Efinix Trion FPGA's

[woofy]

I hadn't noticed that, it's a sensible move on their part.
Hopefully it will encourage 3rd party modules.

[AndyC_772]

Good to know. I can see these guys getting a lot of design wins, given that both Altera and Xilinx still seem to be vapourware.

[nctnico]

Good to know. I can see these guys getting a lot of design wins, given that both Altera and Xilinx still seem to be vapourware.

That depends on how quickly they can get real parts out of the door. Also there is zero information about pricing. Not a good sign either. I loath using Xilinx due to their random pricing strategy. I could use some high speed Serdes interfaces for a design but none of the Efinix parts seem to actually have those.

[AndyC_772]

They're ex-stock at Digi-key, and also available from their designated distributor TRS-Star in Germany.

[asmi]

Good to know. I can see these guys getting a lot of design wins, given that both Altera and Xilinx still seem to be vapourware.

I don't know about Altera, but there are quite a number of Xilinx 7 series devices in stock at Digikey and Mouser. They even have some of their latest Artix Ultrascale+ devices. The only problem is price...

[SiliconWizard]

Yeah, Lattice parts are also back in stock but also at a +30% to +50% price increase compared to before the shortage.

[nctnico]

They're ex-stock at Digi-key, and also available from their designated distributor TRS-Star in Germany.

You are right. My mind was stuck at the devices with the high speed Serdes interfaces.

Good to know. I can see these guys getting a lot of design wins, given that both Altera and Xilinx still seem to be vapourware.

I don't know about Altera, but there are quite a number of Xilinx 7 series devices in stock at Digikey and Mouser. They even have some of their latest Artix Ultrascale+ devices. The only problem is price...

For me the problem is that I need Xilinx 6 series devices for existing designs... 
If I need to design in a different FPGA, it won't be coming from Xilinx.

[SiliconWizard]

For me the problem is that I need Xilinx 6 series devices for existing designs... 
If I need to design in a different FPGA, it won't be coming from Xilinx.

Yes, the 6 series is currently unobtainium, it's now even worse than it ever was, it looks like Xilinx has decided to stop producing any, or something.

[asmi]

Yes, the 6 series is currently unobtainium, it's now even worse than it ever was, it looks like Xilinx has decided to stop producing any, or something.

There are some in stock at LCSC, so if one really need them, he can get them. But I'm super-happy that at least 7 series are back in stock!

[SiliconWizard]

Yes, the 6 series is currently unobtainium, it's now even worse than it ever was, it looks like Xilinx has decided to stop producing any, or something.

There are some in stock at LCSC, so if one really need them, he can get them. But I'm super-happy that at least 7 series are back in stock!

Ah true, octopart doesn't show any LCSC stock that I saw, but LCSC has... some. https://www.lcsc.com/products/Programmable-Logic-Device-CPLDs-FPGAs_11330.html?keyword=xc6slx
Very limited. But if you happen to need a handful of one of the listed ones. Hurry.

[glenenglish]

I have bought a full tray of TI60 parts, and I have the Ti180dev kit. Yes- the SERDES are coming....
What the parts shortage of Xilinx has done-  ,( and the Titanium  Efinix parts availability) ... is that now I wont go back to 7 series parts. I'll continue to use the Ultrascale Xilinx parts for my big designs, but all tasks that can be done from 7 series, are now going over to , and new designs are Efinix Titanium.   So, XIlinx has let others eat their lunch with all the supply issues. It's an enormous pain for me to transition, but the power consumption and speed of these Titanium parts is far ahead of the others.  You do want to have plenty of logic in hand. I'm using a Ti60 for a XC7S25 job.
Yes on the headline, for the money  the xilinx has half the logic cells- but the Efinix logic cells are simple, so you (often) need more of them. And more interestingly the pricing is similar- so Efinix knows the size comparisions.... they're not dumb !
Actually the static of the Xilinx 7 series and Efinix seems about the same,  (7 series 28nm process is fairly low leakage)
  but the Efinix parts use less power when they're switching. (16nm) .  I'm transitioning to writing HLS code for the Efinix fabric since I dont have the huge Xilinx logicCore library to work with. That's the thing,  the XIlinx is good value for money when you consider the huge IP available and the excellent documentation. But Xilinx - you forced me to buy Efinix because you could not supply....

[nctnico]

For me the problem is that I need Xilinx 6 series devices for existing designs... 
If I need to design in a different FPGA, it won't be coming from Xilinx.

Yes, the 6 series is currently unobtainium, it's now even worse than it ever was, it looks like Xilinx has decided to stop producing any, or something.

Could be but it seriously messes up availability of a high-tech product that is unique in the entire world and wanted by many research laboratories.

[glenenglish]

But anything designed with 6 series is almost from  from the last century.....I am surprised that it is still relevant.

[AK6DN]

For me the problem is that I need Xilinx 6 series devices for existing designs... 
If I need to design in a different FPGA, it won't be coming from Xilinx.

Yes, the 6 series is currently unobtainium, it's now even worse than it ever was, it looks like Xilinx has decided to stop producing any, or something.

With Xilinx/AMD and Altera/Intel, it is not q question of production, but of allocation.
They are producing the same number, or more of parts as before.
But those customers that deal direct with guaranteed delivery, precommitted purchase contracts are consuming all the parts.
Distributors get what is left, which over the last year or so has been nothing.

I used to work for a large telecom manufacturer which had a purchasing department which dealt direct with Altera, Xilinx, etc.
When we wanted to use a new (or existing) part it had to get their procurement blessing, and then they guaranteed us supply for the next five to seven years.

So everybody who believes that Altera, Xilinx, et al have 'stopped' making parts over the last couple of years are misinformed.
It is just that all the big multinational manufacturers have soaked up all the production capacity, leaving little to none for the small design houses.

[nctnico]

The problem is that the assemblers that buy directly from Xilinx can't get the parts either. The 'product' I mentioned earlier is a known project to Xilinx and even gets a discount from Xilinx due to volume. There is a huge party behind the development of it, nevertheless Xilinx won't deliver parts. IOW: I'm more inclined to believe that Covid caused a hickup in production somewhere (doesn't even have to be wafer fabrication) and there is a lot of catching up to do. But that doesn't help customers that need parts right now.

[nctnico]

Anyway, these Efinix devices look promising. It looks like the Fireant board is not available at the moment. Are there any other cheap Efinix Trion / Titan development boards? I'm planning on doing some initial research work for a new project and it would be nice to compare Efinix and Gowin head to head. I already have the Gowin boards.

[glenenglish]

Gowin ? !  ROFL. that's not even a fair comparison. That's like low end lattice comparison.
If you cant spend USD100 on an eval board then you've have probably chosen the wrong technology for your project.
Honestly-  sounds like Gowin or Lattice is a good choice for what you are doing- $1 chips.
EFINIX is NOT a low end  FPGA.

Try Lattice MACH X02, they're quite nifty.

Efinix : Suggest just buy eval board.. there are many of them  starting at USD75. digikey have 750 in stock...

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/evaluation-boards-embedded-complex-logic-fpga-cpld/796?s=N4IgTCBcDaIKYDMCWA7JAPABHAbgQwBsBXPAFyQHsUQBdAXyA

the big board for the Ti180, that comes with a swag of plug in modules, cameras etc is only USD850. That board is cheap for  what is included.

I suggest NOT the lowest  grade board, buy a eval board that has room to do soemthing useful like the
T20F256C-DK  USD$150
, or the smallest Titanium Ti60 board at USD$360.

[SiliconWizard]

The MachXO2 is interesting for some applications but certainly not a match for a Spartan-6 if you really need the power the latter offers.

The ECP5 is already closer to a Spartan-6. I've replaced Spartan-6's with ECP5's in a couple projects. All depends on your exact requirements though.
It's more or less available now but at non-normal prices. Better than nothing.

[nctnico]

Gowin ? !  ROFL. that's not even a fair comparison. That's like low end lattice comparison.
If you cant spend USD100 on an eval board then you've have probably chosen the wrong technology for your project.

It is not about the money perse but I'd like to spend it wisely. I just cleared out a whole bunch of very lightly (or not at all) used eval boards for various projects.

First of all: the particular project I have in mind doesn't need a very large FPGA. Secondly, I typically don't use an eval board to a large extend so their value for money is very limited for me. Just to twiddle some pins and feed in some signals. Once that works I move on to a prototype PCB quickly to have better control over signal integrity and have all the relevant peripherals on 1 board. So I'll probably be using the eval board for a day to do some measurements and be done with it. I did look at the TI60 225 eval kit (the $360 one) but there is a lot in the box that can go straight into the 'unused parts give-away box'. I simply don't need most of the stuff.

The MachXO2 is interesting for some applications but certainly not a match for a Spartan-6 if you really need the power the latter offers.

The ECP5 is already closer to a Spartan-6. I've replaced Spartan-6's with ECP5's in a couple projects. All depends on your exact requirements though.
It's more or less available now but at non-normal prices. Better than nothing.

Lattice is out. Licensing scheme seems to be time limited / subscription only. That doesn't work for the projects I work on. I need to be able to support a project for at least 10 years.

The only reason I need the Spartan 6 is for the high speed interfaces (LXT devices) and none the the FPGAs with such interfaces seem to be available anywhere. I might have come up with an alternative solution for those interfaces which also drastically reduces the requirements for the FPGA part.

In another design I'm using a Virtex 6 series just for having a whole bunch of high speed interfaces but the FPGA is actually so much oversized that timing can not be met when all the logic is compacted at the middle of the chip. The signals literally take too long to travel over the FPGA fabric.

[glenenglish]

I'm surprised about your interface need. What is so special that it cant be 7 series  implemented ?

I think you are making an error tieing yourself to 20 year old FPGA technology.
Maybe the readers here can offer some alternatives to your special interface needs.


I guess if you are a hobbyist and not a commercial developer, then price for tools is important.
6 series Spartan sucked. high utilization was hamstrung.

Efinix parts are certainly not cheap, but they are fast, and available.

[glenenglish]

If you are using  the XC6SLX25T size device, how come you can't use the Artix7  in same size- and they are available, and at better prices  than the 6 series. and they have all the transceiver hardware, more of everything......

Efinix- Tray of Ti60 in  a 225  (0.65mm) package here, if anyone needs a few. They are 0.65mm will be a bit of a pain for routing but easier than a  0.5mm QFN for stenciling.

[SiliconWizard]

I think you are making an error tieing yourself to 20 year old FPGA technology.

20 years? Not exactly.

Maybe the readers here can offer some alternatives to your special interface needs.

The ECP5 has 3.2Gbps transceivers just like the Spartan-6 LXT.
The ECP5-5G has 5Gbps transceivers.
And while the ECP5-5G requires a subscription license, the ECP5 doesn't. And should do OK here. Maybe it's just the fact Lattice delivers 1-year free licenses so you have to renew them every year? And he's afraid of Lattice disappering leaving everyone in the dark with no usable license? That's what many other FPGA vendors do these days anyway. But, in that case, yes. Good luck.

And apparently he doesn't want to deal with Xilinx anymore either, even if it's to use the 7 series.

So, good luck.

[nctnico]

Last time I checked the 7 series parts that have the high speed transceivers wheren't available either. Same for all the other big FPGA manufacturers. The message to take from that is that designing in FPGAs with high speed tranceivers puts you into a niche market that dries up as soon as something bad happens in the world. On top of that I can't ignore that some manufacturers are more prone to supply chain interruptions than others.

And no, this isn't a hobby project (this is a weird conclusion to jump to actually). Far from it. Which is why long term component & tool availability are important. But since designing in a new FPGA seems to be inevitable, it is a good time to weigh all options and possibly come up with a new architecture that is even cheaper to produce with parts that are more likely to be available at all times.

[glenenglish]

If you have a good relationship with the rep, you can get the Artix '35 parts. no problems. I can..... There are certain package and chip combinations that are easy to get.
I think if you were designing equipment with 6 series, you'd be doing the client no service.

But ! this is the Efinix forum, enough  !
The Transceivers will be along soon. But they're not going to be in low end parts...You'd be better with a 7A35T or the smallest Ultrascale+ AU10P  part available now. Wait a bit, the Efinix transceiver parts will be along...

glen.
Xilinx Alliance Partner.

[glenenglish]

Contact AVNET. you should be able to buy XC7A35T-1CSG325C or XC7A35T-1FT256I

-glen