A wireless mouse that doesn't suck

[rrinker]

 Wouldn't help my mobile Logitech problem - the SWITCH is just fine. It's the plastic numb on the bottom of the button casting that wore off in a little over a month, and does not depress the plunger of the microswitch enough to trigger it. The switch itself, if presses with something, works just fine. After such a short time, it actually had very few operations on it.

[Black Phoenix]

3DConnection Cad Mouse Mini is the bees knees if you are doing any type of cad work.

Im sure it would be just fine for gaming as well. I have the smaller one, as the professional seems big in my hands.

Currently in JD.com they have a promotion of that Cad Mouse plus the Dial and both with carrying cases. I thing it was CN¥1700.

[LeonR]

Logitech seem to have trouble with mouse switches for some time now. I had a MX500, one f the first to take ergonomics into account (and one of the first to be used by professional gamers) that had no switch issues whatsoever even after some 10 yeats of use to the point where the shell would have discoloration on the most frictioned parts. Back then, Logi issued Zippy (Taiwan) microswitches inside their mice.

I've had double click issues only on a G500, after a paltry one and half year. Good thing it had a 2 year warranty, it took just 10 days for the whole RMA process (new mouse was dispatched from USA to Brazil). One of best supports I've ever used.

There's a pretty technical and detailed video about thia problem:

[MyHeadHz]

Did you look at the MX Master yet? I have two of them. Bluetooth and Logitech anywhere.
Battery last about two weeks on a charge.
Scroll wheel is amazing.
Horizontal scroll works shit in windows.

To my experience, every single Logitech fail in two years, give or take. Including high end gaming series and high end office series and high end mobile series.

Unless it's stupidly expensive, I usually just buy the one with the highest price tag, but apparently that doesn't directly translate to quality.

I'm now seriously considering to keep using the kit mouse from my Mac (Apple Magic Mouse 2), and I've heard good news from my friends (two of them, each having one from 2016, both are working fine to this day).

So far, I miss nothing, except for CS:GO. For some more casual games and RTS games, it handles them fine.

As far as I can tell, all of the current big players in gaming (Logitech, Razer, etc) use terrible switches, parts, and plating without exception.  I keep having to go back to basic featureless Microsoft mice simply because they are consistent and reliable.  Apple mice are good as well.

I know of no quality IBM or Cherry MX equivalents for mice.  There are feature mice with crap quality, or quality mice with no features.  If anyone knows of an actual quality brand of mice, other than basic mice, please do tell.

EDIT: I watched that video LeonR posted, and it has a great deal of information that explains pretty much everything thoroughly.  I will probably end up buying some replacement switches like the ones he shows to repair some old mice, as well as avoid problem mice in the future.

[LeonR]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

[Black Phoenix]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

Wrong, even by keeping the outside design of the mouse, they changed the switches to the Omron D2FC-F-7N, the ones that develop double clicking after a while (see all the other mouses they have with the same switches and what most of users report on the r/mousereviews about double clicking).

For what I know there are other manufacturer making mouse switches that is being used in some other brands, mainly Kailh that have a 1 by 1 design compatible with that Omron and until now I didn't saw reports of them developing double clicking in 6 months. Or if you can get the Zippy ones, the ones that for years equiped mouses without making them double click after 6 months, that's also great.

Also if someone can get the D2F-01 and D2F-01-F they are Japan Made, pin compatible and better reliability that the Chinese  D2FC-F-7N. The problem is that the Japanese ones are not manufactured anymore, having been replaced by the Chinese made ones, that develop the problem.

In my opinion for me the solution is a switch that is Optical (Razer is using some optical switches in one of their own mice, the Razer Viper and some keyboard already also have them, the Opto-Mechanical one used on the Razer Huntsman) or halo effect ones like the solution used in keyboard made by Wooting, the Wooting One, the Steelseries Apex Pro or even the ones being developed by Input Club, the SILO Beam Spring Switches for their new coming Analogue keyboard, the Input Club Keystone.

[LeonR]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

Wrong, even by keeping the outside design of the mouse, they changed the switches to the Omron D2FC-F-7N, the ones that develop double clicking after a while (see all the other mouses they have with the same switches and what most of users report on the r/mousereviews about double clicking).

For what I know there are other manufacturer making mouse switches that is being used in some other brands, mainly Kailh that have a 1 by 1 design compatible with that Omron and until now I didn't saw reports of them developing double clicking in 6 months. Or if you can get the Zippy ones, the ones that for years equiped mouses without making them double click after 6 months, that's also great.

Also if someone can get the D2F-01 and D2F-01-F they are Japan Made, pin compatible and better reliability that the Chinese  D2FC-F-7N. The problem is that the Japanese ones are not manufactured anymore, having been replaced by the Chinese made ones, that develop the problem.

In my opinion for me the solution is a switch that is Optical (Razer is using some optical switches in one of their own mice, the Razer Viper and some keyboard already also have them, the Opto-Mechanical one used on the Razer Huntsman) or halo effect ones like the solution used in keyboard made by Wooting, the Wooting One, the Steelseries Apex Pro or even the ones being developed by Input Club, the SILO Beam Spring Switches for their new coming Analogue keyboard, the Input Club Keystone.

I'm using a G400s equipped with those 7N switches for almost 7 years now (imported it when it was just released back in 2013) and haven't experienced any issues at all. And I play a lot of FPS/click intensive games. The switches aren't the sole culprits.

There are other manufacturers of such D-class microswitches that are also compatible, such as Honeywell, Cherry, Huano, TTC, etc.

You should watch the video I posted above.

[Black Phoenix]

I'm using a G400s equipped with those 7N switches for almost 7 years now (imported it when it was just released back in 2013) and haven't experienced any issues at all. And I play a lot of FPS/click intensive games. The switches aren't the sole culprits.

There are other manufacturers of such D-class microswitches that are also compatible, such as Honeywell, Cherry, Huano, TTC, etc.

You should watch the video I posted above.

Ok after having seen the video, yes I agree with you, the switches are not the only ones to cause that. For that I apologised since I didn't saw it that way and talked about something without knowing the full picture.

Still I keep the last of my post when I mentioned another kind of switches technologies.

[Mechatrommer]

since the persistence of the thread let me chime in... i'm a fan of wireless keyboard + mouse set, i never look back to wired setup, so when i buy a mouse i buy the keyboard too as a set. i once owned a4tech and now on Gigabyte GK-K7500 for many years, after countless number of fix and repair on mouse switches and keyboard flex traces. its less ideal for me since the keyboard is ANSI type (small) "Enter" key (with "\" key on top), as a casual programmer and having learnt muscle memory from old bar type (big) Enter key, i find myself always hitting the "\" key instead of "Enter", so the next time i search for new wireless set, it should be at least Bar type or ISO type. i have 2 wireless set ready in stock bought at separate time span (one is Genius SlimStar 8010, one is HK6500 China), because i find this Gigabyte soon will one day FUBAR. but i got stuck with this less ideal GK-K7500's why? because of the fucking rotary sound/volume wheel, its just fucking good i cant get rid of it, my soul will be dependent on it when watching movie or listen to youtube or songs, so i'm using it to the last blood.

its not produced anymore so i struggled to find new/latest model that has the same of good as the 7500's wheel (ISO layout) to no success, however expensive the model brand is. so i just buy the closest i can get to my desire/spec (big/ISO Enter key and a volume wheel) now vol+ and vol- keys is pretty common, less good than a wheel, buts its better than nothing. remember i already have 2 sets in stock (ISO layout) but i still hesitated to get rid of this old K7500 due to its volume wheel (albeit less than ideal for programmer/typist ANSI layout). brand like Logitech doesnt provide ISO layout so they are thrown away out of radar, ironically the best brand that i can find closest to my spec is China cheapy wireless brand (attached) should be good for game (colored AWSD) and has vol+ vol- keys. although, many china wireless brand still provide ANSI layout nevermind the destructible mouse, i never found one. the fix is opening it up, tearing the microswitches apart and cleaning them myself, and glue them back together is the best i can get, but it probably works only for me, everybody else maybe different, so ymmv. so i think, when choosing a mouse, just choose whatever you can enjoy for a shortwhile, and when they die, just buy another one, they are cheap like dirt and expendable.



(ps: an owner of Gigabyte dedicated mouse ECO600 and 6 sets of PS/2 keyboards and mouses in stock beside those 2 wireless sets.. to prepare for the end of the world )

[wraper]

There's a pretty technical and detailed video about thia problem:

Guy is completely wrong about D2FC-F-7N not being microload switch (wrong switch for application) because there is no "01" in part number. D2FC and D2F are different series, thus that datasheet he shows is not really relevant.

[NiHaoMike]

A Bluetooth mouse and PCIe Bluetooth card bypasses USB latency, but now you have Bluetooth latency...

[jonovid]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

[ebastler]

I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.

My TV set from LG came with a "magic remote", which does allow you to control a mouse-style pointer on the screen by pointing and tilting the remote control. It works quite differently from what you describe though, simply via accelerometers/gravitation sensors inside the remote unit. It carries a "Freespace" logo, hence must be this company's solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest_Labs#Technology_and_products

I imagine that's easier to implement in a robust way, as it does not depend on environmental lighting, size and distance of the screen etc.

[jonovid]

I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.

My TV set from LG came with a "magic remote", which does allow you to control a mouse-style pointer on the screen by pointing and tilting the remote control. It works quite differently from what you describe though, simply via accelerometers/gravitation sensors inside the remote unit. It carries a "Freespace" logo, hence must be this company's solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest_Labs#Technology_and_products

I imagine that's easier to implement in a robust way, as it does not depend on environmental lighting, size and distance of the screen etc.

interesting
got this video yes that is it   

a video from 2012

[emece67]

.

[tszaboo]

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

These (also on their wireless incarnations) are the mices I've using for years. For some reason their buttons seem to fail even more frequently than those of other Logitech mices (now I have 3 useless units on the drawer), so now I'm using MX Master "traditional" devices.

Their buttons being longer lasting ones, these would be the best ever mices I've ever used.

Dont you have a soldering station?

[emece67]

.

[tooki]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

I’m not quite sure what to say... this is a problem that’s already been solved before, as in Kinect, Wii, etc. But also, IR radiation isn’t dangerous per se. The only reason infrared lasers can be dangerous is because a) you can’t see the beam, and b) lasers of even modest wattage can cause eye damage (but that’s regardless of wavelength).

Sony used a (red visible light) holographic laser projector in a few digital cameras back in the early 00’s, which cast a field of red crosshatches onto the subject in order to focus in very low light (even full darkness). So even using lasers it’s possible to point it at humans without danger, it just has to be low power. iPhones use infrared microdot projectors for Face ID. So your assumptions are simply... wrong. Not that I think a projected dot field is a sensible approach to a mouse.

[tautech]

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

These (also on their wireless incarnations) are the mices I've using for years. For some reason their buttons seem to fail even more frequently than those of other Logitech mices (now I have 3 useless units on the drawer), so now I'm using MX Master "traditional" devices.

Their buttons being longer lasting ones, these would be the best ever mices I've ever used.

Interesting.
Button failures on only the wireless models or USB corded models too ? 
The 2 USB Trackman the wife and I have used for years have been brilliant and would replace them with the same in an instant.

Send me a price for the 3 broken ones you have with shipping to NZ.
TIA

[SilverSolder]

Is there a mouse, preferably wireless, that does not double click or random click over years of use?
[...]

I use an old Logitech MX310...   got a few of them around.  One of them was used by the kids for playing computer games... the underside of the mouse is worn down to a smoothly polished surface with no feet etc. left!  The buttons must have millions of clicks behind them, and still all work...

The one on my desk here is super precise, fast, and a pleasure to use - it never glitches, ever.  Must be approaching 20 years of daily use, it has outlived several PCs, keyboards, and monitors!

They probably had to stop making them because they were putting themselves out of business...

They fetch truly stupid money on eBay...  I bought mine surplus for about $3 each.  I should have filled a warehouse, I could have retired on the proceeds!

[emece67]

.

[tautech]

OK, I feel ashamed now    I've ordered some Omron switches for replacement.

 

Got your PM, thanks and if you ever consider parting with 2 I'm still interested.

The left one is not thumb-driven (and much less comfortable).

Tried a Trackball once and the same time as my first try with a Trackman....Trackman ever since.

[jonovid]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

I’m not quite sure what to say... this is a problem that’s already been solved before, as in Kinect, Wii, etc. But also, IR radiation isn’t dangerous per se. The only reason infrared lasers can be dangerous is because a) you can’t see the beam, and b) lasers of even modest wattage can cause eye damage (but that’s regardless of wavelength).

Sony used a (red visible light) holographic laser projector in a few digital cameras back in the early 00’s, which cast a field of red crosshatches onto the subject in order to focus in very low light (even full darkness). So even using lasers it’s possible to point it at humans without danger, it just has to be low power. iPhones use infrared microdot projectors for Face ID. So your assumptions are simply... wrong. Not that I think a projected dot field is a sensible approach to a mouse.

it was a DIY project that got too expensive over time, and beyond my capability.
making a mess of the TV room, whenever I was working in it. 
yes your right if I had persisted. it may have just worked 
in the end, I settled for a buffet side table for the home entertainment system,
with a bluetooth mouse and keyboard. as technology had moved on , so now
cheap bluetooth USB adapter PC/console hand controllers with a 5 Meter range came available in 2018. 

Xbox Kinect micro dot projector

ok
the Xbox Kinect tracking system has a micro dot projector see video.

[Ed.Kloonk]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

[jonovid]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

can u do a Teardown on one?