Copy of 18CV8 - question

[yabba235]

Hi !
I copy AMI 18CV8P chip with Labtool 48UXP - save jedec file and for verification save to new tree chip AMI. But is not working !
Is posibillity these chips is fake ?
I attach photo:
first original chip:
second new chips:

[up8051]

Układ może być zabezpieczony przed odczytem.
Zostanie utworzony plik JEDEC ale nie będzie zawierał rzeczywistej mapy  FuseBits.

The chip can be read-protected.
A JEDEC file will be created but will not contain the actual FuseBits map.

[yabba235]

Well, I don't know - after all, if it is secured, it either shows only zeros or something different every time, and I had the same fusebits every time. If it is secured, it would have to have a "false" read-only map activated when reading is attempted - I didn't read anything about it in the application note, but it says:
"..The PEEL18CV8 provides a special EEPROM security bit that prevents unauthorized reading or copying of designsprogrammed into the device. The security bit is set by the PLD programmer, either at the conclusion of the program-ming cycle or as a separate step, after the device has beenprogrammed. Once the security bit is set it is impossible to verify (read) or program the PEEL until the entire device has first been erased with the bulk-erase function.."
So if I can read it, it is not secured.

[up8051]

Układ może być odczytywany zawsze, niezależnie od stanu security bit.
Przy ustawionym Security Bit w odczytanym pliku mapa FuseBit będzie pokazywać same 0 z wyjątkiem
FuseBits odpowiedzialnych za User ID które nie jest protegowane.

Jak podglądniesz zawartość pliku JEDEC to od razu zauważysz czy jest protekcja czy nie.

The chip can always be read, regardless of the security bit status.
With the Security Bit set in the read file, the FuseBit map will show only 0 except
FuseBits responsible for User ID which is not secured.

When you preview the content of the JEDEC file, you will immediately notice whether there is protection or not.

[yabba235]

Is this what a map from a secured system looks like?:

 Generated by LabTool-48XP/UXP on Tue May 21 07:24:09 2024
*
QF2696*
L000000 011101111111011111110111111111111111*
L000036 011101111111101110110111111111111111*
L000072 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000108 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000144 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000180 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000216 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000252 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000288 111111111111111111111111110111111111*
L000324 111110111011011101111011111111111111*
L000360 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000396 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000432 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000468 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000504 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000540 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000576 111111111111111111111111111111011111*
L000612 111110111011011110111011111111111111*
L000648 000000000000000000000000000000000000*
L000684 000000000000000000000000000000000000*

Of course, this is only a fragment.

[up8051]

Wygląda na nie zabezpieczony.
Układy ze zdjęcia mają datę produkcji 38 tydzień 91, w tym okresie raczej nie stosowan0 laserowego znakowania
więc mogą to być inne układy. Np. PEEL18CV8ZP który ma inną  mapę FuseBits od PEEL18CV8

It looks unsecured.
The chips in the photo have a production date of 38 weeks 91, laser marking was not used during this period
so it may be other remarked . E.g. PEEL18CV8Z which has a different FuseBits map from PEEL18CV8

[yabba235]

That's what I was afraid of - fakes!
Thanks for the explanation about security and marking of chips.

[up8051]

Gdzie kupowałeś te układy.
Na allegro są dostępne od TV-SAT który jest zaufanym sprzedawcą.

Where did you buy these chips?
They are available on Allegro from TV-SAT, which is a trusted seller.

[yabba235]

Exactly from him:

[up8051]

Kupiłem od nich wiele różnych układów scalonych  i nigdy nie trafiłem na podróbki.

I have purchased many different ICs from them and have never come across a fake.

[yabba235]

There's always a first time

[up8051]

Mam na stanie kilkaset PEEL18CV8ZP ale maja inny układ bitmapy.
Trzeba by zdekodować odczytany JEDEC do równań logicznych i skompilować ponownie.
Pełna mapa FuseBits dla 18CV8 jest dostępna.
Ewentualnie na Allegro lokalnie ktoś sprzedaje układy ICT PEEL18CV8 (AMI zostało wykupione prze ICT).

I have several hundred PEEL18CV8ZP in stock, but they have a different bitmap layout.
You would have to decode the read JEDEC into logical equations and recompile.
The full FuseBits map for the 18CV8 is available.
Alternatively, someone locally sells ICT PEEL18CV8 chips on Allegro (AMI was bought by ICT).

Check value of FuseBits L2192,L2913  "01" or "11" or"10"

[yabba235]

You meant L2192, L2193 ?
It's  "00".

I can't decompile it down to logic - the datasheet for this peel does not contain all the addresses, so I don't know how the macrotargets are configured because in this datasheet there are no addresses given for the configuration bits - unlike, for example, a datasheet with PAL/GAL - the addresses are given there and based on this you can read the full system configuration from the file. This is impossible with PEEL.

[up8051]

Here is all needed data.

[yabba235]

Thank's, can it be used with 18cv8 version?

[yabba235]

Unfortunately, I need a description of the fuses for the 18CV8 version - 16CV8 does not have these. which are additional in version 18.
But thank you for your good intentions.

[up8051]

Sorry my mistake. Proper file:

[up8051]

One more info.
Conversion from PEEL18CV8 to PEEL18CV8ZP without decompiling can be done in "ICT PLACE" software.

[yabba235]

Unfortunately, I can't do anything about regenerating the logic from the jedec file - I have both Winplace 1.5 and 2.0 programs and both of them work under Win7 (vmware) on my Windows 11 razor, but the compilation doesn't work - it says I don't have enough memory. So there's nothing I can do. There are some programs that decode the jedec file into logical equations, but they only work for PAL/GAL chips, not for PEEL.

[bingo600]

it says I don't have enough memory. So there's nothing I can do.

If program was designed to run on an "Old windows" , then : Not enough memory
Can actually be too much memory (The free memory register could overflow of ie. 16 or 32 bit)

[yabba235]

it says I don't have enough memory. So there's nothing I can do.

If program was designed to run on an "Old windows" , then : Not enough memory
Can actually be too much memory (The free memory register could overflow of ie. 16 or 32 bit)

I reduce memory size to 2GB - no help !

[wraper]

I have both Winplace 1.5 and 2.0 programs and both of them work under Win7 (vmware) on my Windows 11 razor, but the compilation doesn't work - it says I don't have enough memory. So there's nothing I can do

Why not run win 95/98 on vmware? Maybe first try setting win 95/98 capability mode in win 7, run as administrator.

[yabba235]

I have both Winplace 1.5 and 2.0 programs and both of them work under Win7 (vmware) on my Windows 11 razor, but the compilation doesn't work - it says I don't have enough memory. So there's nothing I can do

Why not run win 95/98 on vmware? Maybe first try setting win 95/98 capability mode in win 7, run as administrator.

No, it's not work. and my old virtual xp too - can't run winplace installer. So i need 20 years old computer for that. Sad...

[up8051]

Wyślij mi odczytany plik JED, to spróbuję go zdekodować.

Send me the read JED file and I will try to decode it.

[yabba235]

I sincerely recommend the help of a colleague  up8051 - he helped me with this file professionally.