Author Topic: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)  (Read 4279 times)

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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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(expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« on: May 08, 2023, 10:07:52 pm »


it's here  :o :o :o
« Last Edit: May 09, 2023, 09:46:59 am by DiTBho »
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2023, 08:26:52 am »
Advertized as "MNT Pocket Reform
A newer, smaller, lighter, more-affordable, seven-inch mini Reform laptop that remains fully open source
A Perfectly Sized, Versatile, On-the-Go Platform

Often on the go? Whether you need to take notes at work or in the classroom, write your novel in a cafe, or journal on the bus, Pocket Reform’s super compact, ortholinear mechanical keyboard has you covered. It’s quite inconvenient to use a full-sized laptop while commuting on a crowded bus or train, yet getting work done on a phone can be nigh impossible. Pocket Reform is a handy in-between device for using your time in transit efficiently without taking up too much space or drawing too much attention.
"

Found on Reddit, full of rumors and comments.
At some point, I will need something to replace my old (2005) Japanese PDA, which is still locked to the Linux Kernel 2.6.24  :o :o :o
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Offline djsb

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2023, 09:52:13 am »
Is your old PDA a Zaurus? I have an SL-C3100 that I turn on now and then. I'm also keeping an eye on the Pocket-reform.
David
Hertfordshire,UK
University Electronics Technician, London PIC,CCS C,Arduino,Kicad, Altium Designer,LPKF S103,S62 Operator, Electronics instructor. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. Credited Kicad French to English translator.
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2023, 12:51:10 pm »
Is your old PDA a Zaurus? I have an SL-C3100 that I turn on now and then

C1000, running Linux k2.6.24 and custom arm5-rootfs.
It's daily used with a usb-to-lan and serial adapter.

One year ago I made a Newton-like PDA, with a custom usb-defio 5" LCD, and a Allwinner Arm mobo.
Well, it's ... "usable", but you need to plug in an external keyboard.

Not a shell design but rather a monoblock design :o :o :o
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2023, 09:11:55 pm »
But does it run ChatGPT?
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2023, 10:40:52 pm »
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2023, 11:03:13 pm »
sdcc, gcc, lcc and gnat are there, anyway  8)
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Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2023, 11:17:00 pm »
I'd potentially be interested if it was $150, but $1k-$1500 is insane, a Macbook Air is cheaper than that and a lot less clunky looking although granted not quite as small. There are also some 10" laptops that are pretty small.
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2023, 11:30:54 pm »
I'd potentially be interested if it was $150

my USB-defio 5" LCD cost 180 euros for 2 prototypes.
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Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2023, 11:42:27 pm »
my USB-defio 5" LCD cost 180 euros for 2 prototypes.

I don't know what that is but it's expected that a prototype would cost more. Certainly you can get high quality 5-7" displays fairly cheaply, they're made in huge quantities for smartphones. Take a smartphone, add a custom OS, keyboard and IO and build it into a laptop form factor and you have pretty much what this is. Personally I'll just buy a laptop that's a tad larger so I can actually type comfortably on it.
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2023, 12:18:28 am »
made in huge quantities

probably it's the same for the mnt pocket-reform vs apple book air:
mnt pocket-reform, made in small quantities -> not optimal ratio features/money
apple book air, made in huge quantities -> better ratio features/money (plus, macos is a bonus)

mnt pocket-reform: fully open hardware and fully open source
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2023, 12:55:09 am »
But does it run ChatGPT?

what?  :o :o :o

It shall be the new "but does it run Doom?" meme. :-DD
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2023, 01:35:33 am »
probably it's the same for the mnt pocket-reform vs apple book air:
mnt pocket-reform, made in small quantities -> not optimal ratio features/money
apple book air, made in huge quantities -> better ratio features/money (plus, macos is a bonus)

mnt pocket-reform: fully open hardware and fully open source

Sure, but what does it do that a $500 or less netbook doesn't? The Macbook was largely for contrast, being a high end machine with a reputation for high price, this does't look high end at all, it looks like a cheap Chinese gadget. The fact that it's fully open source is an interesting novelty but so what? How many people are going to modify the design and build one themselves and to what end? I just don't see much advantage over a commercial offering. To me open source hardware is interesting because either A) It's cheaper than any comparable COTS product that offers similar funtionalty, or B) It does something unique or offers a unique feature set or flexibility that I actually want that I can't just go buy. This thing is a kit car that costs more than a real sports car.
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2023, 05:50:21 am »
Thr trouble with these sort of devices is that they aren't x86. That means that the vast majority of pre-compiled linux or windows software simply cannot run on them, yes a lot of linux software might technically have source code available to compile for thisalternative platform, but not easily or pleasantly. I whole heartedly approve of creating open hardware systems, but when such projects want to be of practical use for everyday computing (with the exception ofcourse of embedded use where you're putting cutom software on it to do some semi-realtime task, and not interacting with it like you do with a PC) the first thing they need to address is compatibility to make themselvesas useful as possible. Someone needs to develop an open source open hardware setup for x86 that can run a normal Linux distro, just as you would on a full size mass manufactured laptop or desktop.

I'll definitely say the small form factor makes this in some ways more a competitor to tablets/smartphones than to laptops, but still, compatibility for x86 is what is really needed. People want computer systems to run the same software packages they are already using.
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2023, 05:56:26 am »
Sure, but what does it do that a $500 or less netbook doesn't?

which netbooks? x86?

sure, mass made for the mass, which was fine in the late 80s and early 90s because other platforms (e.g. HP 715, SGI Indigo, ... (and I am not quoting BIG irons but rather ... the cheapest, which were 2x expensive than a PC)) were too expensive, and Intel, AMD, IBM, and Microsoft made a lot of money on IBM desktop PCs and IBM PC-laptop, but x86 && PC_BIOS MUST die because they are the crappiest things on the planet nowadays in 2023.

If we keep buying those things just because they're cheaper... we'll never get rid of them  :o :o :o

The Macbook
  • Apple M1 Airbook
    Linux on Apple M1 is technically a hack, done by reverse engineering, Apple does not offer anything: no documentation, no help, and legally they may get up tomorrow and put something in the firmware that only accepts signed OSes (like Sony did with Linux on their PlayStation3, PPC64/Cell), which means bye-bye Linux, only MacOS is welcome.

    I invested 2K euros in an M1 Airbook mostly for Finalcat, so it's a dedicated machine that I wouldn't for sure want to hack (especially at the hw level), if anything, I also appreciate it because the batteries last 20 hours and this is the second reason why I bought it.
  • Sharp C1K, C3K
    Linux on my Zaurus is a different story... it's full of mods, and SHARP offered some support, documentation, schematics (under reservation agreement), and patches for kernel 2.4. At the time it made a huge difference and it's the reason why I invested 400 euros in my C1K rather than in a PSION 5 (which has a better keyboard, anyway). I've done everything with it and I carry it around everywhere, from plane trips to bicycle trips where it works as a device that logs the GPS coordinates of the routes I take.

    The problem here is: Vanilla kernels need tons of patches, no modern kernels really work decently for a PDA. Too many primary features like battery management and sleep are missing. So, you are doomed with an old 2.6.24 kernel, which means you cannot run modern rootfs, unless you modify glibc & C which need modern features. It could technically be done, and probably I will.
  • my Newtown-like PDA
    I designed my Newtown-like PDA to be the next-gen because I don't like the new "Walker" Japanese line of pocket computers. I don't even like the Gemini toy because it's a stone designed to work only with Android (besides the fact that it costs too much, and it's more a smartphone than a pocket computer).

    I made it around an Allwinner SoC, which is not too bad. Sure, it has thermal problems, and sure the firmware has tons of bugs, but I fixed most of them, and GNU/Linux runs decently enough on a piece of hardware that is very cheap (~60 euros for the ARM Mobo is not too much).

    Unfortunately, I'm not good at PDA modeling and suck at Solidworks. And the "deferred mode" of the LCD I designed doesn't work as it should driver side of the kernel. It's only fine with fb-term (graphical vt220 terminal on direct fb) because it doesn't generate too much traffic on USB callbacks, but it starts to suck as soon as you want to run x11 applications. I don't know if this project will have a future, in the meantime I work on it from time to time.

    Plus, it's not a clamshell design. This means ... like with Newtown, you have to carry a keyboard with you. It's okay when you're in your lab. It's a problem when you travel.

    Worse, the touchscreen driver doesn't work properly because it's too noisy, still I don't understand what I did wrong, but forget about the on-screen virtual keyboard, which isn't like a physical keyboard anyway.
  • Olimex Teres1
    My Teres1 has the same "OpenSource/Hardware friendly" philosophy, it just sucks because it's made on a crappy ARM SoC that Olimex doesn't want to update, and they told a lot of bullshit about the possibility of making MIPS mobos in the future ... which is why I took that laptop. Forget it, won't happen, and the keyboard sucks. 300 euros wasted on a @%U%#$ toy, I know.

Quote
The fact that it's fully open source is an interesting novelty but so what? How many people are going to modify the design and build one themselves and to what end? I just don't see much advantage over a commercial offering.

potentially it could open the door to similar products, ever better, ever more open, and perhaps based on RISC-V.

The price of getting rid of x86: it's priceless, just pride  :o :o :o
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 06:12:08 am by DiTBho »
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2023, 06:07:42 am »
compatibility for x86 is what is really needed. People want computer systems to run the same software packages they are already using.

Sure, it's the fault of like-minded people that we still have *** in 2023 **** machines that boot up in real mode, in segmented memory, expecting to find a 512-byte MBR that tells them how to switch into protected mode and then into long mode.

compatibility for x86 :palm:
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Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2023, 07:16:43 am »
Sure, it's the fault of like-minded people that we still have *** in 2023 **** machines that boot up in real mode, in segmented memory, expecting to find a 512-byte MBR that tells them how to switch into protected mode and then into long mode.

compatibility for x86 :palm:

Who cares how it boots up? Once it gets into the operating system all of that is totally irrelevant. The reason x86 matters (in some cases) is the huge library of x86 software. A computer is useless without software, and if the software one wants to use requires x86 then compatibility is a big deal. Why should anyone that is not developing operating system code care the slightest bit about a system having to deal with a bunch of legacy stuff at boot time? It's totally transparent.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2023, 07:20:05 am »
sure, mass made for the mass, which was fine in the late 80s and early 90s because other platforms (e.g. HP 715, SGI Indigo, ... (and I am not quoting BIG irons but rather ... the cheapest, which were 2x expensive than a PC)) were too expensive, and Intel, AMD, IBM, and Microsoft made a lot of money on IBM desktop PCs and IBM PC-laptop, but x86 && PC_BIOS MUST die because they are the crappiest things on the planet nowadays in 2023.

If we keep buying those things just because they're cheaper... we'll never get rid of them  :o :o :o

I don't even understand why you'd want to get rid of them. I literally give zero shits how the BIOS in my system works or what the CPU architecture is, provided it boots up reliably and runs the software I want it to run. What difference does it make if it's 1983 or 2023 or 2053? If it works it works, and compatibility is king and cheaper is a huge benefit, I see zero reason to pay more for ideological reasons.
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2023, 07:54:09 am »
Who cares how it boots up?

I do! For example, the Soekris BIOS is full of bugs, and you guess who has to fix them?

Once it gets into the operating system all of that is totally irrelevant

LOL  :-DD
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2023, 08:06:12 am »
I don't even understand why you'd want to get rid of them. I literally give zero shits how the BIOS in my system works or what the CPU architecture is, provided it boots up reliably and runs the software I want it to run. What difference does it make if it's 1983 or 2023 or 2053? If it works it works, and compatibility is king and cheaper is a huge benefit, I see zero reason to pay more for ideological reasons.

How utterly depressing is computing because of people like you  :palm:

then they also come to complain that intel/amd puts shit in the bios and they're spied on (libreboot? coreboot?), and no one wants to put their hand in that and it goes on for years.

worse still, then you still have to deal with a series of brain-dead hardware designers who assume that if a design is good enough for the next 5 minutes it will be good enough for the next 10 years.

(you all, IBM designers)


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Offline james_s

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2023, 05:25:04 pm »
How utterly depressing is computing because of people like you  :palm:

then they also come to complain that intel/amd puts shit in the bios and they're spied on (libreboot? coreboot?), and no one wants to put their hand in that and it goes on for years.

worse still, then you still have to deal with a series of brain-dead hardware designers who assume that if a design is good enough for the next 5 minutes it will be good enough for the next 10 years.

(you all, IBM designers)

Why? Can you articulate why any of this matters? Why should I, as a user, care? I turn on my computer, it boots up, it runs the software I need, it's stable and doesn't crash (much), what exactly is the problem? I don't find computing depressing, what is depressing about it? In fact I think it's fantastic, for a mere few hundred bucks we can have computing power that rivals the fastest supercomputers of the 80s that fit in the palm of our hand, mere mortals can afford terabytes of storage and gigabytes of RAM, computers are more powerful and more affordable than at any time in history, that's not depressing, that's amazing! Computers are tools, even as a technical person I don't really care how they work inside beyond a passing curiosity, 99.9% of computer users don't have a clue how a computer works and couldn't give a shit less. I'm typing this on a 12 year old laptop that works just fine, why shouldn't I assume this design that was good enough 12 years ago will be good enough 12 years into the future? Personal computers are a mature commodity now, it's not 1985 anymore, we don't need to upgrade every 6 months to be able to run current software and I'm thankful for that.

So explain it like I'm 5, what, precisely is the problem with x86 hardware from the perspective of an ordinary person that has a goal of using software to accomplish a given task? Let's say I want to use Photoshop, play some music, browse the web, watch youtube and write a few emails. What's the issue?
 

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2023, 01:31:20 pm »
LOL, just realized my new FC hard drives use 4096-byte per sector while the stupid FC-to-pATA adapter says the PC_BIOS (of my Soekris Net5501) needs all pretend to have 512-byte sectors because for decades dead-brain programmers have always assumed they can't be any other length.

As a result, nothing works just out of the box until - once again, I fix it  :-DD

I want to buy a time machine to live 30 - better 50 - years in the future
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2023, 02:10:43 pm »
if someone is interested in my Newtown-like PDA, feel free to contact me in private (PM).
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Offline Infraviolet

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2023, 02:24:38 am »
My support for x86 is only in terms of ensuring software compatibility once the PC is logged in, quite how it boots up to reach that state is neither here nor there, so long as it does not do so using some evil "secure" boot system designed to prevent those users who want to from installing any linux distro of their choice.
 
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Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

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Re: (expensive, but) mnt pocket-reform (arm 7" mini-laptop)
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2023, 09:25:41 am »
My support for x86 is only in terms of ensuring software compatibility once the PC is logged in

This is exactly the reason why I said computer science in 2023 is utterly depressing: because we know x86 is a very narrow-minded architecture brought with itself, but who cares? Just let's go on buying it because it's so crazy cheap.

- - -

I'm an MS-DOS v{4,5,6.22} veteran and I have seen each and every generation of PCs from a developer's perspective!

Both Microsoft { DOS, Windows } and intel {8051, 8088, x86 } limited my education to the point that I think the world would have been better off if Intel had gone bust right away bankrupt, giving way to CPU designers with their brains instead of their asses.

Their first 8086 in real mode had a rather strange memory addressing scheme which allowed a single memory location
  • to be addressed in *** up to 4096 different ways ***. Note their idiocy here, 4096 { segment:offset } aliases would have been so much simpler if the segment part were strictly higher-order bits of a 32-bit address.
  • limited RAM to 64Kbyte segments (the MS-DOS .com files were of this kind), max 1 MB physically addressable
  • forced programmers to deal with two different sizes of pointers
  • x86 calling conventions are not standardized, leaving devs with the mess of { __cdecl, __stdcall, __fastcall, ... }
  • In real mode, there are no "general purpose registers", there are dedicated registers, and the insanely low number is nothing but a horrible performance killer (2)
  • the { segment:offset } addressing was/is an attempt to stay compatible to some extent with the CP/M world
  • very inefficient style of development on the lowest CISC level instead of an efficient load/store methodology (1)


That happened due to a simple design decision by Intel at the Machine instruction level instead of at the upper levels of compatibility with something (8085) that was already dying.

Oh, and 8085 sucks! Especially when you compare it with 68hc11!

And when you compare 80{0,1}86 with 680{0,2}0 ... the 68k family has a 32bit linear addressing space and a clear path to 4 GB, so going to a 32-bit processor makes it easier to access more than 64K, the 8086 is a 16-bit architecture which was designed to be a step up from the 8-bit 8080, and I see no reason Intel should have leaped directly from an 8-bit to a 32-bit one.

Oh, and 8080 sucks a lot when you compare it with z80.

Oh, and what about "intel RISC?" the i960? it's pure horrible garbage! Those like me who have had to work on RAID controllers know that it's a nightmare to program.

* * *  Intel is very bad at designing CPUs, insanely great at making aggressive marketing with tons of bullshit and low-price offers, and they don't go bankrupt thanks to idiots like us (including me, as I am working with a Soektris Net5501, x86-based) who keep buying their garbage

So it's our fault.


edit:
(1) the MOVSB instruction
Code: [Select]
if (DF isEqualTo 0)  *(byte*)DI++ = *(byte*)SI++;
else *(byte*)DI-- = *(byte*)SI--;
single instruction doing a load, a store, and two adds or subtracts controlled by a flag input


(2) Compared to RISC and 68k(3), the perceived "inelegance" of x86 registers mostly comes from the misconception that the registers of an 8086 are "general-purpose" registers: although it's a very bad design, that's not correct, each of x86-register has a "special purpose" and if you don't stick to their purposes, you are going to have a bad time.

(3) the 68000 has 4 kinds of registers: 8 data registers ( {D0..D7}, all 32bit), 7 address-pointer registers ( {A0..A6}, all 32bit), the stack pointer (SP=A7, 32bit), CPU-and-ALU-status register.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2023, 12:15:26 pm by DiTBho »
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