Author Topic: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!  (Read 12770 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
It looks like Xilinx has decided to introduce something that common folks can actually use and play around with: https://www.xilinx.com/news/media-kits/xilinx-expands-into-new-applications-with-cost-optimized-ultrascale-portfolio.html There is a presentation PDF which is worth going over if you're interested.

I wonder what they are going to cost. For Zynq, since cheapest existing Zynq ZU2 goes for US$270, ZU1 has got to be cheaper than that, which kind of goes into regular Zynq-020 pricing territory. So seeing how ZU1 is not that much smaller than ZU2, I would expect high-100 to low-200 US$ for ZU2.
But I'm personally much more excited for new Artix US+ devices, as they have a potential to offer a great platform for interfacing with DAC/ADC via JESD204B interface, which often go into 16Gbps territory, as well as PCI Express 4.0 support, and NATIVE support for MIPI and LVDS for up to 2500 Mbps per pin pair, as well as my personal favorite - support for DDR4-2400! It it not explicitly mentioned in the press release (or I missed it) if these devices are going to be available in free Webpack license, but if their history is anything to go by, they include their entire "Cost-optimized" (as they call it :palm: ) portfolio in that free package. And - again, the question of price. Right now the cheapest Kintex US+ is over US$1100 on DK, so there is a big hole in the segment and they will likely eventually introduce enough devices to fill entire 200-1000 market segment. So if I were to guess, I'd say between US$100 and 200 for the smallest density on Digikey. It's cool that they now offering a single package 676 balls@1mm pitch with a vertical scalability across entire family, with full 16.3Gbps transceivers.

What do you guys think?

Offline dtodorov

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: bg
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2021, 06:08:45 pm »
I think other SoCs vendors are in somewhat in danger. Probably the Zynq devices may never reach the unit price of a regular SoC w/o PL though.
 

Offline miken

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 102
  • Country: us
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2021, 09:13:08 pm »
The UltraZed is $485 with a ZU3, so I can't imagine a ZU1 will make Zynq Ultrascale+ all that much cheaper of a platform... Fun stuff though.

Artix US+ is indeed more interesting. Xilinx has gotten better at reducing the announcement to availability delay in recent years, so maybe they'll hit Digi-Key by Christmas?  :P
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2021, 09:20:24 pm »
Artix US+ is indeed more interesting. Xilinx has gotten better at reducing the announcement to availability delay in recent years, so maybe they'll hit Digi-Key by Christmas?  :P
I hope so. I would be up for a samples, but I doubt Xilinx is going to be interested unless I wave a 1M$ purchase order over them, so DK it is. Also I hope they will add smaller 1 mm pitch packages in the future as the only one announced so far is 676 balls. That said, I will reserve my judgment until I can see pinout diagrams, because some 676 pinouts are worse than others, Artix-7 ones being among the worst as it requires a 10 layer PCB (or expensive blind vias) to fully route out, while 676 package for Kintex devices is much better can be easily fully routed out on a 6 or 8 layer boards with no BB vias required.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 09:24:00 pm by asmi »
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1872
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2021, 09:25:19 pm »
Also would be nice if the integrated capacitors from Kintex could make it into the new Artix parts.  That factor alone would simplify routing.
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2021, 01:08:27 am »
Also would be nice if the integrated capacitors from Kintex could make it into the new Artix parts.  That factor alone would simplify routing.
I've checked Kintex US+ device in the same FFVB676 package, and it looks like it does have high-frequency capacitors on a package, as they only specify only one 10 uF and one 47 uF caps per IO bank. Same goes for Vccint/Vccbram rail.

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3136
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2021, 03:02:59 am »
For some reason, much less IOs compared to regular Artix/Kintex.
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2021, 03:47:51 am »
For some reason, much less IOs compared to regular Artix/Kintex.
That is actually not surprising because transceivers take a lot of pins (they require ground "fence" around them for SI reasons). Take a look at existing Kintex US+ device diagram in FFVB676 package - you will see it clearly.
More important issue is that there are not that many 3.3 V-tolerant pins, as majority of IO are HP and so 1.8 V max.
 
The following users thanked this post: diyaudio

Online ali_asadzadeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1896
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2021, 06:46:33 am »
I wait till I can get them in china for like 15-50$ anything more than that, I can buy XC7K325  for 100$ in china right now.
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
 

Offline filssavi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 433
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2021, 08:03:56 am »
I think other SoCs vendors are in somewhat in danger. Probably the Zynq devices may never reach the unit price of a regular SoC w/o PL though.

I think they will not be too worried, the 4 cores in these processors are fairly old and run at a low(ish) frequency, to compete
The Smartphone SoC will run laps around them, it isn’t even fair thus Qualcomm, Samsung, mediatek and apple don’t even need to bother

If we look at the I.Mx line things get a little more interesting, the high end parts will probably be priced close to the low end zynqs however they have 4 A53 and  running at up to 2.4 GHz (1.8 nominal) and 2 A72s at 2.5 (2 nominal) thus they still have much more compute power

Now if you can use the FPGA portion to do work the bilance might shift, however as processors alone they are quite underwelming
 

Online ali_asadzadeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1896
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 10:51:21 am »
Quote
You can buy used mining cards with 325 for $15... That's where you get those $100 reballed chips.
Not sure about the quality though. Mining cards are generally run at max voltage and max clock with no air conditioning for 24/7 until they start to crash, so those $15 ones are likely in their death beds.
Are these reballed ? since LCSC prices are about 30-40% higher than taobao.
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/CPLD-FPGA_XILINX-XC7K325T-2FFG900I_C396344.html
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 01:23:16 pm »
I wait till I can get them in china for like 15-50$ anything more than that, I can buy XC7K325  for 100$ in china right now.
If specs are to be believed, Artix US+ is going to be significantly faster than existing Kintex-7. So I'm afraid you will have to wait for a very long time.

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2021, 01:25:27 pm »
I think they will not be too worried, the 4 cores in these processors are fairly old and run at a low(ish) frequency, to compete
The Smartphone SoC will run laps around them, it isn’t even fair thus Qualcomm, Samsung, mediatek and apple don’t even need to bother

If we look at the I.Mx line things get a little more interesting, the high end parts will probably be priced close to the low end zynqs however they have 4 A53 and  running at up to 2.4 GHz (1.8 nominal) and 2 A72s at 2.5 (2 nominal) thus they still have much more compute power

Now if you can use the FPGA portion to do work the bilance might shift, however as processors alone they are quite underwelming
Lol. Nobody in his right mind will use Zynqs as strictly CPUs without any FPGA resources. Their competition are similar FPGA-CPU hybrids from other FPGA vendors, specifically from Microsemi/Microchip and Intel.
 
The following users thanked this post: filssavi

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3136
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2021, 04:10:28 pm »
Now if you can use the FPGA portion to do work the bilance might shift, however as processors alone they are quite underwelming

It's like you were buying a car and said that as a CD player alone it is quite underwhelming.
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2021, 04:45:20 pm »
It's like you were buying a car and said that as a CD player alone it is quite underwhelming.
My car is an absolute disaster of a CD player because it hasn't got one :-DD

Online ali_asadzadeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1896
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2021, 05:08:00 pm »
Quote
If specs are to be believed, Artix US+ is going to be significantly faster than existing Kintex-7. So I'm afraid you will have to wait for a very long time
I don't think so, I think maybe a 1 year or a year and a half maximum, china always surprise you, you can already buy artix7 100K with LUT around 20$, so I guess these new Ultra scales are born to replace them with 5% price overhead to these ones.
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2021, 05:35:36 pm »
I don't think so, I think maybe a 1 year or a year and a half maximum, china always surprise you, you can already buy artix7 100K with LUT around 20$, so I guess these new Ultra scales are born to replace them with 5% price overhead to these ones.
Good luck in your waiting! We'll revisit this in a year, just to see how good you are at predictions ;)
I think we'll be lucky to have these parts in stock at DK in a year, let alone anywhere else.

Online ali_asadzadeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1896
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2021, 08:26:18 pm »
We all will be lucky! I have designed a brand new board based on K325, and I just have ordered the PCB and The FPGA from JLCPCB and my chinese supplier for 100$ each, I hope every thing works as expected. Here you can take a look before I get my hands on this new puppy! I will share the results when I made progress.

It has 2 SFP, 2 Gigabit Ethernet, 2 USB host, 64Bit DDR3, one  SATA, one  4K HMDI, one  audio codec, and one LCD, and a lot of expansion connectors including 2.54mm and FPC's with 10Gbps SERDES for External ADC and DAC >:D 8)

ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2021, 08:47:46 pm »
We all will be lucky! I have designed a brand new board based on K325, and I just have ordered the PCB and The FPGA from JLCPCB and my chinese supplier for 100$ each, I hope every thing works as expected. Here you can take a look before I get my hands on this new puppy! I will share the results when I made progress.
Congratulations, but what does it have to do with the subject of this thread?

Online ali_asadzadeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1896
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2021, 08:56:46 pm »
Quote
Congratulations, but what does it have to do with the subject of this thread?
It can tell that you can buy FPGA's at about 4X to 20X lower in china, the prices in Digikey, mouser etc...  are for milking the early or small buyers that do not know the real prices, Just be aware that you can get them way more cheaper in china, I think in china some companies would buy in volume, so that the prices would drop a lot, and you can only find some particular parts with very low prices there, and every family has at least 2-3 members , from spartan to zynq, to vertix, to Kintex and artix, even ultra scales!
ASiDesigner, Stands for Application specific intelligent devices
I'm a Digital Expert from 8-bits to 64-bits
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2021, 09:14:04 pm »
It can tell that you can buy FPGA's at about 4X to 20X lower in china, the prices in Digikey, mouser etc...  are for milking the early or small buyers that do not know the real prices, Just be aware that you can get them way more cheaper in china, I think in china some companies would buy in volume, so that the prices would drop a lot, and you can only find some particular parts with very low prices there, and every family has at least 2-3 members , from spartan to zynq, to vertix, to Kintex and artix, even ultra scales!
I don't care because I'm not in China and don't want to be there.
That still has nothing to do with the subject of this thread, which is about new device family which obviously don't exist as production devices anywhere, including China.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 09:25:54 pm by asmi »
 
The following users thanked this post: Evan.Cornell, SiliconWizard

Offline NorthGuy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3136
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2021, 03:37:12 pm »
... which is about new device family which obviously don't exist as production devices anywhere, including China.

Absolutely. Spartan-7 was released 2 years ago and I haven't seen them sold in China yet. So, it is long long wait until you can buy Artix-U in China. I think it's at least a year until you can buy Artix-U anywhere.

I hope prices won't be too high, and if so, this may even pull prices for 7-series FPGA down because they're getting obsolete with DDR3 and PCIe2. That's my own version of wishful thinking :)
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2021, 03:51:21 pm »
Absolutely. Spartan-7 was released 2 years ago and I haven't seen them sold in China yet. So, it is long long wait until you can buy Artix-U in China. I think it's at least a year until you can buy Artix-U anywhere.
Yea that's what I think too. Which kind of sucks as I'm really looking forward to playing around with them.

I hope prices won't be too high, and if so, this may even pull prices for 7-series FPGA down because they're getting obsolete with DDR3 and PCIe2. That's my own version of wishful thinking :)
Historically prices for 7 series are undercutting S6 devices to encourage migration, so I think it will be the same with newer AU. The smallest AU has resources similar to the A100T, so I suspect it's going to be priced at the same level, which is US$100-150 on DK depending on a package and speed/temp grade. I doubt there will ever be 20$ AU devices which will compete with lower-end Artix, but I think we will eventually get smaller ones than AU10P - just like we got new A12T/A25T die some years since original introduction.

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14230
  • Country: fr
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2021, 09:43:00 pm »
As I noted a good while ago already, the 7 series is still very under-represented on the market as far as dev boards go, and yes, availability in China as well. And still a ton of Spartan-6 stuff out there...
So I'm not holding my breath regarding the newer Xilinx parts...
 

Offline asmiTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2728
  • Country: ca
Re: Cheaper Zynq Ultrascale+ and new Artix Ultrascale+ devices announced!
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2021, 09:47:32 pm »
As I noted a good while ago already, the 7 series is still very under-represented on the market as far as dev boards go
What kind of devboard for 7 series would you like to have, which doesn't exist yet? I'm really curious.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 09:49:45 pm by asmi »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf