Author Topic: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?  (Read 45668 times)

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Offline asmi

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #125 on: February 21, 2021, 11:11:36 pm »
As you can see, these boards have better specs but are more than 10 times more expensive. 
At least they are proper devboards, not repurposed crap with no interesting peripherals.
Oh, and you forgot Kintex-7 - even though K160T has slightly less LUTs than A200T, it's fabric is significantly faster, and so are it's transceivers - they can go to 10G even in speed grade 2, and 12.5G for SG3.
My favorite devboard is Genesys 2 - it's got Kintex-325T device with SG2, it includes a permanent license to Vivado for that device, so programming is not a problem, and this license is only tied to device density (325T), meaning you can build your own boards with these devices in any package. And Kintex-7 can drive DDR3 memory at up to 933 MHz, so giving you all the bandwidth you will ever need. Though because of the way memory devices are wired on Genesys 2 board, you can only go up to 900 MHz, but it's still an insane 900 * 2 * 32 = 57600 Mbps.

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #126 on: March 04, 2021, 03:40:43 am »
Hey everyone,

I wrote a minimal hardware configuration that blinks all the accessible LEDs and outputs square waves of different frequencies on all 12 of the GPIO outputs on the DF52 board.  This might be useful for people to test whether or not their board works after they get it.  The vivado project can be built by cloning my github repository (found here https://github.com/SMB784/SQRL) and using the TCL script build_SQRL.tcl.  The github repository also includes instructions on how to program this board using a generic FT232H to USB adapter rather than the usual special Xilinx cable, as well as automatic scripts for uploading the post-implementation SQRL_top.bit & SQRL_top.bin files for programming the FPGA and the flash.

In order to get 3.3V output on DF52 pins 15, 16, 18, and 19, you are required to remove the U11 regulator and short the input and output pins on the U11 pad together, as described earlier in this thread.  I have confirmed that this works, and does not negatively affect the board in any way that I have noticed.

I have attached images of the waveform output from pin 3 (3.3V GPIO pin at 12.5 MHz output) and pin 19 (2.5V LVDS pin modified to 3.3V GPIO at 6.1 kHz output ) to this post.

If you need to put together a DF52 cable, I highly recommend getting the specific DF52 cables with the pre-crimped ends (found here on Mouser) that fit into the DF52 housing (found here).  Cutting the cables in half will allow you to make 2 DF52-to-whatever-you-want cables (in my case, IDC20 connectors).

Hopefully this helps someone else make good use of this board  :)

On a whim I bought a CLE-215+ with the best specced part with the Arty7 200T speed grade 3. I tested my basic load-out configuration, and confirmed that it works without modification, producing the correct outputs etc.

So if you end up with either the CLE-215 or the CLE-215+ this should work for verification of functionality.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 03:59:42 am by SMB784 »
 

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #127 on: September 08, 2021, 05:17:01 am »
Does anyone know what DDR3 part is on the Acorn CLE-215+? I'm a little nervous about trying to take the heatsink off at this point in time.

I'd like to try and kick it up to the 1066 Mbps claimed for NiteFury, or even possibly 1333 Mbps if the part specified by LiteX (MT41K512M16) is actually what's in there. (That is, assuming https://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/61572.html is valid for -3 grade Artix-7 parts)
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #128 on: September 08, 2021, 12:50:30 pm »
Does anyone know what DDR3 part is on the Acorn CLE-215+? I'm a little nervous about trying to take the heatsink off at this point in time.

I'd like to try and kick it up to the 1066 Mbps claimed for NiteFury, or even possibly 1333 Mbps if the part specified by LiteX (MT41K512M16) is actually what's in there. (That is, assuming https://www.xilinx.com/support/answers/61572.html is valid for -3 grade Artix-7 parts)

According to Micron's FBGA number decoder, the memory part for the CLE-215+ (FBGA # D9STQ) is indeed the MT41K512M16

See attached photo for visual confirmation
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 12:59:33 pm by SMB784 »
 
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Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #129 on: September 08, 2021, 04:40:43 pm »
According to Micron's FBGA number decoder, the memory part for the CLE-215+ (FBGA # D9STQ) is indeed the MT41K512M16

See attached photo for visual confirmation

Thanks for the picture. Looks like the MT41K512M16HA-125:A is not a dual die part, and thus limited to 1066 Mbps (officially, anyhow).
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #130 on: September 08, 2021, 06:31:28 pm »
According to Micron's FBGA number decoder, the memory part for the CLE-215+ (FBGA # D9STQ) is indeed the MT41K512M16

See attached photo for visual confirmation

Thanks for the picture. Looks like the MT41K512M16HA-125:A is not a dual die part, and thus limited to 1066 Mbps (officially, anyhow).

The datasheet indicates that -125:A means 1600Mbps

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #131 on: September 13, 2021, 05:38:11 am »

The datasheet indicates that -125:A means 1600Mbps

Right, but the Artix-7 datasheet says the max frequency for DDR3 that it supports on the -3 speed grade for single die parts is 1066 Mbps / data line. Elsewhere it mentions up to 1250 Mbps / data line for LVDS, so I wonder if they are only reporting compatibility for JEDEC official speed steps.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2021, 05:45:12 am »

The datasheet indicates that -125:A means 1600Mbps

Right, but the Artix-7 datasheet says the max frequency for DDR3 that it supports on the -3 speed grade for single die parts is 1066 Mbps / data line. Elsewhere it mentions up to 1250 Mbps / data line for LVDS, so I wonder if they are only reporting compatibility for JEDEC official speed steps.
LVDS is differential.  It tends to achieve slightly better performance using pairs of IO pins to send 1 bit.
 

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #133 on: September 29, 2021, 03:38:21 am »
I know someone mentioned they were going to try HDMI/DVI output earlier in this thread, but I never saw a follow up. I managed to get 1080p60 out of a CLE-215+ IO connector with a little adapter board I made. It's a little beyond the official spec for differential signals (1485 MHz vs 1408 MHz), but it seems to work.

It's based on a PI3HDX511D DisplayPort to TMDS level shifter / redriver and a 3.3V to 5V boost converter to supply the +5V rail to the HDMI sink. As mentioned here before, the Acorn can't output TMDS directly because most of the IO pins are hooked up to 2.5V, but I wasn't keen on modifying the board. DisplayPort uses LVDS, which is supported at 2.5V with the LVDS_25 IOSTANDARD.

I threw the KiCad project up at https://github.com/teknoman117/ACORN-CLE-DVI

The assembly is a pain though. I shake a bit, so landing the 0.4mm pitch TQFN-30 more or less perfect on the pads after applying the solder paste is quite difficult. I'm 1.9 for 3 at this point, as one board is assembled perfectly, one has a broken DDC SCL line (shorted to ground under the QFN), and the third one appears to be completely dead. I think I'll try a larger QFN next time, there seem to be a few 0.5mm pitch ones that aren't completely out of stock.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2021, 06:26:14 am by Teknoman117 »
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #134 on: September 29, 2021, 12:53:04 pm »
What board are you using to adapt the M.2 to USB-C? Does it work for data or is it power only?
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Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #135 on: September 29, 2021, 05:03:10 pm »
I took the board out of a Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 to M.2 enclosure (Amazon Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FT59SB6). It was $70 USD when I got it two months ago. Unfortunately it's only a JHL6240 controller, so there are only 2 lanes of PCIe. Since the price went up to $90 USD, it's only a short bit away from 4 lane controllers.

On the host side, I did the "short pins 3 & 5" mod to a GC-Titan Ridge 2.0 thunderbolt add-in card to get it to function in an AMD system. It doesn't work under Windows, but for Linux you can pass some magic kernel arguments to reserve PCIe BDFs so you can hot-plug PCIe bridges.
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #136 on: September 29, 2021, 11:37:58 pm »
I took the board out of a Sabrent Thunderbolt 3 to M.2 enclosure (Amazon Link: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08FT59SB6). It was $70 USD when I got it two months ago. Unfortunately it's only a JHL6240 controller, so there are only 2 lanes of PCIe. Since the price went up to $90 USD, it's only a short bit away from 4 lane controllers.

On the host side, I did the "short pins 3 & 5" mod to a GC-Titan Ridge 2.0 thunderbolt add-in card to get it to function in an AMD system. It doesn't work under Windows, but for Linux you can pass some magic kernel arguments to reserve PCIe BDFs so you can hot-plug PCIe bridges.

Do you have a source for a 4 lane PCIe M.2 to USB C board with a similar form factor to the one you used?  I was looking at this one, but I cannot seem to find a place to buy it that is reputable (amazon, newegg, etc): https://www.delock.de/produkte/G_42001/merkmale.html

I found what I think may be a reasonably priced variant of this board that supports PCIe x4 on amazon.

I have ordered one, and I will try it out to see if it can at least power the unit.  It comes with a nice fan and a heatsink, so I can ditch the ridiculous ACORN heatsink.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 12:50:09 am by SMB784 »
 

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #137 on: September 30, 2021, 12:52:47 am »
I don't have a reliable source.

I'm on the fence about purchasing either this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085T57STT or this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7L6SDD. The speed exceeds the maximum throughput of 2 lanes @ 8 GT/s, so it has to be a 4 lane controller. Basically, you're looking for a JHL6340 or JHL7440 controller if the enclosure uses an Intel chipset. Googling or searching Amazon for that usually just results in external PCIe cages for full size cards.

In my experience, Amazon has pretty open about returns, so at worst you're left paying return shipping if one doesn't work.
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #138 on: September 30, 2021, 12:58:32 am »
I don't have a reliable source.

I'm on the fence about purchasing either this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B085T57STT or this one: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08P7L6SDD. The speed exceeds the maximum throughput of 2 lanes @ 8 GT/s, so it has to be a 4 lane controller. Basically, you're looking for a JHL6340 or JHL7440 controller if the enclosure uses an Intel chipset. Googling or searching Amazon for that usually just results in external PCIe cages for full size cards.

In my experience, Amazon has pretty open about returns, so at worst you're left paying return shipping if one doesn't work.

The one in my edited post uses an ASM2364 chipset.  That seems to be an x4 controller.  Does that strike you as something that would work?

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #139 on: September 30, 2021, 12:59:42 am »
Yeah, it certainly sounds like it should work.

However, the 20 Gbps bandwidth cap is going to limit you. 4 lanes of 8 GT/s would be ~31.8 Gbps of bandwidth.


Sorry for the edit,

This one won't work. It's a USB 3.2 to NVMe adapter, rather than a true thunderbolt adapter.

https://www.asmedia.com.tw/products-list/d8cyq6FXzaUH8XJa/BF2yq24XzDuS5Tr4
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 01:04:03 am by Teknoman117 »
 
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Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #140 on: September 30, 2021, 01:05:02 am »
Replying again because I retracted my comment from my previous reply.
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #141 on: September 30, 2021, 01:18:34 am »
Yeah, it certainly sounds like it should work.

However, the 20 Gbps bandwidth cap is going to limit you. 4 lanes of 8 GT/s would be ~31.8 Gbps of bandwidth.


Sorry for the edit,

This one won't work. It's a USB 3.2 to NVMe adapter, rather than a true thunderbolt adapter.

https://www.asmedia.com.tw/products-list/d8cyq6FXzaUH8XJa/BF2yq24XzDuS5Tr4

Ok, thats interesting.  Why won't it work, and what wont it work for?  Why is a true thunderbolt adapter needed, and for what is it needed?  Sorry I'm pretty new to the whole M.2 thing

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #142 on: September 30, 2021, 04:26:53 am »
I guess "it won't work" depends on what you're using it for.

A "true" thunderbolt adapter just serves as a bridge between the host system and the PCIe device. The device would show up like any other PCIe device to the host, use the same drivers, and function identically as it would if it were installed in the host machine.

Problem is, the majority of computers made do not have thunderbolt controllers. So, if you want to attach one of the high speed NVMe drives to any generic computer, you need to look like something most computers do have, and this is basically always USB. The enclosure you linked has a CPU or at the very least, some complex state machine and a PCIe root complex. It makes the PCIe connection with the NVMe disk, but it presents itself to the host computer as a USB Mass Storage device. The host has no idea what kind of physical storage is on the other side, just that it complies with the USB Mass Storage specification. You can't access anything specific about the device.

So, unless your goal is to turn the FPGA board into an NVMe device, you won't get much use out of a USB to PCIe enclosure. If you want to use Xilinx XDMA, LitePCIe, or something else, you'd need the thunderbolt to PCIe enclosure.
 
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Offline miken

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #143 on: September 30, 2021, 04:58:47 am »
Nice work Teknoman117, glad to see proof of concept.  :-+

I've been working on a board based on the PTN3381B. It's a bigger part but 0.5mm pitch and includes the 5V generator. I'll get around to finishing it up in the next few weeks... I got distracted by the idea of making a 3M 7700 cable for it, but attempted cable production was a disaster and now I think using the pre-crimped wires is the only realistic option.

https://github.com/mng2/AcornHDMI

I also put together a super basic PCIe example that I need to finish writing up. I have been using the Acorn with an old computer, rather than trying to plug it into any of my modern ones. A Thunderbolt enclosure would be neat though.
 
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Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board
« Reply #144 on: September 30, 2021, 06:21:21 am »
The integrated 5V converter is a nice feature as the boost converter and inductor are notable contributors to my BOM ($1.17 USD in unit-10 quantities). The precrimped cables are pretty hit or miss sadly. At 30cm, you have to be really careful how the cables are laid out. If the lanes get jumbled too much, the signal loses lock.

I’m thinking about attempting to find a source for that self-adhesive foil wrap that goes in shielded cables or at the very least install more of the ground conductors and try to bond them into a pseudo ribbon cable where the lanes are spaced by a ground wire.

As far as BOM goes, those precrimped wires hurt. Nearly $1 per wire. The cable costs more than the whole assembled adapter. $5 for the board ($50 for 10 units at JLCPCB w/ ENIG finish and the electro leveled stencil and shipping) and $7 for components. The cable is like $17 to make with all conductors populated.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 06:37:58 am by Teknoman117 »
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #145 on: September 30, 2021, 10:50:28 am »
I guess "it won't work" depends on what you're using it for...
That is a wonderful explanation, thank you! Now I understand what I need to buy. Much appreciated!

I ended up going with this one, as it is the cheapest option. It only fits the 2280 form factor, but that's the size of the unit anyway so no biggie there. We will see how well it works!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 01:05:37 pm by SMB784 »
 

Offline miken

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board
« Reply #146 on: September 30, 2021, 06:28:09 pm »
I’m thinking about attempting to find a source for that self-adhesive foil wrap that goes in shielded cables or at the very least install more of the ground conductors and try to bond them into a pseudo ribbon cable where the lanes are spaced by a ground wire.

Yeah, I was thinking to put the wires on kapton to make a ribbon, cut 'em down to 10cm and solder the wires directly to the board.

It's too bad RHS chose a connector system that's hard for hobbyists to work with, but understandable given the constraints of the compact form factor. I tried cutting and soldering the crimp terminals under a microscope, but in the end my results were too thick to fit in the housing. Perhaps I could get it to work if I were a bit more precise, but I'm not anxious to repeat the exercise. The pre-crimps are pricey but I'm not sure there's a great alternative unless one happens to have access to the official crimp tools.
 

Offline Teknoman117

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #147 on: September 30, 2021, 11:01:30 pm »
I actually ended up solving the signal issues. I completely forgot that you're supposed to twist the pairs of wires together.

No signal issues regardless of how I bend, fold, or loop the cable now. I can still get 1080p60 on the 30 cm precrimped wires with no visible artifacting as far as I can tell.
 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #148 on: October 01, 2021, 12:22:42 am »
Problem is, the majority of computers made do not have thunderbolt controllers. So, if you want to attach one of the high speed NVMe drives to any generic computer, you need to look like something most computers do have, and this is basically always USB. The enclosure you linked has a CPU or at the very least, some complex state machine and a PCIe root complex. It makes the PCIe connection with the NVMe disk, but it presents itself to the host computer as a USB Mass Storage device. The host has no idea what kind of physical storage is on the other side, just that it complies with the USB Mass Storage specification. You can't access anything specific about the device.
Those use UAS (USB attached SCSI) instead of the old mass storage protocol. Might it be possible to have the FPGA appear as a SCSI generic device through one of those adapters?
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Offline SMB784

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Re: SQRL Acorn as an interesting Artix-7 board?
« Reply #149 on: October 04, 2021, 08:42:53 pm »
I guess "it won't work" depends on what you're using it for...
That is a wonderful explanation, thank you! Now I understand what I need to buy. Much appreciated!

I ended up going with this one, as it is the cheapest option. It only fits the 2280 form factor, but that's the size of the unit anyway so no biggie there. We will see how well it works!

My thunderbolt enclosure came in today, and boy is it perfect for this board.  It fits the board snugly, it comes with a thermal pad to turn the aluminum case into a heatsink, and it has enough space above the USB port for a small cutout so that the DF52 connector can fit inside the cutout and provide access to the 2.5V LVDS (in my case, the board has been modified to output 3.3V on those pins).  The thunderbolt provides quite a lot of power for the unit, so it should be able to run complex, high resource FPGA designs without drawing too much current.  The case offers an elegant heatsink alternative to the ridiculous fan and humongous heatsink attached to the original board.

I have updated the github project for the basic loadout to include a link & some pictures (which I have attached below) of the board in its enclosure.  I will post my attempts at creating a cutout for the DF52 connector as soon as I finish that.  Made a small cutout just below the USB connector to feed the GPIO wires through, and successfully tested the basic loadout from the github with the SQRL in the enclosure (see photos).  To summarize, this is an excellent enclosure for this board.

With a little luck, and a good PCIe architecture, this will make a very nice plug-in FPGA project for all kinds of fun stuff.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2021, 01:25:18 am by SMB784 »
 


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