eevBLAB #63: How Affordable Are Electric Cars?

[james_s]

I'm outside the US, and the Ford F150 is the most popular (sold) vehicle in the country.  But yes, people are stupid for the most part, overbuying what they need in the delusion that it's worthwhile for "when they need it".  Weirdly even small pickup trucks have gone by the wayside (although I believe Ford are bringing back the Ranger), but no longer can you buy a small 4cyl pickup from any of the Japanese manufacturers.

He probably should have said "outside North America". I have not seen much difference between the vehicles on the road in Canada vs the USA, however I visited England several years ago and I noticed cars on average were much smaller there, I don't recall seeing any pickup trucks at all. Here in the USA on the other hand loads of people buy a gigantic truck because they "need" to tow a trailer once or twice a year and that's pretty silly IMO. I have a station wagon that meets 95% of my cargo hauling needs while being as economical and drivable as an ordinary car because it essentially is an ordinary car. On those occasions when it is not sufficient I borrow a truck.

[thm_w]

It is not just a price of battery even motors are astonishingly expensive
For example I want to convert one motorcycle to EV, but but electric motor with permanent magnets cost similar cost as motorcycle ICE
I wonder if prices of motors are just today high margin or is it real material cost
As today lithium battery prices goes very close to material prices

I would like to have electric car for commuting, but today it still have no sense, physics and market cannot be fooled, when is something more expensive, then it have more energy input and it is less environmental friendly

Retrofitting a car or motorbike with new electric parts hasn't made sense for many years now. The cost of new parts is just too high, especially in single quantity. You either need to be buying salvage or used parts (see rich rebuilds youtube channel, he bought a crashed electric motorcycle, but battery/motor/controller were working).

It still makes sense for electric bicycles though, a retrofit kit is not expensive compared to a new bike.

Correct. Often people buy cars for 1% of the use case. Think about towing a caravan or bringing lots of stuff. After owning a sedan I ran back to a station wagon because the sedan didn't have any space at all. But it is not like I drive around with the back of the station car filled to the brim. When it comes to a car you have to buy something which matches 99.9% of your use cases because buying a second or third one is just too expensive. That is why hybrids make so much sense; they keep fuel consumption low so their CO2 emissions are on par with CO2 output of an EV (from the average electricity mix you find in most parts of the world) but have none of the hassles of EVs when you want to make a long trip.

Yes I mentioned this. One reason why car shares should be encouraged in all large cities. If you need a pickup/van/etc then you rent it for a few hours, otherwise drive your (preferably small) electric car.

[nctnico]

That won't work. One of the use cases where you need space is going on a holiday. And guess what: most people do that at the same moment. You'll need a massive amount of extra cars for that at the same time which otherwise sit idle for the rest of the year. Needless to say this will be too expensive. Spending the extra money to support the 1% use case is usually worth it because the alternative (renting a car) is more expensive.

[EEVblog]

Hey EEVBLOGgers, I think we need to get Dave into a Nissan Leaf (or equiv) for at least a longish term testdrive.  Would make some great videos.
All we really need to do is tweet/instagram/facebook nudge Nissan Australia into the right direction
https://www.facebook.com/nissanaustralia
https://twitter.com/Nissan_Aus
https://www.instagram.com/nissanaustralia

If I could get one I'll drive it to the Electronx show in Melbourne

[EEVblog]

free charging at work can be a deal-maker.  in the bay area, its a current trend to install fast chargers at workplaces.

What happens when even 10% of the work force wants to charge every day?

[EEVblog]

Looks like there are 2nd hand LEAF's in Australia for under $20k
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/wetherill-park/cars-vans-utes/my-2014-nissan-leaf-only-19364km-english-gps-12-bars-battery-capacity/1221722933
Still 5 years old though.
It's not out the question that I could trade my Corolla for one of those, it's currently worth about $12k on the private market (if I could find a buyer)
The LEAF is about the only choice in Oz BTW for an affordable EV.

BTW, it's looking like a battery storage solution at home might be happening, so an EV starts to make sense to utilise that.

[f4eru]

Then you install solar on the roof, and one standard 10A outlet per parking space. Cheap and good enough.
 No need to get fancier than that, due to power sharing, charging will be slow anyway.
Charging at work makes much sense, esp. in AUS with a lot of sun

[coppice]

free charging at work can be a deal-maker.  in the bay area, its a current trend to install fast chargers at workplaces.

What happens when even 10% of the work force wants to charge every day?

Right now there is a sprinkling of low power (up to 7kW) chargers in all sorts of places - company car parks, supermarkets, retail parks, hotels, restaurants, etc . I assume that as electric cars become more common, the range of cars will increase, and most of these chargers will become less relevant. I certainly can't imagine a time when a high percentage of the spaces in car parks have a charging point. Hotels are probably an exception. People travelling around the country would benefit greatly from, and be prepared to pay for, charging as they sleep each night.

[sokoloff]

Looks like there are 2nd hand LEAF's in Australia for under $20k
https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/wetherill-park/cars-vans-utes/my-2014-nissan-leaf-only-19364km-english-gps-12-bars-battery-capacity/1221722933
Still 5 years old though.
It's not out the question that I could trade my Corolla for one of those, it's currently worth about $12k on the private market (if I could find a buyer)
The LEAF is about the only choice in Oz BTW for an affordable EV.

I drive a LEAF and am generally happy with it, but my range has decreased about 35% from new in ~4.5 years. Contrast this with the liquid cooled batteries in the Smart electrics (not a directly comparable car, of course) which have degraded less than 4% for my parents, who live in a hotter climate and have driven more miles in a comparable time period. My LEAF has one slightly faulty module which isn't faulty enough for Nissan to warranty replace it, so I'm in a middle ground of hoping it gets a fair bit worse soon so they can replace it, or I may have to tackle the replacement myself with a used Ebay part (at which point I'll quite reasonably be tossing out any hope of a factory warranty on the pack). That one faulted cell is what is killing my range so badly. (There's an Android app called "Leaf Spy [Pro]" that can be used to investigate some of the internals of the LEAF battery; I'd recommend buying it and the BT ODB2 dongle and using it on a LEAF you're contemplating buying secondhand.)

Even with the issue, I'm a 7 or 8 out of 10 supporter of the LEAF; it really is a practical, fairly normal "just a car" and the maintenance expenses [aside from the yet unresolved battery issue above on which I've spent $0 so far] have been limited to a set of wiper blades, a tire plug, and a few fills of the washer reservoir in 4.5 years and ~18K miles. If the battery were routine wear (as others on the forums report maybe 2-3% per year decline), I'd be a 10 out of 10 on the car for sure!

[james_s]

That won't work. One of the use cases where you need space is going on a holiday. And guess what: most people do that at the same moment. You'll need a massive amount of extra cars for that at the same time which otherwise sit idle for the rest of the year. Needless to say this will be too expensive. Spending the extra money to support the 1% use case is usually worth it because the alternative (renting a car) is more expensive.

Maybe you should inform all the people out there who do manage to make this work that it in fact does not work?

[linux-works]

free charging at work can be a deal-maker.  in the bay area, its a current trend to install fast chargers at workplaces.

What happens when even 10% of the work force wants to charge every day?

I see all our chargers being in use, the full business day.  you queue up, the phone app (I guess you have to install something) tells you when you need to 'run out of your meeting' (lol) to move your car to the charger slot.  then, when your time is over (2 hours for tesla, I think; diff timings for other cars) you have to run out yet again and move your car back.  seems like a hassle but if it saves me waiting for the gas station and saves me money, I'm willing to try it.  the weather is usually good here, no snow and only rain in the winter, so running out to move your car twice a day isn't the wost I can imagine.

not every company has free charging at work, but more and more do and its being seen as a perk, now.

the electric grid isn't the problem right now; its installed charging stations; and we just ripped up the driveway and installed a few more, just a few weeks ago.  I would bet we'll continue to install more, as our employees convert over to electric more and more.

[tom66]

That won't work. One of the use cases where you need space is going on a holiday. And guess what: most people do that at the same moment. You'll need a massive amount of extra cars for that at the same time which otherwise sit idle for the rest of the year. Needless to say this will be too expensive. Spending the extra money to support the 1% use case is usually worth it because the alternative (renting a car) is more expensive.

The car rental agencies don't seem to have trouble keeping up with people that don't own cars, and just rent them when they need.
There are already car clubs in cities like London that enable that - in a well connected city like London the need for a car is infrequent so paying to have one rust outside is awfully expensive.

[EEVblog]

Seem that there are heaps of imported LEAF's, just this one dealer has dozens:
http://www.sydneycitytraders.com.au/vehicles/nissan-leaf-------

[tszaboo]

free charging at work can be a deal-maker.  in the bay area, its a current trend to install fast chargers at workplaces.

What happens when even 10% of the work force wants to charge every day?

They will make a deal with you. Right now they have to pay 0.19EUR/KM anyway for the commute, at least here. And pay taxes on top of that. If you charge your car at work, you can charge a little bit extra (daily "any other business") and charging would cost them less. Electricity is cheaper for companies than individuals. Governments reach their climate goals. It is a win-win-win scenario.
It will be just part of the employee benefits package.

[tom66]

free charging at work can be a deal-maker.  in the bay area, its a current trend to install fast chargers at workplaces.

What happens when even 10% of the work force wants to charge every day?

I see all our chargers being in use, the full business day.  you queue up, the phone app (I guess you have to install something) tells you when you need to 'run out of your meeting' (lol) to move your car to the charger slot.  then, when your time is over (2 hours for tesla, I think; diff timings for other cars) you have to run out yet again and move your car back.  seems like a hassle but if it saves me waiting for the gas station and saves me money, I'm willing to try it.  the weather is usually good here, no snow and only rain in the winter, so running out to move your car twice a day isn't the wost I can imagine.

not every company has free charging at work, but more and more do and its being seen as a perk, now.

the electric grid isn't the problem right now; its installed charging stations; and we just ripped up the driveway and installed a few more, just a few weeks ago.  I would bet we'll continue to install more, as our employees convert over to electric more and more.

In multi-storey garages in Norway for instance, it is very common for every parking space on several floors, or even all floors, to be fitted with 7kW AC charging. 
Thinking about the grid connection for a full garage is interesting - 1500 cars * 7kW = 10.5MW.  230V, ~16,000A per phase. (I guess at this point you would have 11kV direct to the car park and an on-site transformer.)

At work we have 4 charging spaces and only two users so my car occupies the space all day. But more employees are interested in EVs so this might change.  I get charged 18p/kWh so I don't fully charge my car here, as it's more expensive than home electricity.

Still, my commute works out around 4p/mile right now, about 1/4 of that of my petrol car before.

[mikeselectricstuff]

 Any large scale setup of AC chargers will.have load-sharing, and will be able to limit current at each charger dynamically as load changes, both.due to cars plugging in and out, and reaching end of charge. The charging protiocol makes this simple to implement-it can tell each car how much it can draw , I think the spec says the car must respond within 5 seconds.

[JPortici]

you have to lease the battery, with a monthly charge

and you also have a limit on how many km you can drive, per month or per year.

[SilverSolder]

How the hell do you spend 1500/year on a car to have it serviced?

Just let the car get old enough...   a set of brakes all round can easily cost $1500 to get done on their own, especially if you need calipers as well...   Tires...   Exhaust systems...   Odds and sods...

So budgeting $1000 per year (give or take) to keep an old vehicle that is driven daily in tip top shape is not completely crazy at all.

[coppice]

Any large scale setup of AC chargers will.have load-sharing, and will be able to limit current at each charger dynamically as load changes, both.due to cars plugging in and out, and reaching end of charge. The charging protiocol makes this simple to implement-it can tell each car how much it can draw , I think the spec says the car must respond within 5 seconds.

They might as well save money, have less charging points, and get a higher throughput from each one. Once you are limited by the incoming power capacity all you are doing is sharing out the misery of waiting is slightly different ways.

[nctnico]

How the hell do you spend 1500/year on a car to have it serviced?

Just let the car get old enough...   a set of brakes all round can easily cost $1500 to get done on their own, especially if you need calipers as well...   Tires...   Exhaust systems...   Odds and sods...

So budgeting $1000 per year (give or take) to keep an old vehicle that is driven daily in tip top shape is not completely crazy at all.

Maybe on a high performance or classic car but not on a bog standard car of which millions have been sold and parts are dirt cheap. With my Mazda I noticed parts where getting actually cheaper with increasing age. Probably because some companies where trying to get rid of their stock. But sure at some point a car is worn and no longer worth the cost from a financial point of view. But then you are talking about an age of >20 years. I get rid of a car long before it starts costing serious money to maintain.

[sokoloff]

Any large scale setup of AC chargers will.have load-sharing, and will be able to limit current at each charger dynamically as load changes, both.due to cars plugging in and out, and reaching end of charge. The charging protiocol makes this simple to implement-it can tell each car how much it can draw , I think the spec says the car must respond within 5 seconds.

They might as well save money, have less charging points, and get a higher throughput from each one. Once you are limited by the incoming power capacity all you are doing is sharing out the misery of waiting is slightly different ways.

For an office park situation, I disagree. I want to park my car in the morning and drive away in the evening charged. I don't want to go down and move it middle of the day (possibly twice) just so that the actual charging can be faster.

[sokoloff]

How the hell do you spend 1500/year on a car to have it serviced?

Just let the car get old enough...   a set of brakes all round can easily cost $1500 to get done on their own, especially if you need calipers as well...   Tires...   Exhaust systems...   Odds and sods...

So budgeting $1000 per year (give or take) to keep an old vehicle that is driven daily in tip top shape is not completely crazy at all.

Maybe on a high performance or classic car but not on a bog standard car of which millions have been sold and parts are dirt cheap. With my Mazda I noticed parts where getting actually cheaper with increasing age. Probably because some companies where trying to get rid of their stock. But sure at some point a car is worn and no longer worth the cost from a financial point of view. But then you are talking about an age of >20 years. I get rid of a car long before it starts costing serious money to maintain.

If you take a 10 year old car to a dealership and ask for brakes all around, you're likely going to be into the better part of $1500 in an expensive labor part of the country. Now, whether that's sensible or not is perhaps another question. The parts are likely closer to $300 in the aftermarket and three hours of relatively easy and very straightforward labor in the driveway...

People who only consider one of the two extremes (dealership or DIY) can't comprehend the costs that the "other" side pays.

[james_s]

My partner's 2002 Prius needed a wheel bearing, dealer quoted her $750 and said they might discover the other side was also noisy after replacing the obviously bad one. The pathetic Haynes manual said the job requires special tools and is too difficult to DIY. I decided to try anyway and it was a piece of cake, needed a press but the whole job took less than 2 hours. Turned out it did need the other side so that time around took just over an hour. Paying the dealer would have been $1500 right there vs $250 and 3 hours of my time. Dunno what an indie shop would charge but those aren't cheap around here either.

[Fungus]

The problem is not cars getting on fire in general but EVs with burning batteries are a magnitude squared harder to extuingish.

The gasoline cars I've seen burning at the side of the road didn't look like anything I'd be able to extinguish with a typical car fire extinguisher and seemed like the car would be completely burned up long before the fire brigade could arrive, so... 

(I've seen three or four)

[nctnico]

How the hell do you spend 1500/year on a car to have it serviced?

Just let the car get old enough...   a set of brakes all round can easily cost $1500 to get done on their own, especially if you need calipers as well...   Tires...   Exhaust systems...   Odds and sods...

So budgeting $1000 per year (give or take) to keep an old vehicle that is driven daily in tip top shape is not completely crazy at all.

Maybe on a high performance or classic car but not on a bog standard car of which millions have been sold and parts are dirt cheap. With my Mazda I noticed parts where getting actually cheaper with increasing age. Probably because some companies where trying to get rid of their stock. But sure at some point a car is worn and no longer worth the cost from a financial point of view. But then you are talking about an age of >20 years. I get rid of a car long before it starts costing serious money to maintain.

If you take a 10 year old car to a dealership and ask for brakes all around, you're likely going to be into the better part of $1500 in an expensive labor part of the country. Now, whether that's sensible or not is perhaps another question. The parts are likely closer to $300 in the aftermarket and three hours of relatively easy and very

People who only consider one of the two extremes (dealership or DIY) can't comprehend the costs that the "other" side pays.

Who said anything about considering one of the extremes? I just take my car to a universal garage. But ofcourse I already did the research before buying and bought a car on which the brakes just don't go bad.