A week using an Apple iPhone -- An Android user's perspective

[bd139]

iOS + the accompanying hardware is absolutely the best out of the box security consumers can get right now for a smartphone or tablet.

The only unanswered question for me, really, is just how much Apple's A series chipsets might prove vulnerable to attacks on speculative execution. Given the strong emphasis on single threaded performance (which is basically unrivalled still), I can easily imagine that there may exist vulnerabilities in that regard. Hopefully the very smart chip people they've been hiring over the past decade or so have been taking notes from Intel. We'll find out one way or another I'll wager.

Apple's strong vertical integration also mitigates supply chain attacks, such as the one Google discovered where Android devices were loaded with malware before the buyer even opened the box. [1]

[1]: https://krebsonsecurity.com/2019/06/tracing-the-supply-chain-attack-on-android-2/

Indeed.

AFAIK they are well defended against speculative execution attacks. They made a couple of things non-time deterministic on the platform side of things which at least stops stuff being read from untrusted code (javascript etc). LLVM has some speculative load hardening stuff in it which is pretty neat: https://llvm.org/docs/SpeculativeLoadHardening.html . One of the whole Apple things, as you mention, is the vertical integration. That means there's less crap out there without microcode updates deployed as well.

However out of all the things that worry me, the killer is shared cloud infrastructure. You're literally sharing CPUs and memory with fuck knows who.

You miss the point, perhaps intentionally.

FaceID is about authenticating your presence, not a gateway to tapping on your phone in traffic and driving into an orphan school bus leading to children running around on a carriageway on fire getting hit by soccer moms in their SUVs who turn to alcohol.

Your presence is required to be authenticated when certain information boundaries are crossed like revealing personal information or acting on behalf of you via Siri. Like in the above examples:

1. authentication is required before Siri lets you navigate "home" because it doesn't want to give away where home is to someone who isn't you.
2. authentication is required before Siri lets you send a message as yourself, because it doesn't want to allow someone else to act on behalf of you.
3. when i open my banking app (santander) and before I transfer money to someone.

This is pretty damn sensible. It just happens to unlock the phone at the same time.

Also I'm sure this will be followed by waah waah etc. Read this first please: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208108

And if you want to disable it, such as pre-arrest, squeeze the side buttons and your phone bricks itself until the normal PIN is entered.

Edit: I genuinely think people should go and read this. This document is mostly why I use iOS. It explains how all this shit works, how it works together and what protection there is in place in the properly integrated hardware and OS environment:

https://www.apple.com/business/site/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

Seriously sit down with it for a couple of hours and take the time to understand how it all works and how much effort has gone into it, particularly compared to Android, and what the real security outcome is.

I think we're talking about different things. I was just saying you shouldn't be dicking with your phone while driving. You'd think that's obvious, but a quick look in the real world and at statistics show it's definitely not. Research shows none of the hands free systems mitigate the added risk to anywhere near the point of not existing.

Yep it's obvious. However the technology can't be blamed for the incompetence of the human race.

Let's take a trip back to the early 1980s. So we're off to Devon on holiday. Being the oldest of my siblings it was my duty to sit in the boot of the family estate car. My seat was a couple of cans of paint, the carpet various sharp and dangerous tools. Seatbelts were not worn. There was no impact protection on the vehicle anywhere. The vehicle would basically fold up if there was an accident and we'd all be dead. My father pulls in at lunch time somewhere on the South coast as we go the scenic route. He has a couple of pints of beer and jumps right back in the car and drives the rest of the way.

My point; we've come a long way. Let's not throw technology on the fire and lets keep improving it so that risks that people do take are minimised. The point of Siri and FaceID isn't novelty but it turns the productive interactions with your phone into a simple voice protocol akin to having a conversation with your passenger, a well understood and known risk.

The irony of this is it is going the opposite direction of the car manufacturers who have added lots of stupid stupid stupid touch screens to vehicles.

[Mr. Scram]

Indeed.

AFAIK they are well defended against speculative execution attacks. They made a couple of things non-time deterministic on the platform side of things which at least stops stuff being read from untrusted code (javascript etc). LLVM has some speculative load hardening stuff in it which is pretty neat: https://llvm.org/docs/SpeculativeLoadHardening.html . One of the whole Apple things, as you mention, is the vertical integration. That means there's less crap out there without microcode updates deployed as well.

However out of all the things that worry me, the killer is shared cloud infrastructure. You're literally sharing CPUs and memory with fuck knows who.


Yep it's obvious. However the technology can't be blamed for the incompetence of the human race.

Let's take a trip back to the early 1980s. So we're off to Devon on holiday. Being the oldest of my siblings it was my duty to sit in the boot of the family estate car. My seat was a couple of cans of paint, the carpet various sharp and dangerous tools. Seatbelts were not worn. There was no impact protection on the vehicle anywhere. The vehicle would basically fold up if there was an accident and we'd all be dead. My father pulls in at lunch time somewhere on the South coast as we go the scenic route. He has a couple of pints of beer and jumps right back in the car and drives the rest of the way.

My point; we've come a long way. Let's not throw technology on the fire and lets keep improving it so that risks that people do take are minimised. The point of Siri and FaceID isn't novelty but it turns the productive interactions with your phone into a simple voice protocol akin to having a conversation with your passenger, a well understood and known risk.

The irony of this is it is going the opposite direction of the car manufacturers who have added lots of stupid stupid stupid touch screens to vehicles.

Talking on the phone is more dangerous than talking to a passenger, although it's possible to cherry pick different results from different studies. I can't find any studies done on voice interaction, but there seems little reason to assume that fares better. I've honestly never heard anyone claim it is a useful productivity tool before. We've come a long way indeed and the numbers show it. The amount of people killed on the roads have declined by orders of magnitude, although the number of cars on the road and miles driven have increased dramatically. I agree with the observation we may be heading in the wrong direction. Embedding what's essentially a smartphone into the car's dashboard seems a bit obtuse, especially as the screens often allow interacting with said phone.

[Mechatrommer]

Also I'm sure this will be followed by waah waah etc. Read this first please: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT208108

well i'm flattered. my samsung galaxy A7 sounds just like that... and the side button recognize up to 3 of my fingers print.

The technology that enables Face ID is some of the most advanced hardware and software that we’ve ever created

how many options for scientific calculators in itune store? can you have dB calculator? or guitar tuner? or Quran/Bible/Holybook?

and reading about Siri (i never heard before) Samsung's Bixby is actually the counterpart for it. i didnt know and i dumped that app to i dont now where, i think i'll need to dig and learn that to see what it can do, i thought its just some stupid annoying manager that i really hate, dont care and dont need, like before.

[bd139]

Sounds like you need an SSB rig not a smartphone

As for calculators I’ve got an HP48 emulator

[Halcyon]

iOS + the accompanying hardware is absolutely the best out of the box security consumers can get right now for a smartphone or tablet.

For the average consumer, yes, this is true. But for individuals and organisations who require high security devices, not so. I can't go into details as (among other reasons) I'm bound to a NDA, but bypassing certain PINs/Passwords and/or re-enabling the data port on most iOS devices and software versions is relatively trivial with the right tools. I don't fully know how it works, nor do I want to, but I know enough to say that the method(s) employed seem to be integral to the way Apple/iOS works or else Apple would have patched it a long time ago and/or it's a such a low risk to most people so Apple don't really care.

The balance between security and functionality is crucial. For the most part, consumers couldn't care less about encryption or cyber security. Make a system "too secure" and the user experience suffers.

[0culus]

So? If your threat model includes adversaries capable of leveraging (likely) 0days against your specific device(s), you probably shouldn't be using a smartphone (or any other mobile device) in the first place. If you're talking about attacks against the secure enclave itself, that's pretty much limiting the field of threat actors to nation states. John Q Public isn't worth blowing up a 0day or some other high end exploit on.

For regular people, my point stands. iDevices are some of the best usable security available.

[0culus]

And conversely...if you do have a nation state interested in you, you have way bigger problems than phone security.

[Mr. Scram]

So? If your threat model includes adversaries capable of leveraging (likely) 0days against your specific device(s), you probably shouldn't be using a smartphone (or any other mobile device) in the first place. If you're talking about attacks against the secure enclave itself, that's pretty much limiting the field of threat actors to nation states. John Q Public isn't worth blowing up a 0day or some other high end exploit on.

For regular people, my point stands. iDevices are some of the best usable security available.

I think you may be overestimating what's needed. The average crook may not posses these kinds of tools, but it's not far fetched for not very special forensics departments to possess these capabilities. Tthere are a few companies selling these capabilities at healthy prices. Cellebrite boasts it can get you access to any iPhone or iPad. You don't expose your exploit either, which makes all the difference in the world.

[Halcyon]

Precisely Mr. Scram. Cellebrite are just one vendor offering both in-house services and an end-user packaged product. There are others out there and this kind of capability doesn't cost the world either.

Apple devices are just one example of security not being as strong as people believe. There are plenty of other examples too. Low-end Android phones are almost laughable in terms of the "security" they offer. Even some high-end flagship phones can be exploited (not all, but some). The days of Blackberry being the choice of secure handset for crooks and other people who demand high security are just about over. These days, those kinds of users are turning to Android and its variants.

[bd139]

And conversely...if you do have a nation state interested in you, you have way bigger problems than phone security.

This is the main point. From a corporate perspective the game is risk minimisation via due diligence not absolute protection against national entities. Incidentally I know what our national entities are capable of and I’m rather more worried about the criminals with a lot of stolen AWS credentials at their disposal. The average joe has a much more productive vector if you (a) own his online accounts and (b) rubber hose him.

Also I call bullshit on proposed vectors. If you’re in that line of work (I have been) then you don’t even disclose possibility especially on a public forum. I’m still covered by my obligations of silence and take them seriously.

Edit: also Cellebrite has an adversary to consider who is better funded, has a lot more experience and doesn’t want them around any more.

[Marco]

I know enough to say that the method(s) employed seem to be integral to the way Apple/iOS works

That working must be insanity then, because they have 100s of billions worth of commercial interest in such methods not existing.

They can have no commercial interest in a backdoor and the US won't put Polonium in Tim Cooks espresso if he doesn't play ball either.

[mnementh]

I think we're talking about different things. I was just saying you shouldn't be dicking with your phone while driving. You'd think that's obvious, but a quick look in the real world and at statistics show it's definitely not. Research shows none of the hands free systems mitigate the added risk to anywhere near the point of not existing.

Yep it's obvious. However the technology can't be blamed for the incompetence of the human race.

Let's take a trip back to the early 1980s. So we're off to Devon on holiday. Being the oldest of my siblings it was my duty to sit in the boot of the family estate car. My seat was a couple of cans of paint, the carpet various sharp and dangerous tools. Seatbelts were not worn. There was no impact protection on the vehicle anywhere. The vehicle would basically fold up if there was an accident and we'd all be dead. My father pulls in at lunch time somewhere on the South coast as we go the scenic route. He has a couple of pints of beer and jumps right back in the car and drives the rest of the way.

My point; we've come a long way. Let's not throw technology on the fire and lets keep improving it so that risks that people do take are minimised. The point of Siri and FaceID isn't novelty but it turns the productive interactions with your phone into a simple voice protocol akin to having a conversation with your passenger, a well understood and known risk.

The irony of this is it is going the opposite direction of the car manufacturers who have added lots of stupid stupid stupid touch screens to vehicles.

I agree with both points... to a point. If human beings weren't in general utterly ignorant assholes about pretty much everything except the single thing on their mind at the moment, we wouldn't HAVE TO HAVE LAWS AGAINST TEXTING WHILE DRIVING.  So now you start looking at ways to employ the "nanny state" built-in to your devices... and because human beings are ALSO generally contrarian by nature, even those locked in the "authoritarian paradigm" mindset... THAT ALSO backfires almost every time.

Case in point... cars and seatbelt nag-a-matrons. I've completely disabled them on a number of vehicles; snipped wires or installed jumpers as needed because they were too persistent or couldn't be turned off at the dealership. Not because I don't believe in seatbelts; I'm a diehard seatbelt advocate going WAAAAY back. I've been on too many MVAs... you have to scoop a vic's brains back into his skull for the ambulance guys to cart his carcass off just ONCE, and you'll be changed, I promise.

But I believe in seatbelts for PEOPLE; not my toolbag in the seat beside me, and I REALLY don't believe in having a fucking MACHINE bitch at me because I DON'T. My wife's new Rav4 is just such an example; not only does it have a seatbelt nag-a-matron, it is configured so it blots out ALL OTHER notifications... even turn-signal ticks and collision avoidance while it's busy bitching at you... AND it is progressively MORE INSISTENT for a good 90 seconds, AND if you stop the vehicle for more than 30 seconds, it STARTS ALL OVER AGAIN.    THIS IS, IMO, excessive in the extreme, and actually will CAUSE more unsafe driving than it ensures; here's why:

As I said... I'm a longtime seatbelt advocate. Even at age 9 & 11, I STILL make sure my kids are buckled up (and usually myself) before I'll move the car. But on the occasions when I forget for a minute... I'll find myself unconsciously turning up the radio, or just plain deliberately ignoring the fucking thing and NOT putting my seatbelt on until AFTER it stops bitching at me. BECAUSE IT PISSED ME OFF. If it were my vehicle (and not still under warranty) I'd have bought a hacked chip for it months ago. Instead, I put up with it, and drive pissed off half the time.

Obviously I'm not the only one... or even a minority, because up & down the internet you can see people posting the same exact annoyances I've described here. How does hundreds of thousands of people driving while annoyed at their vehicle as the embodiment of the nanny state improve public safety? 

And no, this isn't a "libtard nanny state" thing. They've been out of power more than long enough that you simply cannot pin shit like this on them. It is a "bureaucratic bullshit nanny state" thing, and a "everybody handling public safety like a hot potato rather than actually do something about it" thing.

I promise you... as soon as they CAN turn this shit off at the dealership, or my wife finally gives up from me bitching about the bitch-a-matron... it is going to GO. Life's too short to put up with SHIT for it's own sake.

mnem

[bd139]

Just a point on carrying toolboxes etc. A number of years ago my uncle had a tool box on his front seat in his Alfa and rolled it after hitting a badger. The car cabin survived perfectly fine but the toolbox landed square is his face and shattered his skull and cheek bone.

Also with the seat belt, missing it once can be a problem. You still need to be inside the vehicle to potentially control it and prevent further harm. Plus it's not much fun that one time you forget:



I'd rather be pestered. It never goes off in mine

[Mr. Scram]

Loose items in the cab are a risk, either when they hit you or when they get stuck under your pedals. You wouldn't be the first to die while desperately trying to stamp through an item under the brake pedal. Or killed by whatever was in the back seat.

[mnementh]

These things are all true, but it's still none of my car's fucking business. I don't want it talking to me until it can carry a conversation, and I certainly don't want it bitching at me until it knows the difference between a person and a bag of drills.

mnem
And I STILL have the right to make this choice.

[mnementh]

Just a point on carrying toolboxes etc. A number of years ago my uncle had a tool box on his front seat in his Alfa and rolled it after hitting a badger. The car cabin survived perfectly fine but the toolbox landed square is his face and shattered his skull and cheek bone.

Also with the seat belt, missing it once can be a problem. You still need to be inside the vehicle to potentially control it and prevent further harm. Plus it's not much fun that one time you forget:



I'd rather be pestered. It never goes off in mine

You do know that vid's been totally debunked as an utter fake, right? Along with the one with that 1d10t on a motorbike in Hong Kong...

And that is YOUR CHOICE to make.

mnem

[Mechatrommer]

when some brain dead try to make law enforcement about seat belt, then thats what happened. the car designed to beep the time you turn on the engine, traffic police will give you ticket if you dont fasten your seat belt even inside a city traffic running slow 5km/h or jammed, i have few tickets that i dont bother to pay, wait until i become millionaire fking ridiculous law. i guess it will be case if no texting while driving law is enforced. there should be speed limit only after you pass that limit then you have to wear seatbelt or put your phone away, this limit should also be included in the law. i only text while traffic is jammed or moderately slow that i will have enough time to brake or otherwise worst case scenario of collision will not involve life. i programmed myself to not look away more than the estimated time needed for collision to object up front, when i reach certain speed limit say 70-80km/h, i buckle up. texting is much danger, you need to put away your phone at more than say 30km/h. about the selt belt fking beep annoyance, no need any electronic modification... i'll get this... Seat Belt Buckle Extender Clip but at more than 80km/h i dont need traffic officer to warn me, its my life i'm dealing with.

well, there is no fixing to stupidity, you can enforce no texting to pedestrians as well, too many dead as well hit by vehicles while crossing road. maybe the cure is to show kids gruesome videos for lesson such as this happiness turn stupidity live streaming video... if you keep charming cute happy go lucky everyday, they'll forget whats possibility of stupidity they are going to do tomorrow.

[bd139]

The arrogance here is unbelievable.

It’s other people’s lives you’re risking too.

Plus you have to deal with medical insurance and crap even if it is your life.

As a former cyclist I was actually wiped out by someone texting in traffic as well at 5mph so that’s really no excuse.

[Mr. Scram]

You do know that vid's been totally debunked as an utter fake, right? Along with the one with that 1d10t on a motorbike in Hong Kong...

And that is YOUR CHOICE to make.

mnem

Real or not, it's a good representation of how countless people meet their untimely demise each year. A modern car's crash structure is a marvel of engineering, but depends on you being in a somewhat fixed place in the car. It all takes an unfortunate toll on society.

[mnementh]

Yes and no. If you're using that as an example of why you or I SHOULD wear a seat belt, sure. You're preaching to the choir, buddy. 

But if you're using it an an example of why I should belt everything in my car down, or ESPECIALLY as an example of why it's a good thing my stupid car bitches at me and creates annoyed, distracted drivers... bite me.

mnem
You know you want to.

[ebastler]

Just started to type a complaint that this thread has moved way off topic.
Then I remembered the original topic.
Ah, never mind... 

[bd139]

This is nothing. We have a test gear thread that is talking about real crocodiles for shoes 

[mnementh]

Hey! We're getting better! Right now we're talking about testing USB ports with a Tesla Generator...!!! 

mnem
*Off. Slightly.*

[mnementh]

And Now For Something Completely... ON TOPIC!



mnem
There... feel better?

[brucehoult]

Premium grade iPhone at least 2 years, usually 3 and retains 40% of value after two years.

I'm using an iPhone 7 -- almost three years old -- with absolutely no plans to replace it any time soon. My wife is using an iPhone 6s and ditto. They are in perfect physical condition, run the latest software, and just simply are not broken.