers... that should keep me sane  ;D  I should have brought that FLIR E2 and some basic reverse engineering tools.... mind you that might have scared other passengers into thinking I was up to no good  ;D

Best Wishes from the North Sea

Fraser
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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2015, 02:55:23 am »
Hi Fraser

Enjoying your cruise and relaxing under the warm sun while catching up on some technical reading... that sounds pretty cool to me.

Yeah, the positive review couldn't have come at a better time too, considering the sale of the book has not been good lately, to the point I was wondering if this topic of RE is too niche to find enough readership in the electronic engineering market. I was even considering to remove my book off the shelf and move on to something more worthwhile. After all, I've fulfilled my dream of being an author so there is no regrets.

On hand I have created a few more stencils and I'll probably put it up on my blog for free download to my readers, once I find the time to clean and organize them.

Hope you'll pick up useful skills (SketchUp, 3D Printing, C for embedded programming, etc) that will spice up your engineering life and passion.

Cheers!  :)
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2015, 02:30:06 pm »
@Singapura,

Sorry to hear that sales have not been as high as your efforts deserve. Sadly you may be correct in saying that RE is a niche activity. I have met many fellow techs who do not practice it as it takes too long and if they cannot find a schematics they declare equipment BER. Very sad state of affairs really as I was taught to repair, not to give up at the first hurdle  ;D

Have you advertised your book on other forums ? It is worthy of greater circulation and it may just need some time for its existence to be recognised. I wonder what an advert on Dave's EEVBlog home web page costs ?

A mention on web sites dedicated to hacking would do no harm either as hackers work on both software and hardware reverse engineering. Hack-a-day ?

Worst case scenario would be the release as an ebook as already discussed. The lower cost (?) may encourage more sales but with the risk of piracy. Its a difficult call to make, and so may be worth keeping the paper format for a while longer.

I hope for greater sales in the coming months. I am happy to support your book in any way that I can.

All the Best

Fraser
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2015, 02:43:22 pm »
Is there still no program for reverse engineering a PCB?
Take 2 pictures of the pcb, and the program generates the schematic.

For 4+ layers, the program tells you step by step where to measure continuity.

...?
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Offline Fraser

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2015, 03:13:07 pm »
Not that I am aware of. Automated RE normally consists of many continuity checks using a multi probe head and X-Y bed, all driven by an automated test routine. Very expensive equipment. Sadly a visual image cannot predict the path of PCB tracks on higher density PCB's where they pass under other components such as chips etc.

The human brain is a good puzzle solver and you would really need some AI to replicate the brains analytical capabilities. Muti layer PCB's are hard for a human brain to analyse without a great deal of reference to device data sheets, X-Ray images of the PCB, many continuity tests and, in some cases, destruction of the PCB, layer by layer to reveal the pattern for imaging. I am not sure how a computerised solution using just images could solve such a puzzle. 

Sadly, much RE work is often done to steal design ideas  or to make clones. In such cases expensive automated machinery, or large RE teams, are justified. The DIY RE market for hobbyists is very small in comparison.

Aurora
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Offline SingapuraTopic starter

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Re: PCB Reverse-Engineering
« Reply #74 on: June 12, 2015, 01:49:06 am »
@Galenbo

Aurora was right on the mark!

The fastest way to reverse engineer a multi-layer PCB is using the flying probe (FP); but you'll need to first digitize the board to get the X-Y coordinates of all the solder pads to facilitate auto-probing and learning, then use the netlist generation software of the RE option that comes with the FP machine to re-create the connectivity and translate the results to schematics. The FP machine alone is costly (>$100K) and one that can do probing on both sides will be even costlier; the RE software is usually opitional and not included with the basic package.

I've visited a company that sells very high resolution flatbed scanner for RE purposes. Their approach is to sacrifice a PCB using a meticulous process, peeling off layer by layer and scanning each layer, then superimpose the scan images and feed to their software to re-construct the board's gerber data.

Both of these methods are mentioned as alternative approaches to the manual approach which I advocated in my book. After all, if your intention is to do a partial or quick RE on an ad hoc basis for troubleshooting purposes, then it makes no sense to invest in an expensive equipment or to sacrifice your customer's PCB. And as Aurora mentioned, the human brain is a good puzzle solver. If I may add on to his statement - the best equipment is only as good as the engineer that uses it.

Doing RE may not be easy, in fact it is hard work. But the rewards are great and the skills and knowledge that one gleans from this discipline stays with him or her for life. Once you go through that baptism of fire, you'd think that there's nothing you can't possibly do or too intimidating for you to take on, as far as electronics is concerned.

Have a go and give it your best shot! (Warning: you might just fall in love with it!)  ;)

Cheers!
Singapura
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 02:08:49 am by Singapura »
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