eevBLAB #82 - Kickstarter Over-unity Gravitational Power Generator!

[EEVblog]

Two Japanese guys have been working for 30 years on a "Gavitational Power Generator" over-unity machine that produces 30-100 times the input energy.
The Japanese Patent office disagrees in an hilarious Kickstarter own-goal!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sunteljp/the-gravitational-power-generator-eco-turbine/description

[FrankBuss]

Why did he built it so big that it costs lots of money to attach a generator? Maybe the sad truth is that he started small and it didn't work, and somehow he thinks it will work when bigger. But the English information about it doesn't mention any upper or lower limits for the construction size.

[Domagoj T]

Like you said it in the video, that's just sad. Those guys had an idea, failed to realize it's impossible and got tangled up in the convoluted mechanism that obstructed their view of the basic fact that pumping water up the hill requires more energy than you can extract by bringing it back down.
The kickstarter goal of just $1000 tells me they're not trying to deceive people, just that they are completely naive, not only in technical aspect regarding conservation of energy, but in regards to economy and finances as well. $1000 for a mechanical project of that size is just ridiculous. If they think that $1000 is going to make a difference, they are in a very deep delusion. Shame, they seem like nice guys, and I really feel sorry for them.

[Circlotron]

At least they've probably had heaps of fun and excitement with it over the years. From that point of view I'd say it was worth it. Many people live lonely, unhappy and unfulfilling lives. They had a goal, even if it did eventually come to nothing.

[VK3DRB]

This is a sort of Japanese version of an dodgy Australian company called Split Cycle Technology. The dodgy CEO was roofing tiler who became very wealthy out of stock in Split Cycle Technology. They issued reports to shareholders that the motor was tested by NASA , which was misleading. The split cycle motor went nowhere, so Split Cycle Technology then came up with a hare-brained idea of air pressure powered bicycles to solve the world's energy problems, calling for further investment $$$. Split Cycle was a Queensland based company. Queensland is Australia's the home of get-rich-quick schemes and scammers.

I reckon for every 500 hare-brained ideas out there, one might have some substance; and that is being optimistic.

[Lord of nothing]

Does such "Machines" not "just" use the Gravity?
I saw many of such Perpeto Mobile who are use the Gravity by shifting a weight.
Well there are many Energy Producing ways who use Gravity like a Hydro Generator who just use a River to give them the Energy.
A real Perpeto Mobile would even work in Space...

[FrankBuss]

Right, hydro generators with rivers work, because they convert some of the potential energy of the water into electric energy. The difference compared to a perpetuum mobile is that it is not a closed system, and initially the sun created this potential energy of the water by evaporating the water.

But another idea: would it be possible to convert the orbital energy of the Earth to electrical energy? Spacecrafts use already this energy for fly-by maneuvers. But is it possible with a small machine on Earth? I guess someone already thought about it and explained why it is not possible, but can't find anything.

[Lord of nothing]

  Theoretically yes when you count the Moon and the Sea who rise and fall do to the Moon Gravity.
Maybe: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gezeitenkraftwerk

[Circlotron]

 If you had a gyroscope fixed to the ground with its shaft horizontal and pointing east west, spin it up and as the earth rotated it would impart additional rotation to the gyroscope and you  could tap off a bit of energy if it had low enough friction bearings.

[james_s]

Like you said it in the video, that's just sad. Those guys had an idea, failed to realize it's impossible and got tangled up in the convoluted mechanism that obstructed their view of the basic fact that pumping water up the hill requires more energy than you can extract by bringing it back down.
The kickstarter goal of just $1000 tells me they're not trying to deceive people, just that they are completely naive, not only in technical aspect regarding conservation of energy, but in regards to economy and finances as well. $1000 for a mechanical project of that size is just ridiculous. If they think that $1000 is going to make a difference, they are in a very deep delusion. Shame, they seem like nice guys, and I really feel sorry for them.

This sort of thing happens all the time, it's one of the classic follies of people trying to build any type of over-unity machine. They keep adding complexity until it is complicated enough that they obfuscate the reasons it cannot work from themselves. Another classic mistake is thinking that it just needs to be scaled up in order for it to work. It can be mathematically proven that no such device can ever work so it's a waste of time to even try.

[FrankBuss]

If you had a gyroscope fixed to the ground with its shaft horizontal and pointing east west, spin it up and as the earth rotated it would impart additional rotation to the gyroscope and you  could tap off a bit of energy if it had low enough friction bearings.

This sounds like a cool idea. I did a quick sketch with Blender:



The black base is mounted to the north pole and the blue cylinder can rotate around the black axis. So when the green cylinder rotates, the whole blue construction would rotate 360° once a day, right? I think with some gears this could drive a generator. If mounted at an angle, it should work for other positions on the earth as well. Might be a good idea to try it with a smaller version first.

[Circlotron]

^^ That would work, but only very slowly of course. My version has the blue base connected firmly to the ground so it cannot rotate. As the earth rotates it imparts addition speed to the green flywheel that is already spinning at a useful rpm.  There is an exercise toy available that uses this exact principle, so it definitely works. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool

The overall effect, besides slowing the earth’s rotation, would be to eventually tilt the whole earth somewhat, so it would be good practice to have another gyro at the South Pole oriented and spinning appropriately to counteract this tendency!

[Bud]

Like you said it in the video, that's just sad. Those guys had an idea, failed to realize it's impossible and got tangled up in the convoluted mechanism that obstructed their view of the basic fact that pumping water up the hill requires more energy than you can extract by bringing it back down.
The kickstarter goal of just $1000 tells me they're not trying to deceive people, just that they are completely naive, not only in technical aspect regarding conservation of energy, but in regards to economy and finances as well. $1000 for a mechanical project of that size is just ridiculous. If they think that $1000 is going to make a difference, they are in a very deep delusion. Shame, they seem like nice guys, and I really feel sorry for them.

They spent all of their retirement money and were short of just a $1000 ? 

[joeqsmith]

This is a sort of Japanese version of an dodgy Australian company called Split Cycle Technology. The dodgy CEO was roofing tiler who became very wealthy out of stock in Split Cycle Technology. They issued reports to shareholders that the motor was tested by NASA , which was misleading. The split cycle motor went nowhere, so Split Cycle Technology then came up with a hare-brained idea of air pressure powered bicycles to solve the world's energy problems, calling for further investment $$$. Split Cycle was a Queensland based company. Queensland is Australia's the home of get-rich-quick schemes and scammers.

I reckon for every 500 hare-brained ideas out there, one might have some substance; and that is being optimistic.

One Small Engine for Man
One Giant Engine for Mankind

Pictures from my copy of their VHS tape. 

[IanB]

But another idea: would it be possible to convert the orbital energy of the Earth to electrical energy?

Of course. It is called tidal power. Not only is it possible, it has been the subject of serious investigation with various schemes proposed to implement it.

[Labrat101]

Just love the Idea .
Found an alternative power source .
Runs off the grid   and uses peanuts to work .
Multi uses as well as per photo.

[schmitt trigger]

Does the hamster run the hard drive?

[ejeffrey]

But another idea: would it be possible to convert the orbital energy of the Earth to electrical energy?

Of course. It is called tidal power. Not only is it possible, it has been the subject of serious investigation with various schemes proposed to implement it.

Tidal power mostly takes energy out of earth's rotational kinetic energy, not orbital.  i.e., it makes days longer not years.  But to answer the question as to why it is hard: you have to conserve not just total energy but also angular momentum.  The spinning earth can't just start spinning slower on its own, it needs to transfer that angular momentum somewhere and that somewhere is the moon.  In fact, some of the energy made available by slowing down the earth's rotation has to go to the Moon which is moved to a higher orbit by the effect, increasing its potential energy.  In any case, we really don't have any control over the process and we can't just extract an arbitrary amount of rotational energy from the earth.  Mostly the tides do what they are going to do, and we can either extract a small fraction of the energy or not.

[Labrat101]

Does the hamster run the hard drive?

   Of Course it does Direct drive . & There is a gyroscope in a vacuum bell with a horizontal mount pendulum  that rotates in sinc with the planet .
 ( like water always goes anti clock down a drain ) Northern hemisphere .
 The Vacuum bell not shown as its a patented secret 
 

[CoteRotie]

Yeah, this is nothing but sad, poor guys.

Years ago I worked in a little industrial park- There was a real estate office a few doors down.  When the head of the real estate office found out we were engineers he asked us over to show us his "invention".

He led us into the back room where he had built a motor-generator set he'd worked on for five years with a switch so that once the motor spun up he could power it from the output of the generator, and tap off that for the "free energy". 

Of course it didn't work YET, but he was close to making it work (any day now).

No matter how much we tried to tell him about efficiency, the second law, entropy, etc. he never gave up.  He might still be at if for all I know.

At least in his case it was a hobby and he didn't spend his life savings on it.

[Bud]

But another idea: would it be possible to convert the orbital energy of the Earth to electrical energy?

Of course. It is called tidal power. Not only is it possible, it has been the subject of serious investigation with various schemes proposed to implement it.

A device working on this principle will still not be an overunity power generator, as there will be external power applied to it.

[Pulsepowerguy]

^^ That would work, but only very slowly of course. My version has the blue base connected firmly to the ground so it cannot rotate. As the earth rotates it imparts addition speed to the green flywheel that is already spinning at a useful rpm.  There is an exercise toy available that uses this exact principle, so it definitely works. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool

The overall effect, besides slowing the earth’s rotation, would be to eventually tilt the whole earth somewhat, so it would be good practice to have another gyro at the South Pole oriented and spinning appropriately to counteract this tendency!

This idea was described to me by a rather eccentric inventor in 1979. He had calculated the minimum necessary diameter of a hollow steel sphere as well as the angle needed to draw energy. He tried to get a patent on the idea, but the USPTO examiner rejected it as impossible. I think it is workable, and yes, it will draw energy form the earth's rotation, thus slowing it down.

[FrankBuss]

^^ That would work, but only very slowly of course. My version has the blue base connected firmly to the ground so it cannot rotate. As the earth rotates it imparts addition speed to the green flywheel that is already spinning at a useful rpm.  There is an exercise toy available that uses this exact principle, so it definitely works. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool

The overall effect, besides slowing the earth’s rotation, would be to eventually tilt the whole earth somewhat, so it would be good practice to have another gyro at the South Pole oriented and spinning appropriately to counteract this tendency!

This idea was described to me by a rather eccentric inventor in 1979. He had calculated the minimum necessary diameter of a hollow steel sphere as well as the angle needed to draw energy. He tried to get a patent on the idea, but the USPTO examiner rejected it as impossible. I think it is workable, and yes, it will draw energy form the earth's rotation, thus slowing it down.

Cool, do you have details? How fast does it need to rotate? How much energy does it generate for a given size? Did the calculation consider friction etc.? Maybe if the inventor would build a prototype, the patent office would accept it.

[Labrat101]

^^ That would work, but only very slowly of course. My version has the blue base connected firmly to the ground so it cannot rotate. As the earth rotates it imparts addition speed to the green flywheel that is already spinning at a useful rpm.  There is an exercise toy available that uses this exact principle, so it definitely works. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool

The overall effect, besides slowing the earth’s rotation, would be to eventually tilt the whole earth somewhat, so it would be good practice to have another gyro at the South Pole oriented and spinning appropriately to counteract this tendency!

This idea was described to me by a rather eccentric inventor in 1979. He had calculated the minimum necessary diameter of a hollow steel sphere as well as the angle needed to draw energy. He tried to get a patent on the idea, but the USPTO examiner rejected it as impossible. I think it is workable, and yes, it will draw energy form the earth's rotation, thus slowing it down.

Cool, do you have details? How fast does it need to rotate? How much energy does it generate for a given size? Did the calculation consider friction etc.? Maybe if the inventor would build a prototype, the patent office would accept it.

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .
 Plan 'B' back up Planet is only 100 light years away . 
 There Is No Free Energy. it always come at a dangerous Price.
 I would work on making a Rocket that can travel 10 time the speed of light first .
 So at-least you will survive the boring journey & a packed Lunch 
 & lot of big books to read.

 Or Just Make a vaccine for the Real Problem   ..

[FrankBuss]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

[Labrat101]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

OMG
First you can just pull fictitious Numbers out of a Hat.
 Just slowing the Planet by a second . would cause an orbit change . If your not aware the polar
ice is melting this due to an imbalance of the planet. Water is heaver than ice .
 Rising the oceans helps natural forces to stabilise rotation.
If the Planet slows by just a few seconds ''as you say it."
 Orbit change & reversal of poles. would happen .
 If the Poles reverse it would not be .. As you said 350 million years .
 More Like 350 days .
 There is also an old saying.  IF it ain't broke, don't fix it ..

I suggest to stick to the simple things . LEGO would be fairly safe for you ..

[Circlotron]

^^ According to Encyclopedia Britannica tidal power is 3000 GW so that's 9.4608×10¹⁹ Joules per year slowing the earth down whether you like it or not.

And the same source quotes *electrical* energy consumption in 2016 as 21,000 terawatt-hours, so that's 5.83×10¹⁵ Joules.

If the rotating earth has 2x10^29 Joules that's enough for 34,285,700,000,000 years.

[nctnico]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

OMG
First you can just pull fictitious Numbers out of a Hat.
 Just slowing the Planet by a second . would cause an orbit change .

That is overly dramatic. Look into leap seconds and why we need them. The earth's rotational speed isn't constant at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94T_(timekeeping)

[Labrat101]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

OMG
First you can just pull fictitious Numbers out of a Hat.
 Just slowing the Planet by a second . would cause an orbit change .

That is overly dramatic. Look into leap seconds and why we need them. The earth's rotational speed isn't constant at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94T_(timekeeping)

That is for our time keeping . (true)
 Not for the universal laws that govern the physical placement of the log spiral & helical plains that
 keeps our planet in about the correct orbit . Which Albert Einstein tried hard to get scientist to
Understand .. and still don't Get it . because one needs to know and understand 7D mathematics.
 Simple Example if you move 1 planet 1 degree all the others will follow at a log degree displacement .
 i.e. we would move closer to the sun .. That in turn would raise the temperature of our climate by the same ratio to the Log scale so 1 degree change could be about 10c and so on .
 Causing a chain reaction of equal and opposite damage .
 No I am not going to explain these physics & how they works .
 One reason why the world governments Don't tell people the WHOLE story .
 That includes NASA .  Too Much info is dangerous . 
 So diversionary theory's are created to distract G.P.

[Circlotron]

No I am not going to explain these physics & how they works .
 One reason why the world governments Don't tell people the WHOLE story .

For the world's governments to collude to hide something they would have to be united.
Over-unity is more likely than that.

[nctnico]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

OMG
First you can just pull fictitious Numbers out of a Hat.
 Just slowing the Planet by a second . would cause an orbit change .

That is overly dramatic. Look into leap seconds and why we need them. The earth's rotational speed isn't constant at all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%94T_(timekeeping)

That is for our time keeping . (true)
 Not for the universal laws that govern the physical placement of the log spiral & helical plains that
 keeps our planet in about the correct orbit . Which Albert Einstein tried hard to get scientist to
Understand .. and still don't Get it . because one needs to know and understand 7D mathematics.
 Simple Example if you move 1 planet 1 degree all the others will follow at a log degree displacement .
 i.e. we would move closer to the sun .. That in turn would raise the temperature of our climate by the same ratio to the Log scale so 1 degree change could be about 10c and so on .

That starts to sound interesting but somehow I don't think the effect is that dramatic (at least on a timescale less than a million years); there is so much happening in 'our' solar system that an equilibrium which is extremely sensitive would have failed a long time ago. For example: our own moon has shifted it's orbit a lot over time and nothing bad has happened. A link would be nice.

That includes NASA .  Too Much info is dangerous . 
 So diversionary theory's are created to distract G.P.

And we're back to conspiracy theories making what you wrote above so uncredible that I'm not going to bother to look it up.

[james_s]

No I am not going to explain these physics & how they works .
 One reason why the world governments Don't tell people the WHOLE story .

For the world's governments to collude to hide something they would have to be united.
Over-unity is more likely than that.

The government can't even suppress the knowledge to break copy protection on DVD or bluray media, they haven't succeeded in stamping out file sharing of copyrighted music or movies, they hardly made a dent in it despite huge amounts of money behind the effort. Information has a tendency to get out and once the cat gets out of the bag it's impossible to put it back in. If somebody figured out how to circumvent the laws of energy, it would not take long at all for the knowledge to spread.

[Pulsepowerguy]

So you want to slow the Planet Down. Good idea .. 
 If we haven't got enough Hair brain scientist trying to do that already .

World energy consumption per year is 5.7*10^20 J. Rotational kinetic energy of the Earth is 2*10^29 J. So you could power the whole world for 350 million years until the spinning stops. If we would do it only a few decades, until fission or whatever works, the rotation wouldn't slow down more than maybe a second per day. Doesn't look dangerous to me.

OMG
First you can just pull fictitious Numbers out of a Hat.
 Just slowing the Planet by a second . would cause an orbit change . If your not aware the polar
ice is melting this due to an imbalance of the planet. Water is heaver than ice .
 Rising the oceans helps natural forces to stabilise rotation.
If the Planet slows by just a few seconds ''as you say it."
 Orbit change & reversal of poles. would happen .
 If the Poles reverse it would not be .. As you said 350 million years .
 More Like 350 days .
 

Talk about pulling things from a hat. Such a lot of hand waiving, and no data to support it. Might as well predict that dogs and cats will sleep together. 

BTW, the rotation of the planet is reduced, not its orbit; water is denser than ice, not heavier. Rising oceans stabilize Earth's rotation?!!?!?! Are the oceans rising because of rocks falling into them? 

[Brumby]

Rocks falling into water would reduce the moment of inertia as (most) rocks are denser than water  Due to the conservation of angular momentum, this means the angular velocity must increase.

So there's your solution - just dump the densest, most useless material you can find into the sea.

Politicians come to mind - closely followed by over unity proponents.

[Simon]

I suggest to stick to the simple things . LEGO would be fairly safe for you ..

I would give you that advice actually. Leave this thread now or I will ban you from the whole forum for good!

[steerex]

didyou notice one guys name was "Takeshite" and the other "Ohno"?

[Labrat101]

One second is enough to set off more volcanic eruptions as the earth's core & and crust are already getting unbalanced .
If you hadn't heard about global warming etc.  Landslides.  Toronto's . flooding. And seas rising.  Messing with nature is not a good idea. 
The mathematical formula is  . .
Pure speculation.