Author Topic: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium  (Read 3266 times)

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Offline gnuarm

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XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« on: September 22, 2022, 06:10:10 pm »
I am looking at respinning a board that uses an EOL Lattice part and using a Xilinx part instead.  XC7S15-1FTGB196C seems like a reasonable choice, but I can't get any read on pricing.  The XC7S6-1FTGB196C is $17 at Mouser and under $10 at LCSC. 

The XC7S15-1FTGB196C is $22 at Mouser, but $120 a LCSC.  Then the XC7S15-1FTGB196I is only $12 at qty 1000 at LCSC. 

I can't get a read on any of this.  I suppose this is the shortage at work.  I'll be using 1,000 a year.  Will I get any traction with Xilinx if I try to talk to them directly?
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2022, 07:22:36 pm »
You're lucky if you can get ahold of any FPGA that you actually need these days.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2022, 11:24:59 pm »
You're lucky if you can get ahold of any FPGA that you actually need these days.

Not really trying to get parts now.  I'm looking to figure out what parts I should use, based on price and availability down the road six or twelve months.  Does Xilinx at least provide samples these days?

One problem is I have no feel for how good the Xilinx 6-LUTs are compared to a 4-LUT.  The -6 chip has about 3600 of them (compared to the mythical 6000 Logic Cells).  My existing chip has 3000 4-LUTs and is around 90% full.  I need to shove two of these circuits into a new chip and I'm thinking I need the -15 Xilinx part with 8,000 6-LUTs should do the job fine.  I could even go with the -25 part with 14,600 6-LUTs if the price is not too bad. 

I like the FTGB196 package as it fits the board ok, although I may be making a double board.  Not sure how many more I/Os I would need for a twin board, but the 100 I/Os in the FTGB196 seems a bit tight.  Maybe not, we haven't looked at the   In that case, I might go with a 256 pin BGA with 1.0 mm pitch.  I don't see that for the Spartan 7.  I'd have to go chip hunting again. 
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Offline Someone

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2022, 11:54:50 pm »
Its an FPGA, you run a (the) build to see what the resource use is before committing to a part, be that size or speed grade or IO etc
 

Online nctnico

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 07:47:35 am »
I'd look elsewhere. Gowin for example. The  XC7S15-1FTGB196C doesn't look like a very high end device.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 04:17:50 pm »
Like Someone advised, just download Vivado and try your design to see what it makes of it.

Other option is to look at Gowin, like SiliconWizard suggested, or look at Anlogic. They have the AL3 series that resembles the Altera Cyclone IV series.

The software for it is free, but needs a license key, which can be downloaded from a Sipeed website. When you need it I can provide the links, but have to look on my other computer for it :)

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2022, 05:21:56 pm »
Other option is to look at Gowin, like SiliconWizard suggested, or look at Anlogic. They have the AL3 series that resembles the Altera Cyclone IV series.

Yeah, that was nctnico actually.

Now while we don't know exactly what the OP's requirements are, they said the XC7S15 looked like a match, and from this: "My existing chip has 3000 4-LUTs and is around 90% full.", it would definitely be more than enough (unless the old design used some particular feature of the FPGA that would require a lot more LUTs on the XC7S15). The easiest would have been to just tell us what the FPGA they are currently using is, and what frequency the design runs at.

It's very possible they could even go for a lower-end FPGA than the XC7S15, such as in the iCE40 series or something. Since they mentioned a Lattice part (but which one was it), most of their deprecated parts are relatively low-end stuff from what I remember, so that should be no problem.

Not sure off the top of my head what is EOL at Lattice currently. I'd suspect either the MachXO (not 2 or 3), or old CPLD, or...? Or maybe XP2, is it EOL?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2022, 05:26:53 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline mon2

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2022, 06:20:01 pm »
GOWIN has drop in replacements for a mix of the Lattice (and other vendor's) devices:

https://alcom.nl/products/gowin-littlebee-and-aurora-families-as-lattice-semis-machxo2-en-xo3-alternatives

Don't forget to also review Efinix as a possible solution. Available through Digikey.
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2022, 06:32:50 pm »
Other option is to look at Gowin, like SiliconWizard suggested, or look at Anlogic. They have the AL3 series that resembles the Altera Cyclone IV series.

Yeah, that was nctnico actually.

Sorry, you are right, my bad :(

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2022, 02:07:55 am »
I'd look elsewhere. Gowin for example. The  XC7S15-1FTGB196C doesn't look like a very high end device.

Not sure why you say that.  It's high end enough.  The 7S6 with less than 4000 6LUTs would be marginal.  I have high confidence the 7S15 with 8,000 6LUTs would do everything I need and more. 

What is your point exactly?

I would like to consider Gowin, but they are Chinese and my customer sells a lot to the US government.  Gowin might not be the best choice.  At one point they were on a list of companies considered to be a bit too close to the Chinese military.  They got taken off the list, but they are still made in China where the Military can control businesses. 

What was that company?  Huawei?  Yeah, that one...
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2022, 02:15:09 am »
Like Someone advised, just download Vivado and try your design to see what it makes of it.

Other option is to look at Gowin, like SiliconWizard suggested, or look at Anlogic. They have the AL3 series that resembles the Altera Cyclone IV series.

The software for it is free, but needs a license key, which can be downloaded from a Sipeed website. When you need it I can provide the links, but have to look on my other computer for it :)

Both Gowin and Anlogic are Chinese I believe.  That's an automatic 3rd strike for companies selling networking equipment to the US government.

Why are people telling me to run the design through the tools?  I don't need to do that now.  I have a reasonable size estimate and I would not want to use the 7S6 part, even if it would fit.  It is not smart to squeeze a design into a part if you have any thought of reworking the design later.  This is an application where a couple of dollars won't matter, but being able to add to the design later could be a big advantage.  The 7S15 provides that extra space.

I'm just trying to find info on which parts are a reasonable price.  From what I'm seeing, the Xilinx parts may not be a good fit regardless of the number of LUTs.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2022, 03:46:14 am »
Other option is to look at Gowin, like SiliconWizard suggested, or look at Anlogic. They have the AL3 series that resembles the Altera Cyclone IV series.

Yeah, that was nctnico actually.

Now while we don't know exactly what the OP's requirements are, they said the XC7S15 looked like a match, and from this: "My existing chip has 3000 4-LUTs and is around 90% full.", it would definitely be more than enough (unless the old design used some particular feature of the FPGA that would require a lot more LUTs on the XC7S15). The easiest would have been to just tell us what the FPGA they are currently using is, and what frequency the design runs at.

It's very possible they could even go for a lower-end FPGA than the XC7S15, such as in the iCE40 series or something. Since they mentioned a Lattice part (but which one was it), most of their deprecated parts are relatively low-end stuff from what I remember, so that should be no problem.

Not sure off the top of my head what is EOL at Lattice currently. I'd suspect either the MachXO (not 2 or 3), or old CPLD, or...? Or maybe XP2, is it EOL?

The old chip is LFXP3C-3TN100C and LFXP3E-3TN100C.  Cost was down to $7 each at one point, before they went EOL maybe 8 years ago.  Arrow bought a bunch of stock allowing me to continue to produce them until an AKM factory burned down making their CODEC unavailable.  I managed to buy nearly 9,000 on the grey market for the present run.  Only got ripped off twice.  LOL

The design runs with 33 MHz and 12.288 MHz clocks. 

Knowing all that info, what is the price of XC7S15-1FTGB196C, given an annual purchase of 1,000 units? 

Just in case I can use the Gowin parts, I got a budgetary price on the GW1N-LV9LQ100 and GW1N-UV9LQ100 at qty 1,000.  That was before I was asked to consider a dual board which would need a larger package I expect.  I can fit a LQ144 on the larger dual board.  That would provide enough I/Os. 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2022, 04:15:06 am »
Oh OK, it's not even a XP2 then but a XP. (I didn't even knew about them.)
Given your requirements the only additional thing we may need to give you proper alternative(s) is: the number of IOs you need and what amount of embedded RAM (if any) your design uses.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2022, 06:52:39 am »
Oh OK, it's not even a XP2 then but a XP. (I didn't even knew about them.)
Given your requirements the only additional thing we may need to give you proper alternative(s) is: the number of IOs you need and what amount of embedded RAM (if any) your design uses.

You are truly an engineer.  I'm not asking anyone to find an alternative part for me.  I was asking about how to get a price on a part that I could have some confidence in. 

But that's ok.  I have not locked into any part.  In fact, I've got a new thought, that I'm going to post in a new thread, since it's a bit off this topic.  Thanks for the effort though.  If you want to make more suggestions, the original design used pretty much all 62 I/Os in the Lattice XP3 device in the QFP100 package.  Some of those go away, so I think we can make do with 100 I/Os, but 120 would make me more comfortable.  I also don't want to use a BGA with smaller than 1 mm ball pitch.  A QFP144 might work if the I/O count is high enough.  On the double board we'll have the room a pair of QFP100s were occupying plus a bit more as some level shifters are going away.
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Offline dawnclaude

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2022, 06:49:46 am »
What do you think about Efinix FPGAs? T8Q144I4 seems like a good match for your IO and LUT requirements with currently 22k stocked at Digikey at $8 a piece.

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/T8Q144I4/2134-T8Q144I4-ND/11591372

They are supposedly US based ( ? )
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2022, 08:57:51 am »
What do you think about Efinix FPGAs? T8Q144I4 seems like a good match for your IO and LUT requirements with currently 22k stocked at Digikey at $8 a piece.

In that package, you can get two cores, the T8 and the T20.  The T8 seems a bit small for my needs.  Current chip is 3k LUTs times two is 6k LUTs, plus room for growth is pushing on 7,400 LUTs.  Then there is the uncertainty of fit because the LUT/FF cells are used for routing!  I worked with Concurrent Logic devices which were that way.  They used a lot of cells for routing.


Quote
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/T8Q144I4/2134-T8Q144I4-ND/11591372

They are supposedly US based ( ? )

The T20Q144C3 looks a bit more interesting and is still only $5.50 @ 1k through LCSC.  These parts are stocked well at Digikey if not LCSC, but at much higher prices.

I seem to recall you have to buy a dev kit to test drive their software.
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Offline up8051

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2022, 10:21:39 am »
Unfortunately, the LCSC stopped stocking Gowin and Efinix chips and their prices were much better than DigiKey.

Maybe you need to do an e-mail action asking to bring these producers back into the offer.
I sent such an e-mail with a request to restore the Gowin and Efinix chips for sale by LCSC
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 11:25:17 am by up8051 »
 

Offline NorthGuy

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2022, 01:44:54 pm »
I was asking about how to get a price on a part that I could have some confidence in.

Not possible. Unless you get a time machine and go back in time.
 

Offline Gribo

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2022, 04:23:49 pm »
If the Xilinx part fits your requirement, I would have placed an order now, even with 50 weeks lead time. At 1K/year, you won't get special treatment, and if your order doesn't get pushed back, consider yourself lucky.
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Online nctnico

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2022, 04:47:48 pm »
If the Xilinx part fits your requirement, I would have placed an order now, even with 50 weeks lead time. At 1K/year, you won't get special treatment, and if your order doesn't get pushed back, consider yourself lucky.
That doesn't make any sense. You will need parts and some assurance you have those parts in time for your production run. Betting on Xilinx is a very bad idea IMHO.

I'm under the impression that only newer parts are available in small quantities. Remember Xilinx has been taken over by AMD and AMD does not really have a good track record keeping chips available. Especially for the lower end / low cost parts for low volume customers. Been there, done that. Currently there are so many companies jumping onto the FPGA bandwagon (enabled by the free / Opensource Yosys software). For some projects I'm designing Xilinx out and I'm not going to use Xilinx FPGAs for any new projects if possible. Some of my customers are considering discontinueing products that use Xilinx FPGAs that have unspecified lead times (technically the products are already discontinued because they can not be made). New products -without Xilinx products- will be ready sooner. Xilinx has been good to me for several decades but I guess it is time to say goodbye.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2022, 04:50:30 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2022, 06:25:06 pm »
If Xilinx is out, who exactly, is in? 

I don't know if I want to fight the battle to use Gowin.  It doesn't help that they were on a US list of Communist Chinese Military Companies at one time.  My customer sells to the government a lot. 

Efinix might be a choice, but they have a goofy routing using logic functions, which clearly means you need more LUTs than any other logic family.  I can't test drive their tools without buying an eval board, so no test designs for now. 

Anlogic website is all Chinese.  Even if Google will translate that for me, I'm not sure I can use a product that can't decide if it is an eagle or a falcon.  It would also help if I could download a data sheet, or maybe not. 
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Online nctnico

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2022, 06:39:09 pm »
There is Cologne Chip from Germany:
https://www.colognechip.com/programmable-logic/gatemate/
This company has been around for several decades. Digikey has their CCGM1A1 device in stock.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2022, 06:51:46 pm »
There is Cologne Chip from Germany:
https://www.colognechip.com/programmable-logic/gatemate/
This company has been around for several decades. Digikey has their CCGM1A1 device in stock.

I looked at them before.  I don't remember what the issue is, but they were DoA for some reason.   A quick looks shows a single part, in a single package (rather large, 324BGA) at a high price.  They have some sort of a LUT tree that I'm pretty sure I was not impressed with. 

Has anyone here used them?  It doesn't strike me as a part to use when concerned about supply.
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Offline EverydayMuffin

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2022, 09:01:31 pm »
What about Microchip IGLOO2?

M2GL010-TQG144 is 12,000 Logic Elements.

1680pcs in stock with Microchip.

https://www.microchipdirect.com/product/M2GL010-TQG144?productLoaded=true
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: XC7S15-1FTGB196C Unobtainium
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2022, 09:24:15 pm »
What about Microchip IGLOO2?

M2GL010-TQG144 is 12,000 Logic Elements.

1680pcs in stock with Microchip.

https://www.microchipdirect.com/product/M2GL010-TQG144?productLoaded=true

I've never been a fan, without any particular reason I can recall.  I do know that the previous design didn't have room for larger parts (21 mm wide), so that excludes a lot of FPGAs without going to finer pitch BGAs. 

I don't recall the details on the IGLOO2 parts, but there's often an issue with the equivalence of LUTs. Also, this part is a bit pricier, $15 @ 1k qty. 

Maybe I need to take a fresh look at their parts. 

Wow!  They can ship 1,600 now, but... "Additional quantities estimated to ship by 16-Apr-2024"  They know how to put the "time" in lead-time!
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