Author Topic: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s  (Read 2400 times)

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Offline technix

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This is from my visit to Allwinner stall at CES Asia yesterday. I grabbed an Allwinner rep and inquired about the long term availability of V3s, the BGA-free SBC chip.

"Allwinner can guarantee at least five years for the availability of V3s, and the same die is also being used in a few other parts for those that needs second sources or replacement parts."
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2019, 05:14:02 pm »
"the same die is also being used in a few other parts for those that needs second sources or replacement parts."

Does that mean "used in other AllWinner parts" or in third-party parts?

If it's the former, that would not really qualify as a second source, right? If it's the latter, I would love to know which are the other brands. And also would love to know whether it is common for multiple brands to share dies?

Thanks for further background, if you know more!
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2019, 05:28:00 pm »
That probably would be me!  ;D

I am no longer an interested in them, as I can slowly accumulate PI zero and zero/W enough for hobby projects. In particular I can get Pi zero/W  with pre-soldered header in unlimited  (x) quantity from an official Canadian Pi distributor BuyaPi.ca for $19 cad ($14.26 usd), At that price it is competitive with orange PI and similar. I suspect Pi foundation longevity of supply is even more trustworthy than whatever Allwinner tells you. With the official Pi I don't worry about the  BGA soldering and it has more RAM.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2019, 07:14:26 pm »
This is from my visit to Allwinner stall at CES Asia yesterday. I grabbed an Allwinner rep and inquired about the long term availability of V3s, the BGA-free SBC chip.

"Allwinner can guarantee at least five years for the availability of V3s, and the same die is also being used in a few other parts for those that needs second sources or replacement parts."
You take a salesperson's word for something that important?   :palm: If you depend on long term availability (and 5 years isn't long term at all) you better get something in writing. NXP (for example) has guaranteed availability of ARM SoCs for up to 15 years (from introduction). Now that is something you can base an industrial design on.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2019, 07:26:00 pm »
This is from my visit to Allwinner stall at CES Asia yesterday. I grabbed an Allwinner rep and inquired about the long term availability of V3s, the BGA-free SBC chip.

"Allwinner can guarantee at least five years for the availability of V3s, and the same die is also being used in a few other parts for those that needs second sources or replacement parts."
You take a salesperson's word for something that important?   :palm: If you depend on long term availability (and 5 years isn't long term at all) you better get something in writing. NXP (for example) has guaranteed availability of ARM SoCs for up to 15 years (from introduction). Now that is something you can base an industrial design on.
I was going to reply the same thing back then, but the silence of the OP about ebastler's questions made me dismiss the assertive as just vapourware.

Five years is enough for a production run of the newest cheap gadget that will ve replaced next year with a new thing.
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Offline technix

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 03:19:48 am »
You take a salesperson's word for something that important?   :palm: If you depend on long term availability (and 5 years isn't long term at all) you better get something in writing. NXP (for example) has guaranteed availability of ARM SoCs for up to 15 years (from introduction). Now that is something you can base an industrial design on.
I am not in a position that can ask them for anything in writing. In fact should it not be CES they would not even bother answer my inquiries. Allwinner HQ has a general refusal of response to any and all low volume customers.

Five years is enough for a production run of the newest cheap gadget that will ve replaced next year with a new thing.
V3s being now sold as an automotive market chip tells me something differently.
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2019, 06:58:52 pm »
There are two posts on the Olimex blog that explain AllWinners  policy for discontinued chips as Olimex still supplies A13 boards and others to the industrial market.
see may 13 post in https://olimex.wordpress.com/2019/05/16/long-term-olinuxino-supply-how-it-works/

and https://olimex.wordpress.com/2014/11/27/how-long-olinuxino-with-allwinner-socs-will-be-produced-again-now-we-know-the-answer-forever/
 

Offline splin

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2019, 01:47:30 am »
There are two posts on the Olimex blog that explain AllWinners  policy for discontinued chips as Olimex still supplies A13 boards and others to the industrial market.

So it's all hunky dory providing you can order 50K pieces at a time. Or you buy boards from Olimex and they have enough customers to justify buying 50k pieces periodically - but how long might you have to wait before Olimex have received enough orders/requests to justify buying another 50k pieces? At some point declining orders means they won't re-order  50k parts just because their stock drops below the usual re-order threshold if their sales projections can't justify it.

Not easy is it?
 

 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2019, 10:56:30 am »
Funny how the poorly written blogs try to convey the idea of supply chain reliability and endurance when the company itself only exists for a fraction of what they promise. This is not gained by blog posts but by track record, which takes a long time to build.

The (well deserved) criticism of western companies changing ownership all the time is eroded by the lack of a balanced view that many companies in China simply ceased to exist or changed names over all these years.

To me these are non independent ad posts - take their info with a *pound* of salt.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 09:15:54 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2019, 02:35:15 am »
There are two posts on the Olimex blog that explain AllWinners  policy for discontinued chips as Olimex still supplies A13 boards and others to the industrial market.

So it's all hunky dory providing you can order 50K pieces at a time. Or you buy boards from Olimex and they have enough customers to justify buying 50k pieces periodically - but how long might you have to wait before Olimex have received enough orders/requests to justify buying another 50k pieces? At some point declining orders means they won't re-order  50k parts just because their stock drops below the usual re-order threshold if their sales projections can't justify it.

Not easy is it?

Yes I came to that same conclusion  years ago. I am not an Olimex customer, but my intuition tells me they  tend to the industrial/kiosk end with some additional hobby market and they have been pestering OLIMEX about the reliability of supply. So I mentioned those blog posts because I thought they were topical to this thread and I didn't want to editorialize them.  AllWinner is fabless  (I think) and the report that they would revive an old part from their catalogue if you throw enough money at them rings true.

Here is a post I made in 2015, I'll quote in full:
 
@Stigaard

For me the comparison wouldn't be a broadcom or Rockchip part, they might be as bad or worse, I would compare to Freescale i.Mx or TI. soc. that are intended for the embedded industrial control market and have some promise of continuity of supply and good documentation. In TI case they claim 10 year availability or similar. I suppose I am risk averse and I view time spent designing in and committing to a new chip as a big risk. If you don't mind throwing that  effort away you may feel differently.

 Olimex is selling Allwinner boards into this type of market and their customers often ask, "how long will this be available". Tsevtan recently replied "don't worry Allwinner is stopping production of A10 but as long as we order 50,000 we can get them forever into the future".  Well I would worry, I was with a small manufacturer and we got put on allocation a few times. That was pain I will long remember. That promise from Olimex is unrealistic for two reasons. First the mask is tied to a particular scale  "node"  and when the fab changes, and they change on their own schedule not Olimex's whim, then that's it. In addition there is the negative feedback effect, Olimex tells customers wait until we get to 50,000 ordered and the customer will say we can't wait and then designs out the part. That will mean it never gets to 50000.

From the thread -
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/mediatek-mt5389/msg580840/#msg580840
edit: mucked up link
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 02:43:27 am by chickenHeadKnob »
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2019, 07:43:12 am »
Five years is enough for a production run of the newest cheap gadget that will ve replaced next year with a new thing.
V3s being now sold as an automotive market chip tells me something differently.
Chinese car manufacturing is not considered automotive, it is consumer.
We will talk about cars again, when one of them accidentally they got their first star on an European safety test.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2019, 07:57:57 am »
Chinese car manufacturing is not considered automotive, it is consumer.

Every Chinese car model has to pass Chinese government's compulsory certification process, which the standard is directly derived from European ISO standards.
Automotive electronics giant Infineon made $2.6BN in greater China region, more than all other markets, including EMEA. Guess where those parts went?

We will talk about cars again, when one of them accidentally they got their first star on an European safety test.

That's a stupid, narrow sighted and sinophobic statement. Chinese car companies don't sell in EU, so why would they get Euro NCAP ratings in the first place?
Rest of 100% Chinese designed EVs, China doesn't export cars at all due to IP restrictions (most Chinese cars are built on Western IPs, which part of the agreement is no market invasion).
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2019, 08:15:08 am »
Chinese car manufacturing is not considered automotive, it is consumer.

Every Chinese car model has to pass Chinese government's compulsory certification process, which the standard is directly derived from European ISO standards.
Automotive electronics giant Infineon made $2.6BN in greater China region, more than all other markets, including EMEA. Guess where those parts went?

We will talk about cars again, when one of them accidentally they got their first star on an European safety test.

That's a stupid, narrow sighted and sinophobic statement. Chinese car companies don't sell in EU, so why would they get Euro NCAP ratings in the first place?
Rest of 100% Chinese designed EVs, China doesn't export cars at all due to IP restrictions (most Chinese cars are built on Western IPs, which part of the agreement is no market invasion).
Buit they were tested in India to the Euro NCAP. And south america. They dont even have ESS.
https://dailykanban.com/2014/11/double-standards-5-star-rated-chinese-cars-failed-euro-ncap-rules/

BTW Germans have tested the "Brilliance" BS4 and BS6, awarding both 0 stars.
And your arguments are only strengthening my points. And nobody really knowing me would accuse me of being sinophobic.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2019, 08:21:12 am by NANDBlog »
 

Online blueskull

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2019, 08:49:06 am »
Buit they were tested in India to the Euro NCAP. And south america. They dont even have ESS.

ESP is not mandatory in China, so many cars don't have it.
My first car didn't even have a working airbag and I collided with another car on an Interstate and I walked to tell the tale.

The link you provided gave no other evidence Chinese cars are anywhere less safe, rest of a system that's considered not mandatory in China.
Did the reporter show why those Chinese cars failed rest of the lack of ESP? No. So nothing can prove Chinese cars are anywhere less safe rest of differences caused by different regulations.

Let me remind you that ESP was only made mandatory in US/CA/EU in the past 5~8 years, so it makes sense that Chinese government will not update its standards until its companies catch up.
Many Chinese cars sold nowadays have ESP, it's just not standard configuration. People will pay for safety, so car manufacturers can milk the people from ESP upgrades.
They keep lobbying the government not to make it mandatory, so they can cheat and rate a lower MSRP while milk for higher when the buyer actually buys the car. It's just capitalism.

As for ADAS, China doesn't need that. China has more direct ways to solve pedestrian fatalities -- iron curtain.
In China, drivers take a minimum 20% "humanitarian liability" when colliding with a non-motorized object, and that 20% liability can send you to jail for up to 3 years.
So, if you did absolutely perfect and even have a dash cam, and you collided with an ebike or pedestrian jumping red light and killed the person, you gotta pay a lot of blood money (1M CNY, $140k, depending on how well can you hide your wealth and how much you are at gaming theory) or go to jail.

BTW Germans have tested the "Brilliance" BS4 and BS6, awarding both 0 stars.

Based on the lacking of ESP?
My family car used to be a Brilliance Chonghwa 1.8T and it had seen a few collisions, from t-boning another car to small scratches and bumps, and it served us well for years.

Due to high petrol cost, my parents switched to two "paper thin" cars, both made in China of Kia's and Nissan's designs.
Those cars can be dented by pressing on them hard bare handed, but it seems they are popular in China, and nobody really complains.
The fact is, we just don't care.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2019, 10:05:01 am »
Based on the lacking of ESP?
No, based on "nothing will survive in this piece

https://www.adac.de/_ext/itr/tests/Crashtest/CT0222.pdf
This is the kind of bullshit you get from russian paper cars, and USA muscle cars designed by farmers (big engine, mo powa).
Anyway, we are off topc.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2019, 11:21:29 am »
(just to add to the off-topic, but just a bit). In Brasil, brands like Chery, Lifan or Geely sell their cars there, but they are considered very poor quality by the specialized press. And that is saying a lot in a country where the quality of the big brands is considered tremendously low by worldwide standards.

Never having driven one, I can't tell further.
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Offline technix

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2019, 02:01:34 am »
BTW Germans have tested the "Brilliance" BS4 and BS6, awarding both 0 stars.
Have they tested something higher end like FAW Hongqi series? Brilliance is a low-end brand and those two are low-end model to begin with. There is no point complaining a Prius being less reliable than a Tesla Model X.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2019, 09:09:57 am »
There is no point complaining a Prius being less reliable than a Tesla Model X.

Are they? There is a big difference between omitting fancy features, top engine power or torque on the one hand, and compromising safety or reliability on the other hand. I don't think Toyota compromises the latter, or could get away with doing that -- despite the fact that they are not "luxury cars" like the Tesla Model X.

That may be a key difference to China: It appears that Chinese entry-level car brands can get away with compromised safety?
 
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Online blueskull

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2019, 09:34:39 am »
That may be a key difference to China: It appears that Chinese entry-level car brands can get away with compromised safety?

The so called safety features were not mandated 10 years ago, and people have been driving for over a century.
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2019, 11:19:53 am »
That may be a key difference to China: It appears that Chinese entry-level car brands can get away with compromised safety?

The so called safety features were not mandated 10 years ago, and people have been driving for over a century.

The discussion was not about ESP, but about crash tests -- mechanical safety by design. Which protects drivers and their passengers not only from the results of their own driving, but also from third parties' behavior, which is out of their control.

To my (Western) mind, building cars which sacrifice solid safety design is just like allowing unsafe work practices or massive environmental pollution in the production of consumer goods: For the sake of profit, and maybe the sake of making cheap toys available to consumers, the manufacturer puts human lifes and health at risk.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2019, 06:28:30 pm »
The discussion was not about ESP, but about crash tests -- mechanical safety by design. Which protects drivers and their passengers not only from the results of their own driving, but also from third parties' behavior, which is out of their control.

To my (Western) mind, building cars which sacrifice solid safety design is just like allowing unsafe work practices or massive environmental pollution in the production of consumer goods: For the sake of profit, and maybe the sake of making cheap toys available to consumers, the manufacturer puts human lifes and health at risk.
What about motorcycles with even less safety?

I actually think that drivers with a history of behavior (e.g. drunk or reckless driving) that put the public at risk should be restricted to driving only motorcycles or flimsy cars, in order to push the risk towards them and away from the innocent public.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2019, 06:36:24 pm »
What about motorcycles with even less safety?

Yes? What about them?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
 
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Offline NANDBlog

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2019, 09:27:24 pm »
Since discussion is completely OT, mind as well...
The discussion was not about ESP, but about crash tests -- mechanical safety by design. Which protects drivers and their passengers not only from the results of their own driving, but also from third parties' behavior, which is out of their control.

To my (Western) mind, building cars which sacrifice solid safety design is just like allowing unsafe work practices or massive environmental pollution in the production of consumer goods: For the sake of profit, and maybe the sake of making cheap toys available to consumers, the manufacturer puts human lifes and health at risk.
What about motorcycles with even less safety?

I actually think that drivers with a history of behavior (e.g. drunk or reckless driving) that put the public at risk should be restricted to driving only motorcycles or flimsy cars, in order to push the risk towards them and away from the innocent public.
Well, right now, you are 50 times more likely to die if you ride a motorcycle or a moped. In fact, most people think motorcyclists should be organ donors by default, without their consent.

That may be a key difference to China: It appears that Chinese entry-level car brands can get away with compromised safety?

The so called safety features were not mandated 10 years ago, and people have been driving for over a century.
Yes, and the number of fatal crashes has been steadily decreasing.

The cyclists are up there, cause they refuse to wear a helmet, and their eyes are glued to phones.
And these are pretty much the safest roads on the planet.
BTW Germans have tested the "Brilliance" BS4 and BS6, awarding both 0 stars.
Have they tested something higher end like FAW Hongqi series? Brilliance is a low-end brand and those two are low-end model to begin with. There is no point complaining a Prius being less reliable than a Tesla Model X.
Lol why would they, they are not even considered to be sold there. I'm quite sure you think of these cars as the pinnacle of technology, but a European will look at it, and call it hideous. And they dont crash test all cars, for example you will not see a Catherham crash test or a Rolls-Royce. Cause limited money, buyer not interested in crash test result and all that.

And there is a point comparing them. Seriously, dont go into an argument about things that you just assume, and easy to disprove.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2018/10/25/the-most-and-least-reliable-rides-on-the-road/#6e8b5a0652c7
So apparently, Teslas are shoddy work, and Toyotas are reliable.
"While the brand’s latest EV, the Model 3, is predicted to deliver average reliability, that’s not the case with the pricier Model S sedan and Model X SUV. The latter has long been ranked poorly for reliability by CR, with owners most perturbed by issues with the vehicle’s falcon doors and its oversized dashboard-display screen. The Model S has been up and down over its lifespan with regard to CR’s ratings. It’s been downgraded to a “below average” rating this year, due in part to suspension problems and other concerns that include the car’s finicky extending door handles."
Wow, they already achieved average reliability.
 

Online blueskull

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2019, 09:34:26 pm »
Yes, and the number of fatal crashes has been steadily decreasing.

Considering most Chinese drivers (not only China, basically everywhere rest of the West) don't even wear seat belts, ESP is your least concern.

In China, there are seat belt inserts to trick alert circuit, and seat belt printed shirts to trick cops and cameras.

Do I drive that stupidly? No, but it's common in China. We just have a different safety culture than the West.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: For those who are worrying about the longevity of Allwinner V3s
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2019, 02:45:24 am »
Well, right now, you are 50 times more likely to die if you ride a motorcycle or a moped. In fact, most people think motorcyclists should be organ donors by default, without their consent.
If they ban cheap, flimsy cars for being unsafe, why don't they also ban motorcycles for being even more unsafe? I think an analysis of the (reduced) risks such vehicles pose to others would help support the idea of restricting bad drivers to those, increasing the safety of the good drivers.
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