A wireless mouse that doesn't suck

[blueskull]

Is there a mouse, preferably wireless, that does not double click or random click over years of use?

I just found today my Logitech MX Anywhere 2S developed a random self clicking on middle button that causes quite a havoc (imagine 10+ apps opened simultaneously just because it clicked a few times when I moved over the taskbar).

And of course, Logitech is known for making mice with double clicking, and so far, since my first Logitech mouse, G9, back in 2008, no one has survived more than 2 years of use. I know I can replace the switches, but certain switches are not replaceable (side buttons are flex PCB switches built into the FPCs), and modern wireless mice are harder and harder to open without damaging them.

So far, Razer gave me good switch quality, but I really love the switchable frictionless scroll wheel of Logitech, and unfortunately, they patented it.

As for frictionless scrolling, I've tried touch sensing based scrolling, with MSFT Arc 2, Magic Mouse 2 and ThinkPad X1 Mouse. The first requires 3 fingers for middle click, which is a problem as it's small, and I have fat fingers. The second one doesn't have middle click as all, and Apple "patched" the APIs used by third party apps to emulate middle click. The third one doesn't work in macOS at all.

As a heavy Altium user, I NEED MIDDLE CLICK. Apple's scrolling is different than PC's. PC mice drivers send out fewer scroll signals without step size, while Apple mice drivers send out more scroll signals with step size info, so Apple can implement high res scrolling. Unfortunately, for apps doesn't support this and used raw input (games, VMs, etc.), that means macOS sends out too many scroll events, thus making it way too sensitive. Making things worse is the acceleration, both on tracking and on scrolling.

To make it simple, macOS (with current version of Parallels) will not work with Altium properly on scrolling, so without scrolling, middle click is the only way to move through a large design, thus I absolutely need middle clicking.






TL;DR: I need a mouse with Bluetooth connectivity, three long lasting buttons and preferably switchable frictionless scroll wheel.

Any suggestions?

[Mr. Scram]

I've experienced the same issue you have. Things tend to work well until a year or so in. Then you get various problems like choppy reception or missing or superfluous clicks.

[BravoV]

All my mouses have replaceable microswitches, I did it frequently as mostly they're the culprit.

[olkipukki]

Is there a mouse, preferably wireless, that does not double click or random click over years of use?

Not wireless - one of Razer Deathadder 2013 Essential lasted almost 6 years, another still fine, both in use on PC/Mac.
I replaced the broken one with Razer Deathadder Elite recently.

P.S.
I'm not a gamer.

[tautech]

I've bashed a wired USB Logitech Trackman for years and with some Altium usage too.
If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

[Rerouter]

I'm still using the same Microsoft wireless mouse 5000, All I've had to do is unscrew it and clean out the scroll wheel every year or so. the non stick pads are still using there original adhesive with no raised corners after 4 tear downs to do the clean out.

Though it does chew through 2 rechargeable AA's in about 4 weeks of moderate use.

I got it as a combo with a keyboard, the keyboard was rubbish, but the mouse is good.

And its still able to be purchased new.

[JustMeHere]

Use something like a playing card and see if there is any dirt stuck under the buttons.

[Halcyon]

Just grab an old fashioned Microsoft PS/2 ball mouse. The one's I've had for many years are still perfectly fine.

[wraper]

Dunno process in China but in EU/US with Logitech you can get replacement without ever sending original mouse back. That somewhat makes things better. This way I got two G700 and two G903. They developed double click problem, got replacement sent to me, fixed old one myself. Actually double click issue is strange since they use Omron switches which supposedly should be good.

[CatalinaWOW]

I must not click as often or heavily as you.  I have a couple of logitech M310 that are old enough I can't really remember when it they were purchased.  One is definitely nearing four and the other is probably older.  Both are doing fine, and meet my number one requirement, long battery life.  I have had wireless mice that demanded a new battery every other month which is just nasty.

[tautech]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

[tautech]

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

Tempted. I should try one at BestBuy tomorrow.

The Bay of evil has a good few 2nd hand ones for not too bad pricing:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Logitech+trackman&_sacat=0

Like anything Logitech you need their bloated driver package to get the full choice of button assignments.
I assign the scroll wheel press to ALT + LEFT which of course is very quick Back in many programs and browsers.

[tautech]

The Bay of evil has a good few 2nd hand ones for not too bad pricing:

Like anything Logitech you need their bloated driver package to get the full choice of button assignments.
I assign the scroll wheel press to ALT + LEFT which of course is very quick Back in many programs and browsers.

I was thinking the MX Ergo. Benefit of a current product is I can walk in a store and test drive it.
Also, ALT is assigned in my system, as SHIFT doesn't work well in Parallels+macOS, so I have to use ALT for horizontal scrolling in Altium.
The third button (and aux button) can both be useful especially in a VM environment where shortcuts are not all available.

Sooner or later I will have to either ditch Altium for KiCAD or ditch macOS for Windows.

Ah OK, the one I linked earlier.

The pic I linked a post or two back of the USB Trackman is the one we use as both the wife and I have preferred them for at least 15 years. Only in the workshop the teflon guides for the ball get grime and gundge from the ball and need to flick the ball out with a pencil and clean the guides each year or so. You can feel the drag on the ball when they need cleaning, otherwise not an ounce of bother with them over all those years.
Not sure I'd like the MX Ergo and that it rocks around where I now prefer a static mouse and one you can really rest your hand on.
If you get MX Ergo be sure to come back with some comments about it.

Windoze 10 Enterprise has been great and not too much different from 8.1 or 7 for that matter.
Take charge and get it set how you want and it's just fine.

[tautech]

Some MX Ergo user comments at the foot of this page from our major NZ PC retailer:
https://www.pbtech.co.nz/product/MSELOG3745150/Logitech-MX-Ergo-Advanced-Bluetooth-And-Wireless-T

[Dundarave]

You might have a look at the Logitech M557:

https://www.logitech.com/en-ca/product/bluetooth-mouse-m557

I've used them with my laptops for 4 years now and have never had an issue with them:  I think they're great and wouldn't use anything else.  I've never understood why anyone puts up with dongled mice when Bluetooth versions are available... it's crazy.

[Halcyon]

Just grab an old fashioned Microsoft PS/2 ball mouse. The one's I've had for many years are still perfectly fine.

So I can clean both the balls and the clit . Seriously, my computer doesn't even have a PS2 interface.
PS2/USB adapters only work on mice with native USB controller (it's sorta pass through device), not on mice with only real PS2 interface. Besides, not wireless.

In all seriousness though, I've used Microsoft mice for decades. Even the cheap ones are decent and really last. I wasn't too fussed on wireless so last time I needed keyboards/mice, I just bought a 5-pack from Dell. These are the mice I use: https://www.dell.com/en-au/work/shop/microsoft-basic-optical-mouse-black-for-business-5-units-per-pack/apd/a5694110/pc-accessories

They get abused but they just seem to keep working. The middle scroll wheel is a click as expected, but it also has a second "sideways right" click.

[wraper]

Logitech mice are not that bad. They don't break within their rated 1 year warranty period. On average, each mouse I had survived for about 2.5 years.
In most part of China, the minimum legal warranty period is 1 years, while certain provinces (Zhejiang, Guangdong, etc.) have 2 year minimum.
I'm currently in US, and while federal laws require an implied 4 year warranty, the process can be tedious (requiring proof of purchase, requiring shipping back, etc.), so once the one year BesyBuy in-store warranty expires, I consider it written off.

Logitech gaming mouses and many others usually have 2-3 year warranty even in US. Strange that your MX Anywhere 2S has only 1 year while cheaper non gaming product has 3 years https://www.logitech.com/en-us/product/wireless-mouse-m325-business?crid=7
EDIT: I checked more mouses and it seems only MX series have 1 year warranty. Even <$10 B100 has 3 year warranty.

[mzzj]

Logitech M705. Can't say for sure how long I have had mine but seems like forever. Even batteries last 3 years which is pretty good accomplishment.

[GregDunn]

I have gone through a buttload of wireless mice of several brands on different computers, and they have all been too heavy (batteries + extra junk inside) and full of connectivity issues.  Every couple of years I think I've been too harsh and try another one, but they all irritate me too much to keep them.  The Logi Trackman lasted the longest, but I do a lot of photo editing and freehand work, which is a poor fit for using my thumb.  I always come back to a Logi wired mouse, and the only times they get replaced are when something physically wears out and can't be repaired.  IOW, I haven't found a wireless mouse that doesn't suck.   

[Bassman59]

Mine lasted 2 years, but still, for a premium product that once was $100, that's not acceptable.

Dunno if it's something you'd like but the Kensington Expert Mouse trackballs are pretty great and are still $100. I have one at home and one at the office, both are seriously nearing 15 years of daily use and they still rock.

To clean you just take the ball out and wipe all of the grunge out.

Reprogram them so (if you're right handed) the LMB is the lower left button and the RMB is the upper right, just where your fingers normally rest. Make the upper left your middle mouse button.

Logitech stuff is just crap. I have one of their fancy wireless remotes that is no longer supported. My wife had one of their "solar" wireless keyboards, which use an internal rechargeable 2032-style battery but even with replacing that battery the keyboard stops working.

[SiliconWizard]

If you want something robust and not grossly overpriced, don't go for wireless crap.
Use a good wired mouse. My current one is a Roccat Kone pure, which works well for pretty much anything.
I've tried a lot of mice over the years, including wireless ones. I've never found a single wireless mouse that was worth it. Always ended up getting rid of them.

[tautech]

Yeah battery life can be the killer for wireless but I see that new Logitech Trackman has a rechargeable Li-Po 500mAh battery that presumably still works while charging.
Apparently up to 4 months use without recharge.

[Ranayna]

Logitech M705. Can't say for sure how long I have had mine but seems like forever. Even batteries last 3 years which is pretty good accomplishment.

The M705 is, or rather was, a good mouse. I especially loved the third side button that you could use by pressing down with the knuckle of your thumb. I used that one for middle mouse button, since i often have the trouble of accidentally scrolling when clicking the mousewheel.
But Logitech in their infinite wisdom decided to get rid of that button on newer releases of the M705 

And to be fair, that one as well has or had reliability issues. I had two that broke after between 1 and 2 years of daily office use. One even broke before the original batteries ran out 
I'm on my third M705 now (i just love the format as a good compromise between size and usability), and I am still sorely missing that button.
But also, not bluetooth.

On my private gaming mouse (cabled G500s) i already replaced the microswitches once. It was easy to do with a desoldering gun (stupid interposer board with soldered 2 by 5 header), but removing the gilders was destructive.

As far as i know, Logitech is the only manufacturer that offers that switchable mousewheel.

[Ian.M]

Its the nuisance factor of the cord that keeps many of us on wireless.  e.g. at the bench, the keyboard lives in a keyboard draw to protect it from solder splatter and general crud, (heck, the mouse goes into the keyboard draw before messy jobs), and keeping the mouse mat clear of clutter is sometimes challenging.  If I had a mouse cord running to the back of the bench it would be a lot worse, tangling with test leads & what have you.

 I *NEED* a five button mouse as I make heavy use of per-application mouse macros^* for most of the programs I regularly use, and am mostly ambidextrous so strongly prefer a mouse that doesn't have an excessively handed 'ergonomic' shape.  I can cope with paired buttons 4 & 5 on the side that fall under my left little finger rather than my right thumb so don't need a fully left handed mouse. 

Wireless device dongle proliferation isn't major issue - just tape a dollar store four port hub on the end of an extender lead to the underside of your desk (assuming its not metal topped), and the devices are closer to their receivers.  If you don't need the extra range, tape the hub to the back of the host.  Bluetooth, (or some sort of cross-brand 'unifying' receiver) would be nice but is far from essential except perhaps for laptop and tablet users.

My requirements don't really leave much choice at the affordable end of the price range.  If I find a five button mouse I can stand, I usually buy an identical spare as soon as I've used it for a month or two, then resign myself to maintenance sessions every six months or so to try to keep them working smoothly as long as I can.

However its the lack of quality and common sense design as you go up the price range that's worrying.  Using limited life non-replaceable membrane switches, and mechanical encoders for the wheel should be the domain of dollar store mice not the higher end mice they frequently appear in.  Gliders should be replaceable standard diameter Teflon rods push-fitted into internally fluted holes and *NOT* over the case screws.

Maybe its time for an OSHW 'mouse for life' project, with replaceable sensors, buttons, various power and connection options and a range of 3D printable shells.  Once there's a viable prototype that's compact enough and not too battery hungry, maybe do a kickstarter for the main board with a range of shell, sensor and connection options. Personally, I'd be holding out for a customisable 7 button mouse, with a pair of thumb buttons on each side that could be mapped to 5 button mode for either left or right hands or as HID keyboard buttons for OSes that don't have decent multi-button mouse support, and a IBM 'Trackpoint' style nub stick^# instead of a tilt/scrollwheel.  Others no doubt would prefer an optical encoder wheel with force sensing tilt.  An optional real middle button, instead of or as well as 'wheel click' would also be great.

* Using X-Mouse Button Control as I have low tolerance for Logitech (and other vendor) crapware.

# I always found Trackpoints to be a PITA for CAD etc. where you need pixel resolution + the ability to go straight in any direction, but they would have made a very nice scrollwheel,  I regret I never 'met' the IBM mouse that had one on it.

[rsjsouza]

Logitech V470 that gets occasional use but is very well built. it is small for my hands but compact.
Logitech LX8 that takes 8+ hours of use daily - about 7~8 years of use by now.
Logitech M510 that takes 6~8 hours of use weekly - about 6~7 years of use by now.

[mc172]

I really rate Logitech in general. I've had my Logitech MX Master 2S for 3.5 years now at work and no issues. Someone I work with has had a Logitech Performance Mouse MX for about 7 years and no problems. I'd know because they're quite vocal.

[MrMobodies]

I have been using and buying used MK and EX 100 series Logitech mouse/keyboards on Ebay and clean them up when I discovered many years ago that they are reliable and have lasted so long and only one mouse had a intermittent dodgy wheel. They don't have that rubber stuff all over it that becomes sticky and I can join and unjoin to any receiver of the same type by pressing the button on them rather the Logitech connect and Unify utility. The wired receivers on the MK series have caps lock and num lock lights which is good for a desktop setup. One issue is that I think it is infrared and reflections from glass or glossy surfaces under low light can sometimes cause problems and another on the MK keyboards they have a small back button on the left of the keyboard that can sometimes to be pressed.

[Jeroen3]

Did you look at the MX Master yet? I have two of them. Bluetooth and Logitech anywhere.
Battery last about two weeks on a charge.
Scroll wheel is amazing.
Horizontal scroll works shit in windows.

[Kilrah]

I wonder what you're doing with your mice. I've had several Logitech mice over the years, and never wore out a switch on any of them. In fact only one of them really broke, my G400 that got daily use for about 6 years and it's the cable that failed from repeated flex (and the glide pads were basically gone too).

One I just stopped using becasue it was one with the old RF system that didn't deal well with increasing number of 2.4GHz stuff around, but that was >10 years ago.`

Previous to that I had a keyboard/mouse combo that also lasted 6 years or so - mouse was still working but keyboard keys were worn out and starting to squeak, and peripherals start becoming really filthy after that long anyway.

My MX Anywhere 2 (not S) might get replaced soon but it still works perfectly, it's just completely trashed from carrying in my backpack for 4 years. And it's a pain for some software becasue it has no middle click, replacing it with the switch for that stupid (to me) frictionless thing. Was that changed in the 2s?

[Kilrah]

The small button beneath the wheel is middle click. It's by default Task View, but if you use Logitech's app, you can reassign it to middle click.

Unfortunately I've been using the button in that location as "close current window" for 15 years, so I'm so used to it I just can't repurpose it, the loss of the wheel press is really direct.
I've been reprogramming both side scrolling directions on the wheel to middle click and that works, but it's still super annoying when going back and forth between that when out of the office and normal wheel press at the desk, you end up always having the wrong reflex for the mouse you're using.

And yes, all Logitech mice suck, at least that's what I observed. FYI, I play CS:GO for ~1.5 hrs per day, so that easily doubled left clicks compared to most people's 8 hour usage.

Unfortunately all the others I've used suck even more 
I've tried another pretty expensive gaming mouse recently and it seems the people who designed it have no idea how hands work because the shape is always "rounded" in the same direction, there is no "grip" so it always slips off your hand when you lift it 

Logitech have a pretty good support though, and I don't know where you are but here they are known to often replace stuff for free even when out of warranty.

[Kilrah]

Good luck, I find those Apple mice to be the worst around. Often some dead zone (not sure whether that's casued by the mous or the OS though) and I don't like at all the lack of "feedback" from physical controls. But you like the freewheeling scrollwheel so it might be ok with you, I like my clicks.

[Jeroen3]

...

To my experience, every single Logitech fail in two years, give or take. Including high end gaming series and high end office series and high end mobile series.

I bought mine in August 2015. Two of them, one for work and one at home.
They both still work great. The rubbers on the side are a bit worn, but what do you expect with such high use.

[SiliconWizard]

I find those Apple mice to be the worst around. Often some dead zone (not sure whether that's casued by the mous or the OS though) and I don't like at all the lack of "feedback" from physical controls. But you like the freewheeling scrollwheel so it might be ok with you, I like my clicks.

Same here.

[Richard Crowley]

My problem with Bluetooth mice is that they lose the RF link frequently.
Sometimes several times in a week.  Sometimes it would work for 2-3 weeks.
To restore functionality, I have to "remove" the mouse and then re-add it.   

[FreddieChopin]

Try some A4Tech office mouses, they're excellent value and if you get any genetic matter on them (happens  ) it's cheaper to replace then Logitech.

[r0d3z1]

Did you look at the MX Master yet? I have two of them. Bluetooth and Logitech anywhere.

I vote for MX Master, Bluetooth lag sometimes but Logitech unifying works quite well.

[BBBbbb]

Logitech RF receivers have a know vulnerability, but chances of somebody using it on a regular home user are close to zero...
But what's worrying is Logitechs unwillingness to properly address it for more than 2 years now IIRC. Halfass patches that failed to properly handle it...
logitech is even banned from some more security aware companies...

In terms of reliability and battery life, it's #1 IMO when it comes to mouses. Their keyboards have not set themselves apart from other manufacturers as well as mouses.   

[tautech]

In terms of reliability and battery life, it's #1 IMO when it comes to mouses. Their keyboards have not set themselves apart from other manufacturers as well as mouses.

Yet I threw away the wireless Logitech mouse that came bundled with a wireless Logitech keyboard and this one has been great. Mouse chewed batteries but this keyboard is great.
Been using a wired Trackman ever since.

[AngusBeef]

I wonder what you're doing with your mice. I've had several Logitech mice over the years, and never wore out a switch on any of them. In fact only one of them really broke, my G400 that got daily use for about 6 years and it's the cable that failed from repeated flex (and the glide pads were basically gone too).

One I just stopped using becasue it was one with the old RF system that didn't deal well with increasing number of 2.4GHz stuff around, but that was >10 years ago.`

Previous to that I had a keyboard/mouse combo that also lasted 6 years or so - mouse was still working but keyboard keys were worn out and starting to squeak, and peripherals start becoming really filthy after that long anyway.

My MX Anywhere 2 (not S) might get replaced soon but it still works perfectly, it's just completely trashed from carrying in my backpack for 4 years. And it's a pain for some software becasue it has no middle click, replacing it with the switch for that stupid (to me) frictionless thing. Was that changed in the 2s?

YES! This! I've got 4 Logitech wireless mice, two for almost a decade, and have moved across the country 5 times so they end up tossed in a box. I abuse the hell out of my Logitech's and have yet to have a single failure.

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

[ebastler]

My problem with Bluetooth mice is that they lose the RF link frequently.
Sometimes several times in a week.  Sometimes it would work for 2-3 weeks.
To restore functionality, I have to "remove" the mouse and then re-add it.   

I have a related problem, on two "Microsoft Sculpt Comfort" Bluetooth mice, which I use on two different laptop computers (both Win 10). The connection drops, roughly once a day. I don't have to re-add them as a Bluetooth device though, just quickly switch the mouse off and on again.

Annoying, but the feel of the Microsoft mouse is otherwise so good that I am sticking with them. (Have had them for 3 years or so.) Nice and heavy, and the buttons and scroll wheels still perform without any glitches. I prefer the Bluetooth connection since it does not block a USB port, which are not plentiful on either of my two computers.

If anyone has an idea how to avoid that problem, I would be much obliged! I have already disabled the "power saving" mode on the BT device, that didn't help.

[rsjsouza]

Get very close to the mouse; perhaps there is a small voice saying: "Sorry to interrupt, but this is important. Your mouse is running an outdated version of Windows 7." 

[rrinker]

 I've mostly given up on wireless mice for static desktop computers. And about had it with Logitech. Though my main desktop has a Logitech "gaming" mouse I've had for 7+ year now that shows no signs of switch issues in any of the buttons. Maybe 6 years ago, Logitech made a smaller wireless version for laptops. I picked one up, mainly because it had the weighted scroll wheel with the selectable detent which is why I likes the mouse on my desktop. In no less than 3 months, before the batteries even wore out, the left button stopped working, unless I pushed REALLY hard. Supposedly fixable by building up a little bump on the bottom of the plastic so it fully depresses the microswitch. Yeah. So I went to Walmart and got their cheapest wireless mouse with a scroll wheel, I think it was $17. I've had that mouse ever since - nearly 6 years now. A pair of AAA batteries lasts 6-9 months, and I use my laptop every day, and I can't stand touchpads so I ALWAYS use the mouse. And when they are dead - they are dead, read under 1 volt with no load on a voltmeter. And this thing still chugs on, all the buttons work, it gets tossed in my laptop bag and banged around. The stuck on slippery sliders on the bottom are long gone.And it's not horrible to hold - it IS a compact design to be portable, not a big giant thing for someone with large hands. The only downside is that it is the more basic sensor style so it will not work on glass or glass topped tables - the last few places I've been for work, I've had to use a sheet of paper or something for a mouse pad because the tables int he hotel rooms have a layer of glass on top of the 'wood'

 But for the price of the Logitech, I could buy 3 of these cheap ones - only thing is, i haven't had to replace it.

[tooki]

I wonder what you're doing with your mice. I've had several Logitech mice over the years, and never wore out a switch on any of them. In fact only one of them really broke, my G400 that got daily use for about 6 years and it's the cable that failed from repeated flex (and the glide pads were basically gone too).

I was wondering this, too!! In almost 30 years of owning a computer, I've never had a mouse break on me (though one single one had a USB cord failure). Several of those mice have been Logitech, be they Logitech branded, or Logitech OEM (many early Apple mice were actually built by Logitech.) The mouse I have on my Mac Pro now is a Logitech Performance MX (predecessor to the MX Master) that I've had for close to 10 years now.

I hazard to claim that if you're consistently wearing out mice after just 2 years, the problem lies with you, Blueskull, and not with the mice!

As a computer support professional at various points in my career, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most mice do not break.

[thm_w]

Not wireless but worth mentioning, they've started socketing the switches so its easier to replace now  :

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG_Gladius/

I hazard to claim that if you're consistently wearing out mice after just 2 years, the problem lies with you, Blueskull, and not with the mice!

As a computer support professional at various points in my career, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most mice do not break.

2-3 years is fairly typical, its completely normal for these switches to wear out.
Lets say you click 10,000 times per day, thats 3.6 million per year. The standard D2F-01F is rated 1M cycles, with some versions up to 10M+ I believe (but hard to know if you've got the genuine one or what teh actual difference is, and if it matters in non-perfect conditions): https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/omron-electronics-inc-emc-div/D2F-01F/SW502-ND/83266

[CatalinaWOW]

It would be interesting to put a counter on the mouse clicks.  My finger gets tired after a long session of clicking around, and one job I had that required a couple of weeks of intensive clicking left me with a sore finger that took months to improve and forced me to mouse left handed for a while.

I believe that most of us hit far less than 10,000 clicks a day, but have never seen any statistics.  I do suspect that gaming which blueskull mentioned is an intense user of finger presses since I believe that that is used to trigger all of the weapon use that permeates most games.

[tooki]

Not wireless but worth mentioning, they've started socketing the switches so its easier to replace now  :

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG_Gladius/

I hazard to claim that if you're consistently wearing out mice after just 2 years, the problem lies with you, Blueskull, and not with the mice!

As a computer support professional at various points in my career, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most mice do not break.

2-3 years is fairly typical, its completely normal for these switches to wear out.
Lets say you click 10,000 times per day, thats 3.6 million per year. The standard D2F-01F is rated 1M cycles, with some versions up to 10M+ I believe (but hard to know if you've got the genuine one or what teh actual difference is, and if it matters in non-perfect conditions): https://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/omron-electronics-inc-emc-div/D2F-01F/SW502-ND/83266

Except that it’s just... not. As I said, I have extensive experience in computer support, and no, people just aren’t replacing their mice every 2-3 years. Few people need to. Mice usually outlast the computers they ship with.

A quick search seems to indicate that typical business use averages about 7500 clicks per week, with a peak of about 3500 daily. Other reports indicated a lot more (e.g. some Mac users counting 5000 or even 7000 per day), which I assume is due to being particularly mouse-heavy work like graphic design.

Either way, they’re not doing that 365 days a year as you counted, but rather about 220 (5 days x 4 weeks x 11 months, to account for weekends and vacation). So if we take some middle ground like 3000 clicks per day, that’s 660K in a year. A company like Logitech isn’t going to be putting in a 1-million-click switch in that case, because it’d wear out before the statutory warranty in many countries.

Gaming could be an area where things wear out more, due to far higher numbers of clicks, and probably much more, um, energetic clicking in the heat of battle.

But that would fall squarely into my explanation of it being a PEBKAC and not a product flaw.

[thm_w]

Except that it’s just... not. As I said, I have extensive experience in computer support, and no, people just aren’t replacing their mice every 2-3 years. Few people need to. Mice usually outlast the computers they ship with.

The kind of people using this forum and people requesting computer support from you, to me, are unlikely to be the same kind of people.

A quick search seems to indicate that typical business use averages about 7500 clicks per week, with a peak of about 3500 daily. Other reports indicated a lot more (e.g. some Mac users counting 5000 or even 7000 per day), which I assume is due to being particularly mouse-heavy work like graphic design.

Either way, they’re not doing that 365 days a year as you counted, but rather about 220 (5 days x 4 weeks x 11 months, to account for weekends and vacation). So if we take some middle ground like 3000 clicks per day, that’s 660K in a year. A company like Logitech isn’t going to be putting in a 1-million-click switch in that case, because it’d wear out before the statutory warranty in many countries.

Gaming could be an area where things wear out more, due to far higher numbers of clicks, and probably much more, um, energetic clicking in the heat of battle.

But that would fall squarely into my explanation of it being a PEBKAC and not a product flaw.

- This is not business use we are talking about.
- Blueskull plays games, probably is using his computer close to 365 days per year (as do other people here). 10k is not unreasonable.
- Its not PEBKAC in the slightest when you are using the item as intended.
- Switch rating may not meet actual performance seen, there are often claims that the chinese Omrons are of lower quality than the Japan made versions. So who knows if 10M is a realistic number.

IF that is the case that it fails prematurely, then it can be seen as a flaw, however, if it meets the 10M rating (which could be 3 years of use at the lower end) then I would be happy.

[tooki]

PEBKAC means “problem exists between keyboard and chair”, i.e. the user. It doesn’t necessarily mean he’s using them wrong, merely that the way he uses them is the cause, which is what I said.

As for who the users were... well, you have no way of knowing, do you? But FWIW, the majority were graphic designers, so people who tended to use mice above average and keyboards correspondingly less. Not that I think the users of this forum are likely to exhibit fundamentally different usage patterns.

10K may be possible, but it’s definitely far above normal use. No ifs, ands, or buts about that.

[CatalinaWOW]

Another data bit consistent with what tooki is saying.

https://www.digitalcitizen.life/how-many-key-presses-and-mouse-clicks-you-perform-day

This individual has logged an average of 10,300 clicks a day.  Sounds very supportive of the initial 10,000 click per day hypothesis.  But he goes on to report that on days when he is gaming he does nearly 49,000 clicks a day.  To bring his overall average down to 10,300 his non-gaming days must have a really low average number of clicks.

I have a niece who spends every waking moment gaming.  She is only employed part time so she probably averages over five days a week gaming, and possibly exceeds the referenced individuals 49,000 clicks a day.  That is over 250,000 clicks a week and possibly as many as 12 million a year.  Instead of dissing these mice we should be amazed at how long they are surviving.    I doubt that blueskull clocks that many, he does too many productive things for that to happen, but he is probably exceeding a very respectable switch life in his use pattern.

My usage involves schematic capture, spreadsheets, coding, image editing, word processing, email, web crawling and some limited play of logic type games.  The most intensive mouse clicking comes in the image editing, and even there it averages only a a dozen or two clicks per minute.  So on days I am doing that I might rack up a thousand clicks per hour, but I never put in more than half a day at a time at that intensity. So five thousand clicks a day is probably a high end estimate for me, with normal activity right in line with the 7000 or so a week that tooki found.  My mouse life has been reflective of that.  Since the rubber covered steel balls and rollers went away I have had only one mouse failure, which was on the left click switch. 

[KC0PPH]

3DConnection Cad Mouse Mini is the bees knees if you are doing any type of cad work.

Im sure it would be just fine for gaming as well. I have the smaller one, as the professional seems big in my hands.

[rrinker]

 Wouldn't help my mobile Logitech problem - the SWITCH is just fine. It's the plastic numb on the bottom of the button casting that wore off in a little over a month, and does not depress the plunger of the microswitch enough to trigger it. The switch itself, if presses with something, works just fine. After such a short time, it actually had very few operations on it.

[Black Phoenix]

3DConnection Cad Mouse Mini is the bees knees if you are doing any type of cad work.

Im sure it would be just fine for gaming as well. I have the smaller one, as the professional seems big in my hands.

Currently in JD.com they have a promotion of that Cad Mouse plus the Dial and both with carrying cases. I thing it was CN¥1700.

[LeonR]

Logitech seem to have trouble with mouse switches for some time now. I had a MX500, one f the first to take ergonomics into account (and one of the first to be used by professional gamers) that had no switch issues whatsoever even after some 10 yeats of use to the point where the shell would have discoloration on the most frictioned parts. Back then, Logi issued Zippy (Taiwan) microswitches inside their mice.

I've had double click issues only on a G500, after a paltry one and half year. Good thing it had a 2 year warranty, it took just 10 days for the whole RMA process (new mouse was dispatched from USA to Brazil). One of best supports I've ever used.

There's a pretty technical and detailed video about thia problem:

[MyHeadHz]

Did you look at the MX Master yet? I have two of them. Bluetooth and Logitech anywhere.
Battery last about two weeks on a charge.
Scroll wheel is amazing.
Horizontal scroll works shit in windows.

To my experience, every single Logitech fail in two years, give or take. Including high end gaming series and high end office series and high end mobile series.

Unless it's stupidly expensive, I usually just buy the one with the highest price tag, but apparently that doesn't directly translate to quality.

I'm now seriously considering to keep using the kit mouse from my Mac (Apple Magic Mouse 2), and I've heard good news from my friends (two of them, each having one from 2016, both are working fine to this day).

So far, I miss nothing, except for CS:GO. For some more casual games and RTS games, it handles them fine.

As far as I can tell, all of the current big players in gaming (Logitech, Razer, etc) use terrible switches, parts, and plating without exception.  I keep having to go back to basic featureless Microsoft mice simply because they are consistent and reliable.  Apple mice are good as well.

I know of no quality IBM or Cherry MX equivalents for mice.  There are feature mice with crap quality, or quality mice with no features.  If anyone knows of an actual quality brand of mice, other than basic mice, please do tell.

EDIT: I watched that video LeonR posted, and it has a great deal of information that explains pretty much everything thoroughly.  I will probably end up buying some replacement switches like the ones he shows to repair some old mice, as well as avoid problem mice in the future.

[LeonR]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

[Black Phoenix]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

Wrong, even by keeping the outside design of the mouse, they changed the switches to the Omron D2FC-F-7N, the ones that develop double clicking after a while (see all the other mouses they have with the same switches and what most of users report on the r/mousereviews about double clicking).

For what I know there are other manufacturer making mouse switches that is being used in some other brands, mainly Kailh that have a 1 by 1 design compatible with that Omron and until now I didn't saw reports of them developing double clicking in 6 months. Or if you can get the Zippy ones, the ones that for years equiped mouses without making them double click after 6 months, that's also great.

Also if someone can get the D2F-01 and D2F-01-F they are Japan Made, pin compatible and better reliability that the Chinese  D2FC-F-7N. The problem is that the Japanese ones are not manufactured anymore, having been replaced by the Chinese made ones, that develop the problem.

In my opinion for me the solution is a switch that is Optical (Razer is using some optical switches in one of their own mice, the Razer Viper and some keyboard already also have them, the Opto-Mechanical one used on the Razer Huntsman) or halo effect ones like the solution used in keyboard made by Wooting, the Wooting One, the Steelseries Apex Pro or even the ones being developed by Input Club, the SILO Beam Spring Switches for their new coming Analogue keyboard, the Input Club Keystone.

[LeonR]

If you are willing to use a corded mouse and still wanna give Logitech a go, I'd try the MX518 Legendary. Since it's based on an older project, I can't see they messing around too much and making it unreliable.

Wrong, even by keeping the outside design of the mouse, they changed the switches to the Omron D2FC-F-7N, the ones that develop double clicking after a while (see all the other mouses they have with the same switches and what most of users report on the r/mousereviews about double clicking).

For what I know there are other manufacturer making mouse switches that is being used in some other brands, mainly Kailh that have a 1 by 1 design compatible with that Omron and until now I didn't saw reports of them developing double clicking in 6 months. Or if you can get the Zippy ones, the ones that for years equiped mouses without making them double click after 6 months, that's also great.

Also if someone can get the D2F-01 and D2F-01-F they are Japan Made, pin compatible and better reliability that the Chinese  D2FC-F-7N. The problem is that the Japanese ones are not manufactured anymore, having been replaced by the Chinese made ones, that develop the problem.

In my opinion for me the solution is a switch that is Optical (Razer is using some optical switches in one of their own mice, the Razer Viper and some keyboard already also have them, the Opto-Mechanical one used on the Razer Huntsman) or halo effect ones like the solution used in keyboard made by Wooting, the Wooting One, the Steelseries Apex Pro or even the ones being developed by Input Club, the SILO Beam Spring Switches for their new coming Analogue keyboard, the Input Club Keystone.

I'm using a G400s equipped with those 7N switches for almost 7 years now (imported it when it was just released back in 2013) and haven't experienced any issues at all. And I play a lot of FPS/click intensive games. The switches aren't the sole culprits.

There are other manufacturers of such D-class microswitches that are also compatible, such as Honeywell, Cherry, Huano, TTC, etc.

You should watch the video I posted above.

[Black Phoenix]

I'm using a G400s equipped with those 7N switches for almost 7 years now (imported it when it was just released back in 2013) and haven't experienced any issues at all. And I play a lot of FPS/click intensive games. The switches aren't the sole culprits.

There are other manufacturers of such D-class microswitches that are also compatible, such as Honeywell, Cherry, Huano, TTC, etc.

You should watch the video I posted above.

Ok after having seen the video, yes I agree with you, the switches are not the only ones to cause that. For that I apologised since I didn't saw it that way and talked about something without knowing the full picture.

Still I keep the last of my post when I mentioned another kind of switches technologies.

[Mechatrommer]

since the persistence of the thread let me chime in... i'm a fan of wireless keyboard + mouse set, i never look back to wired setup, so when i buy a mouse i buy the keyboard too as a set. i once owned a4tech and now on Gigabyte GK-K7500 for many years, after countless number of fix and repair on mouse switches and keyboard flex traces. its less ideal for me since the keyboard is ANSI type (small) "Enter" key (with "\" key on top), as a casual programmer and having learnt muscle memory from old bar type (big) Enter key, i find myself always hitting the "\" key instead of "Enter", so the next time i search for new wireless set, it should be at least Bar type or ISO type. i have 2 wireless set ready in stock bought at separate time span (one is Genius SlimStar 8010, one is HK6500 China), because i find this Gigabyte soon will one day FUBAR. but i got stuck with this less ideal GK-K7500's why? because of the fucking rotary sound/volume wheel, its just fucking good i cant get rid of it, my soul will be dependent on it when watching movie or listen to youtube or songs, so i'm using it to the last blood.

its not produced anymore so i struggled to find new/latest model that has the same of good as the 7500's wheel (ISO layout) to no success, however expensive the model brand is. so i just buy the closest i can get to my desire/spec (big/ISO Enter key and a volume wheel) now vol+ and vol- keys is pretty common, less good than a wheel, buts its better than nothing. remember i already have 2 sets in stock (ISO layout) but i still hesitated to get rid of this old K7500 due to its volume wheel (albeit less than ideal for programmer/typist ANSI layout). brand like Logitech doesnt provide ISO layout so they are thrown away out of radar, ironically the best brand that i can find closest to my spec is China cheapy wireless brand (attached) should be good for game (colored AWSD) and has vol+ vol- keys. although, many china wireless brand still provide ANSI layout nevermind the destructible mouse, i never found one. the fix is opening it up, tearing the microswitches apart and cleaning them myself, and glue them back together is the best i can get, but it probably works only for me, everybody else maybe different, so ymmv. so i think, when choosing a mouse, just choose whatever you can enjoy for a shortwhile, and when they die, just buy another one, they are cheap like dirt and expendable.



(ps: an owner of Gigabyte dedicated mouse ECO600 and 6 sets of PS/2 keyboards and mouses in stock beside those 2 wireless sets.. to prepare for the end of the world )

[wraper]

There's a pretty technical and detailed video about thia problem:

Guy is completely wrong about D2FC-F-7N not being microload switch (wrong switch for application) because there is no "01" in part number. D2FC and D2F are different series, thus that datasheet he shows is not really relevant.

[NiHaoMike]

A Bluetooth mouse and PCIe Bluetooth card bypasses USB latency, but now you have Bluetooth latency...

[jonovid]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

[ebastler]

I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.

My TV set from LG came with a "magic remote", which does allow you to control a mouse-style pointer on the screen by pointing and tilting the remote control. It works quite differently from what you describe though, simply via accelerometers/gravitation sensors inside the remote unit. It carries a "Freespace" logo, hence must be this company's solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest_Labs#Technology_and_products

I imagine that's easier to implement in a robust way, as it does not depend on environmental lighting, size and distance of the screen etc.

[jonovid]

I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.

My TV set from LG came with a "magic remote", which does allow you to control a mouse-style pointer on the screen by pointing and tilting the remote control. It works quite differently from what you describe though, simply via accelerometers/gravitation sensors inside the remote unit. It carries a "Freespace" logo, hence must be this company's solution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillcrest_Labs#Technology_and_products

I imagine that's easier to implement in a robust way, as it does not depend on environmental lighting, size and distance of the screen etc.

interesting
got this video yes that is it   

a video from 2012

[emece67]

.

[tszaboo]

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

These (also on their wireless incarnations) are the mices I've using for years. For some reason their buttons seem to fail even more frequently than those of other Logitech mices (now I have 3 useless units on the drawer), so now I'm using MX Master "traditional" devices.

Their buttons being longer lasting ones, these would be the best ever mices I've ever used.

Dont you have a soldering station?

[emece67]

.

[tooki]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

I’m not quite sure what to say... this is a problem that’s already been solved before, as in Kinect, Wii, etc. But also, IR radiation isn’t dangerous per se. The only reason infrared lasers can be dangerous is because a) you can’t see the beam, and b) lasers of even modest wattage can cause eye damage (but that’s regardless of wavelength).

Sony used a (red visible light) holographic laser projector in a few digital cameras back in the early 00’s, which cast a field of red crosshatches onto the subject in order to focus in very low light (even full darkness). So even using lasers it’s possible to point it at humans without danger, it just has to be low power. iPhones use infrared microdot projectors for Face ID. So your assumptions are simply... wrong. Not that I think a projected dot field is a sensible approach to a mouse.

[tautech]

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

These (also on their wireless incarnations) are the mices I've using for years. For some reason their buttons seem to fail even more frequently than those of other Logitech mices (now I have 3 useless units on the drawer), so now I'm using MX Master "traditional" devices.

Their buttons being longer lasting ones, these would be the best ever mices I've ever used.

Interesting.
Button failures on only the wireless models or USB corded models too ? 
The 2 USB Trackman the wife and I have used for years have been brilliant and would replace them with the same in an instant.

Send me a price for the 3 broken ones you have with shipping to NZ.
TIA

[SilverSolder]

Is there a mouse, preferably wireless, that does not double click or random click over years of use?
[...]

I use an old Logitech MX310...   got a few of them around.  One of them was used by the kids for playing computer games... the underside of the mouse is worn down to a smoothly polished surface with no feet etc. left!  The buttons must have millions of clicks behind them, and still all work...

The one on my desk here is super precise, fast, and a pleasure to use - it never glitches, ever.  Must be approaching 20 years of daily use, it has outlived several PCs, keyboards, and monitors!

They probably had to stop making them because they were putting themselves out of business...

They fetch truly stupid money on eBay...  I bought mine surplus for about $3 each.  I should have filled a warehouse, I could have retired on the proceeds!

[emece67]

.

[tautech]

OK, I feel ashamed now    I've ordered some Omron switches for replacement.

 

Got your PM, thanks and if you ever consider parting with 2 I'm still interested.

The left one is not thumb-driven (and much less comfortable).

Tried a Trackball once and the same time as my first try with a Trackman....Trackman ever since.

[jonovid]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

I’m not quite sure what to say... this is a problem that’s already been solved before, as in Kinect, Wii, etc. But also, IR radiation isn’t dangerous per se. The only reason infrared lasers can be dangerous is because a) you can’t see the beam, and b) lasers of even modest wattage can cause eye damage (but that’s regardless of wavelength).

Sony used a (red visible light) holographic laser projector in a few digital cameras back in the early 00’s, which cast a field of red crosshatches onto the subject in order to focus in very low light (even full darkness). So even using lasers it’s possible to point it at humans without danger, it just has to be low power. iPhones use infrared microdot projectors for Face ID. So your assumptions are simply... wrong. Not that I think a projected dot field is a sensible approach to a mouse.

it was a DIY project that got too expensive over time, and beyond my capability.
making a mess of the TV room, whenever I was working in it. 
yes your right if I had persisted. it may have just worked 
in the end, I settled for a buffet side table for the home entertainment system,
with a bluetooth mouse and keyboard. as technology had moved on , so now
cheap bluetooth USB adapter PC/console hand controllers with a 5 Meter range came available in 2018. 

Xbox Kinect micro dot projector

ok
the Xbox Kinect tracking system has a micro dot projector see video.

[Ed.Kloonk]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

[jonovid]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

can u do a Teardown on one? 

[perieanuo]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

you don't need this mumbo-jumbo for moving the cursor into your os.
look at cheap gyros for nvidia shield, I have one and it works great.
no infrared no x-rays no cryptonite, just the accelerometer inside your bluetooth toy and some sw/driver inside the os for moving the cursor

[perieanuo]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

[wraper]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

[SilverSolder]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

[wraper]

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

Frankly there is not so much issue with switches, rather with their usage without providing consistent pressure on the switch and very low wetting current. They could easily also use both NC and NO contacts in the switch for debounce and forever forget about double click issue. And to not cause excessive current drain in wireless mice, use pulsed voltage from MCU only when sampling inputs.
But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

[DulsecToupee]

I use Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless, it is enough for me.

[SilverSolder]

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

Frankly there is not so much issue with switches, rather with their usage without providing consistent pressure on the switch and very low wetting current. They could easily also use both NC and NO contacts in the switch for debounce and forever forget about double click issue. And to not cause excessive current drain in wireless mice, use pulsed voltage from MCU only when sampling inputs.
But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

[rsjsouza]

But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

Hey, at least it is not that sea of easily breakable plastic tabs and locks that cheaper manufacturers love to use and save hundreths of dollars per unit.

[wraper]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant. Actually I had this issue with all of my 3 last $100+ wireless Logitech mice. Issue started happening in 3 months to 1 year. Apparently this issue is not prominent with their cheap wired models because of much larger wetting current and probably longer debounce time. It's simply astonishing they did not fix the issue for more than a decade and apparently it only became worse. I buy their mice only because of Hyperscroll wheel feature which is not available from other manufacturers because it's patented.
Also I have suspicion that flux vapor gets into switches during soldering or something like that. Because I've seen some slight tarnishing in them. And hand soldered replacement switches of the same model generally last much longer before the same issue starts happening.

[Ed.Kloonk]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

Wow.

[Ed.Kloonk]

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

can u do a Teardown on one? 

Just for you, I can offer a peek of her with her top off.

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

[wraper]

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

It's because D2F is not an equivalent of D2FC series. They have larger plunger and longer travel distance.

[tautech]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

Congrats on saving your Trackman from the recycling. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

In the pet peeve thread. Would be interested to know if you have that same product over there where you are.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/your-pet-peeve-technical-or-otherwise/msg3252774/#msg3252774

Congrats on saving your Trackman from the recycling. 

 

[tautech]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

In the pet peeve thread. Would be interested to know if you have that same product over there where you are.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/your-pet-peeve-technical-or-otherwise/msg3252774/#msg3252774

Ah, OK just orange oil based cleaners.
Yeah we have a few based on that stuff and it strips grease and oils too.
Had a workshop hand cleaner based on orange oils and abrasive grits and was the best I've encountered.

Not much on the tools these days so I can get away with solvents and soap and the hands don't seem to mind the very occasional mistreatment. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

It's because D2F is not an equivalent of D2FC series. They have larger plunger and longer travel distance.

Spending a little time using the new switch, I'm thinking about plucking out the ones on the other desks. Night and day the tactile difference.

[tszaboo]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant.

I have a lot more problem with the plastics of the mouses. I dont think I ever had issue with the switches, although I always use wired mouse. So here is the history:
MX518: Plasitc logitech logo breaks into pieces. That is in the middle of the mouse, unusable.
G502: The rubberisation disintegrates, and collects dead skin, and looks disgusting continuously. Mouse wheel, wich is made out of some metal, paint wore off and it is rusting. And the wheel collects dead skin.
M500: Paint wears off. Why is it painted in the first place? Rubberisation is wearing off, after like 3 years of use. This one is for the office, so if I ask for a new one, they are just going to tell me it is perfectly working, and still better than the 10 year old crap that they are using.
But maybe I'm just asking for too much, a mouse should just disintegrate after 5 years of use.

[SilverSolder]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant.

I have a lot more problem with the plastics of the mouses. I dont think I ever had issue with the switches, although I always use wired mouse. So here is the history:
MX518: Plasitc logitech logo breaks into pieces. That is in the middle of the mouse, unusable.
G502: The rubberisation disintegrates, and collects dead skin, and looks disgusting continuously. Mouse wheel, wich is made out of some metal, paint wore off and it is rusting. And the wheel collects dead skin.
M500: Paint wears off. Why is it painted in the first place? Rubberisation is wearing off, after like 3 years of use. This one is for the office, so if I ask for a new one, they are just going to tell me it is perfectly working, and still better than the 10 year old crap that they are using.
But maybe I'm just asking for too much, a mouse should just disintegrate after 5 years of use.

I have ancient MX310 mouses here with hundreds of thousands of miles on them.  Yes, they are painted and some of them have worn paint on the buttons...   but to my mind, they represent the pinnacle of Logitech's achievements,  before they started "overdoing" everything and stopping offering high quality basic mouses without a million extra buttons etc.

[palpurul]

I almost always buy non-wireless gaming mouse. They are great PCB design.