SBC with 64-bit Linux

[NorthGuy]

Anyone would recommend an SBC which would have a stable fully 64-bit (Aarch64) Linux image (any distro), preferably under $50? I wanted to use Raspberry Pi, but it appears that they're still at the very beginning of the 64-bit migration process.

[brucehoult]

I'm running 64 bit Ubuntu on my Pi 4. Seems to work ok.

But I've been using 64 bit Linux on an Odroid C2 for three years already maybe. It's far better than any pi before the 4.

[Kerlin]

And is it better than the pi4 ?

[brucehoult]

I can't see how. Pi4 is about 1.8x faster, can be bought with 4 GB RAM vs 2 GB. Both achieve full gigE speeds. I don't know how the GPUs compare.

Odroid has eMMC, which the Pi4 doesn't -- it's stuck with slow SD card.

[Ed.Kloonk]

SBC is something I watch enthusiastically from a distance due to time constraints.

There is a Youtuber channel Explaining Computers. Don't let the channel name fool you. In recent years it's host Chris Barnatt, a UK-based professional educator, features the latest SBCs. And he has no patience for lousy OSes that may be bundled with them. He is a cool guy. Hit him up.

https://explainingcomputers.com/
https://www.youtube.com/explainingcomputers

One thing I have noticed, the SD card is going away. The OS purveyors who do not acknowledge this as prolly the ones to avoid.

[SiliconWizard]

Anyone would recommend an SBC which would have a stable fully 64-bit (Aarch64) Linux image (any distro), preferably under $50? I wanted to use Raspberry Pi, but it appears that they're still at the very beginning of the 64-bit migration process.

There's a couple distros supporting this now on the RPi4, but not sure they qualify as "stable" as you said. What's your intended use?

The Odroid boards are indeed pretty good (I've had an X2 and an XU4.) As Bruce said, eMMC makes a real difference here. Downside is: it adds cost (take the cost of eMMC modules into consideration), and the connectors - don't really like them... You'd probably have to glue the module in place for long term reliability.

I've tested a couple boards from FriendlyElec. https://www.friendlyarm.com/
Fair prices, very good performance overall, and some have M2 connectors! Ubuntu 64-bit is supported on most of them.

[NorthGuy]

What's your intended use?

My usage is very light. I need to port some software to Aarch64, and I need a platform where I can run gcc, gdb etc. My main requirement is to minimize the time spent settting up the system or chasing system bugs (that's what I mean by "Stable" ). There are lots of SBCs around and they offer images for download, but most of them don't even mention if their images are 32-bit or 64-bit.

Thanks to Bruce I found the Ubuntu distro for RPi. At least this one says it is 64-bit, but it doesn't feel like something which is heavily used by many people (as Raspbian is), so I'm afraid may not be as "stable" as I hope.

[brucehoult]

I posted a link in November. I've been using it on my Pi4 since, with zero crashes.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/embedded-computing/raspberry-pi-4/msg2764972/#msg2764972

Certainly plenty stable for development work. I can't say about it as an embedded system that *must* stay up.

[NorthGuy]

I've been using it on my Pi4 since, with zero crashes.

I ordered RPi from DigiKey. I'll try the Snappy Ubuntu from here:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ARM/RaspberryPi

At other times, I would probably consider Nano Pi and Orange Pi as well, but it's not possible to order things from China at the moment and nobody knows how long it's going to last. So, there's no other choice

[ve7xen]

What's your intended use?

My usage is very light. I need to port some software to Aarch64, and I need a platform where I can run gcc, gdb etc. My main requirement is to minimize the time spent settting up the system or chasing system bugs (that's what I mean by "Stable" ). There are lots of SBCs around and they offer images for download, but most of them don't even mention if their images are 32-bit or 64-bit.

Thanks to Bruce I found the Ubuntu distro for RPi. At least this one says it is 64-bit, but it doesn't feel like something which is heavily used by many people (as Raspbian is), so I'm afraid may not be as "stable" as I hope.

If your requirement is just development, why not just use a cross-compiler and/or virtualization?

For example: https://translatedcode.wordpress.com/2017/07/24/installing-debian-on-qemus-64-bit-arm-virt-board/

[chickenHeadKnob]

Northguy: I can sell you a gently pre-owned Odroid C2 for whatever current half price is, if you want it. I have changed my mind on all of these ARM based boards and now am focused on x86

[brucehoult]

What's your intended use?

My usage is very light. I need to port some software to Aarch64, and I need a platform where I can run gcc, gdb etc. My main requirement is to minimize the time spent settting up the system or chasing system bugs (that's what I mean by "Stable" ). There are lots of SBCs around and they offer images for download, but most of them don't even mention if their images are 32-bit or 64-bit.

Thanks to Bruce I found the Ubuntu distro for RPi. At least this one says it is 64-bit, but it doesn't feel like something which is heavily used by many people (as Raspbian is), so I'm afraid may not be as "stable" as I hope.

If your requirement is just development, why not just use a cross-compiler and/or virtualization?

For example: https://translatedcode.wordpress.com/2017/07/24/installing-debian-on-qemus-64-bit-arm-virt-board/

A Pi 4 is just a few bucks and is twice the speed of qemu-user on a modern PC (and qemu-system is much slower again) -- assuming what you're doing fits into 4 GB of RAM.

However qemu is a good option for RISC-V development. qemu-system is about 2/3 the speed of the (pretty expensive) HiFive Unleashed, but qemu-user is not only faster than the Unleashed, it's also faster than a Pi 4.

[NorthGuy]

Northguy: I can sell you a gently pre-owned Odroid C2 for whatever current half price is, if you want it. I have changed my mind on all of these ARM based boards and now am focused on x86

I would've bought it. But my RPi is already on its way from DigiKey!

[ve7xen]

What's your intended use?

My usage is very light. I need to port some software to Aarch64, and I need a platform where I can run gcc, gdb etc. My main requirement is to minimize the time spent settting up the system or chasing system bugs (that's what I mean by "Stable" ). There are lots of SBCs around and they offer images for download, but most of them don't even mention if their images are 32-bit or 64-bit.

Thanks to Bruce I found the Ubuntu distro for RPi. At least this one says it is 64-bit, but it doesn't feel like something which is heavily used by many people (as Raspbian is), so I'm afraid may not be as "stable" as I hope.

If your requirement is just development, why not just use a cross-compiler and/or virtualization?

For example: https://translatedcode.wordpress.com/2017/07/24/installing-debian-on-qemus-64-bit-arm-virt-board/

A Pi 4 is just a few bucks and is twice the speed of qemu-user on a modern PC (and qemu-system is much slower again) -- assuming what you're doing fits into 4 GB of RAM.

However qemu is a good option for RISC-V development. qemu-system is about 2/3 the speed of the (pretty expensive) HiFive Unleashed, but qemu-user is not only faster than the Unleashed, it's also faster than a Pi 4.

Well yeah it's not going to be fast, but if all you need it for is to build (and you don't even really need it for that, cross compiling is pretty easy) and test aarch64 binaries, that's not really much of a problem. IMO it's much more convenient than having an external box, you can integrate it into your build scripts and so on.

[brucehoult]

Well yeah it's not going to be fast, but if all you need it for is to build (and you don't even really need it for that, cross compiling is pretty easy) and test aarch64 binaries, that's not really much of a problem. IMO it's much more convenient than having an external box, you can integrate it into your build scripts and so on.

An external box that supports ssh, nfs etc is easy to integrate into build scripts :-) And it's the only way to get reliable performance numbers, or to talk to specialized hardware peripherals.

A lot of software is surprisingly difficult to cross compile, especially things that do things such as compile a program that is then used to generate more code that is then compiled. And a bunch of other ways that some things need host settings or programs and other things need target settings or programs. It can be done, but it takes great care in setting up the build system and it is easy broken by people who are *not* cross-compiling.

So "native builds" are often necessary in a practical sense, even if they are emulated.

[SiliconWizard]

Well yeah it's not going to be fast, but if all you need it for is to build (and you don't even really need it for that, cross compiling is pretty easy) and test aarch64 binaries, that's not really much of a problem. IMO it's much more convenient than having an external box, you can integrate it into your build scripts and so on.

An external box that supports ssh, nfs etc is easy to integrate into build scripts :-)

Oh yeah. Just connect the Pi to your ethernet network, then SSH it.

If you're on Windows, you can use Putty for SSH terminal sessions, and WinSCP, for instance, for file transfers.

[gmb42]

If you're on Windows, you can use Putty for SSH terminal sessions, and WinSCP, for instance, for file transfers.

And if you're one of the "enlightened", Win 10 1809 or later has a built in OpenSSH implementation.  See here for more info.

[NorthGuy]

Oh yeah. Just connect the Pi to your ethernet network, then SSH it.

I wasn't even going to use SSH. My software has GUI interface. I will create a shared RAM partition on the SBC. My build process will drop all the files into the partition, then I'll test them using the display and the keyboard connected to the SBC.

[brucehoult]

If you're on Windows, you can use Putty for SSH terminal sessions, and WinSCP, for instance, for file transfers.

And if you're one of the "enlightened", Win 10 1809 or later has a built in OpenSSH implementation.  See here for more info.

What's this "Windows" thing?

I run Ubuntu Linux on my ThreadRipper, my NUC, and my work ThinkPad and I run Ubuntu where possible and Debian otherwise (the same thing on a scripting/programming/software packaging level) on SBCs.

It makes things a lot easier to have the same shells, apps, utilities everywhere, with the same options too.

[langwadt]

I can't see how. Pi4 is about 1.8x faster, can be bought with 4 GB RAM vs 2 GB. Both achieve full gigE speeds. I don't know how the GPUs compare.

Odroid has eMMC, which the Pi4 doesn't -- it's stuck with slow SD card.

is the emmc on a wider bus? the interface for SD and emmc is basically the same, you could make an SD card with an emmc on it and in most cases it'll work

[David Hess]

I would start at the the Single Board Computer Database.

[NorthGuy]

I would start at the the Single Board Computer Database.

Wow. That's a huge database. A simple search reveal 99 ARM entries. However, the availability of 64-bit Linux (or OS in general) is not on the parameter list.

[gmb42]

If you're on Windows, you can use Putty for SSH terminal sessions, and WinSCP, for instance, for file transfers.

And if you're one of the "enlightened", Win 10 1809 or later has a built in OpenSSH implementation.  See here for more info.

What's this "Windows" thing?

I run Ubuntu Linux on my ThreadRipper, my NUC, and my work ThinkPad and I run Ubuntu where possible and Debian otherwise (the same thing on a scripting/programming/software packaging level) on SBCs.

It makes things a lot easier to have the same shells, apps, utilities everywhere, with the same options too.

If you'd looked at the bit I quoted, rather than just jumping on the all Windows is crap bandwagon, then you would have seen that I was commenting on the requirement of installing PuTTY to use SSH on a modern Windows install.

P.S. I use multiple OS's daily for both the day job and for my own purposes, I don't need any advice on what I should be using.  What works for you is great for you.

[nctnico]

I can't see how. Pi4 is about 1.8x faster, can be bought with 4 GB RAM vs 2 GB. Both achieve full gigE speeds. I don't know how the GPUs compare.

Odroid has eMMC, which the Pi4 doesn't -- it's stuck with slow SD card.

is the emmc on a wider bus? the interface for SD and emmc is basically the same, you could make an SD card with an emmc on it and in most cases it'll work

eMMC is typically on a 4 to 8 bit bus where SD is 4 bit at most. eMMC typically also has wear levelling which SD lacks.

More ontopic: there a lots of ARM64 platforms (NXP iMX8, NVidia Jetson) but the $50 mark is hard to hit. The Jetson Nano dev kit is on sale for $89. The module alone likely costs more.

[nctnico]

If your requirement is just development, why not just use a cross-compiler and/or virtualization?

Because cross compiling sucks. It is much easier to develop on a platform directly where you can run a debugger straight from the IDE. Typical Arm64 platforms are powerfull enough nowadays to use for development.