Author Topic: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37  (Read 40910 times)

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Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2021, 04:05:08 pm »
I've found out if the lower package IO pin count matches between devices, the die matches.  For any the Cyclones, Quartus cant even tell which device your JTag is connected to, you need to tell Quartus during compile, IE, the limitations Quartus tells you based on your compiled device is purely software limited.  Once the free IO count drops for a given package, the die is different.  Since MAX10 has a built in flash, it may have a hidden fuse or once tricked into a larger device, it becomes that device.
In Xilinx world each device density have it's own JTAG ID, even though some devices share the same die (there are four different Artix dies - one for 15T/35T/50T, 12T/25T, 75T/100T and the largest 200T). So you can't cross program different densities, however it might be possible to program in different speed grade (which of course with throw away all performance guarantees).

Offline JopeTopic starter

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2021, 04:22:38 pm »
I don't really know what I'm gonna do with them, but I ordered a couple anyway :-DD I wonder what's the internal flash endurance? How many times can be in overwritten before it goes bust?

According to the "Intel® MAX® 10 FPGA Configuration User Guide" you can both program the internal flash and the internal configuration SRAM (called CRAM) over JTAG. So you don't have to program the flash every time you want to test something (see page 5 of the configuration manual).
 
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Offline ResistorsAreFutile

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2021, 05:19:09 pm »
In Xilinx world each device density have it's own JTAG ID, even though some devices share the same die (there are four different Artix dies - one for 15T/35T/50T, 12T/25T, 75T/100T and the largest 200T). So you can't cross program different densities, however it might be possible to program in different speed grade (which of course with throw away all performance guarantees).
That seems to be how it is with the MAX 10 also. Running a JTAG auto ID gives a list of parts with the same density, but requires the user to pick the feature set (SC, DA, etc) and speed grade.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2021, 10:05:51 pm »
In Xilinx world each device density have it's own JTAG ID, even though some devices share the same die (there are four different Artix dies - one for 15T/35T/50T, 12T/25T, 75T/100T and the largest 200T). So you can't cross program different densities, however it might be possible to program in different speed grade (which of course with throw away all performance guarantees).
It is possible to program different device densities/utilisations:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/artix-7-only-has-three-different-die-sizes/msg837185/#msg837185
The same method should work for other parts. There are no checks for speed grade on most (all?) parts, so its something that needs to be carefully checked before releasing to production!
 

Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2021, 11:57:22 pm »
It is possible to program different device densities/utilisations:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/artix-7-only-has-three-different-die-sizes/msg837185/#msg837185
The same method should work for other parts. There are no checks for speed grade on most (all?) parts, so its something that needs to be carefully checked before releasing to production!
Interesting. Still - I would never do something like that for production. Maybe for hacking stuff around, but that's about it. Manufacturer's performance guarantees matter to me much more in production designs than some difference in price. Especially since customer is paying for it anyway. Same goes for speed grade - I don't have equipment to properly qualify my boards over PVT, so I have to rely on manufacturer's guaranteed performance values when creating design.
Another curious fact is that Xilinx apparently planned to have offer higher Artix density (350T), but it was cancelled for some reason.

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2021, 05:28:40 pm »
 :palm: I'm going over their schematic.  They tied the DDR3 CLK_n&p to a general emulated differential IO pair instead of going right to the PLL dedicated differential outputs.

I know this is functional, but the dedicated PLL outputs are ultra-precise, extra low noise, support to 475MHz, lower temperature phase drift outputs which have direct routing to the PLL, (not to mention that those pins can also be configured as a differential IO) where I can choose a custom offset phase which does not need to be routed throughout the FPGA clocking network.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 05:36:19 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2021, 06:02:27 pm »
:palm: I'm going over their schematic.  They tied the DDR3 CLK_n&p to a general emulated differential IO pair instead of going right to the PLL dedicated differential outputs.

I know this is functional, but the dedicated PLL outputs are ultra-precise, extra low noise, support to 475MHz, lower temperature phase drift outputs which have direct routing to the PLL, (not to mention that those pins can also be configured as a differential IO) where I can choose a custom offset phase which does not need to be routed throughout the FPGA clocking network.
It could be that they had to do it this way for layout reasons. As you will see shortly, the board is incredibly densely populated in that region.

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2021, 10:56:52 pm »
Those FN DAMN BLUE LEDS!!!!!

Whats with everyone and FN blue...
Green would green, or orange and red would have been much nicer and more comfortable to the eyes.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:10:50 pm by BrianHG »
 

Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2021, 03:25:07 am »
Those FN DAMN BLUE LEDS!!!!!

Whats with everyone and FN blue...
Green would green, or orange and red would have been much nicer and more comfortable to the eyes.
I like blue, it's more comfortable to my eyes than other colors :-//
I guess you can replace them if they bother you so much.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 03:42:03 am by asmi »
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2021, 10:20:38 am »
For blue or too bright LEDs, cut a small piece of yellow post-it (from the rubber-glue area) and stick it on top of the LEDs.
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2021, 09:40:26 pm »
For blue or too bright LEDs, cut a small piece of yellow post-it (from the rubber-glue area) and stick it on top of the LEDs.
I like working in the dark, they illuminate the entire room and are blinding to look at...
It's ok, I just program them off, or make them extra dim when in use.
 

Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2021, 12:24:47 am »
I like working in the dark, they illuminate the entire room and are blinding to look at...
This is not good for you eyes. You'd better have some ambient lighting.

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2021, 06:04:49 pm »
:palm: I'm going over their schematic.  They tied the DDR3 CLK_n&p to a general emulated differential IO pair instead of going right to the PLL dedicated differential outputs.

I know this is functional, but the dedicated PLL outputs are ultra-precise, extra low noise, support to 475MHz, lower temperature phase drift outputs which have direct routing to the PLL, (not to mention that those pins can also be configured as a differential IO) where I can choose a custom offset phase which does not need to be routed throughout the FPGA clocking network.
My mistake, they are using a CLK output port designed to drive a DDR CK & CK# pin (as described by the pin name in the data sheet), though it is not a directly 'PLL' driven port.  I cannot find any 'explicit' description of the pins other than they are DDR IOs.
 

Offline slburris

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2021, 10:40:22 pm »
I ordered and received a couple a few days ago.  But now when I go to the Arrow site, it shows plenty in stock but no longer shows a price, just a “quote” button.  I wonder if they got a bunch of orders from this post and decided it was too much of a good thing?
 

Offline migry

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2021, 11:02:07 pm »
This offer doesn't appear to be available in the UK :-(

Some time ago I saw a reference to this dev board on the channel "MickMake". Then having made regular videos Mick appears to have disappeared completely. It seemed really well featured, had HDMI, so I was interested at the time, but it wasn't available then either. I did check the date of the first posting, as I expected it to be several years old, but nope it was posted in 2021.
 

Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2021, 11:34:42 pm »
This offer doesn't appear to be available in the UK :-(
It looks like it disappeared everywhere. So it was good that I was quick :)
If you still want one, you might want to PM nockieboy and ask if he will be willing to sell you one as he said he got two.

Online asmi

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2021, 11:42:17 pm »
I ordered and received a couple a few days ago.  But now when I go to the Arrow site, it shows plenty in stock but no longer shows a price, just a “quote” button.  I wonder if they got a bunch of orders from this post and decided it was too much of a good thing?
Yea looks the same on my side. That said, when I placed my order, there were over 2K in stock, and now it's below 1.5K. So they sold at least 500 units in this timeframe.
As for "Quote" thingy, it could be that they ran out of stock in their "hot" warehouse, and have the rest of units at some other facility, and so they require an order to move units out of long-term storage into a "hot" one. Or maybe they've realized that they underestimated the demand, and initiated the move already, so that we can expect to see more items in actual stock in the coming days.

Whatever the reason is, if you want them, it would make sense to request a quote, as they typically come with no obligations to actually complete a transaction.

Offline JopeTopic starter

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2021, 11:53:31 pm »
That said, when I placed my order, there were over 2K in stock, and now it's below 1.5K

I'm sure you are wrong. When I posted the link, there were 1600 and something in stock. So they sold about 100+, but certainly not 500. I checked the stock before I posted the link, because I was interested in how many would order it.
 

Offline migry

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2021, 12:29:30 am »
OK, I went ahead and asked for a quote. If the price is really low then I could order a couple and try to flog the other one  ;) .

The thing I liked about this board, apart from the HDMI, which I enjoy playing with, despite the demise of the excellent HamsterNZ website, is the I/O expansion is 0.1" which gives lots of spare pins, hopefully enough to wire up a large SRAM (for video memory), since I don't want to go down the DD3 rabbit hole.

On another Terasic board (2nd hand Ebay purchase) I was able to get the NIOS processor to work, but it only works while the JTAG is hooked up. I think that the DDR2(3?) is not a free licenced IP. It would be useful to have a small CPU as part of my FPGA projects, but for the reasons mentioned it won't be a NIOS.
 

Offline JopeTopic starter

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2021, 03:22:22 am »
I think that the DDR2(3?) is not a free licenced IP.

Haven't tried it yet, but AFAIK the UniPHY IP core is free and works with this MAX 10 (speed grade 6).
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2021, 04:38:20 am »
I think that the DDR2(3?) is not a free licenced IP.

Haven't tried it yet, but AFAIK the UniPHY IP core is free and works with this MAX 10 (speed grade 6).
Yup, just noticed that the other day.  It should make controlling the DDR3 easy.
I'm looking into the hard custom way.  Come back in 7 days...
 

Offline slburris

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2021, 06:13:09 pm »
Anyone get a response from Arrow?  I've sent several quote requests at different quantities, but they seem to be landing in a black hole.
 

Offline Miti

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2021, 01:35:03 am »
Anyone in the GTA interested in splitting a purchase?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 11:04:35 am by Miti »
Fear does not stop death, it stops life.
 

Offline up8051

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2021, 03:04:39 pm »
Anyone get a response from Arrow?  I've sent several quote requests at different quantities, but they seem to be landing in a black hole.

Did you get any response?
 

Offline slburris

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Re: Arrow DECA MAX 10 board for $37
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2021, 03:32:06 pm »
Anyone get a response from Arrow?  I've sent several quote requests at different quantities, but they seem to be landing in a black hole.

Did you get any response?

Nope, no response at all from Arrow. 
 


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