AMD Ryzen 5900X Upgrade S**T SHOW

[EEVblog]

Follow along with the complete s**t show that this Micro ATX B450 Aorus M upgrade to a Ryzen 5900X machine became.
SPOILER: It didn't work.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Gee.

[EEVblog]

Even if I upgrade the MB to a B550, there is another potential shite-show with USB ports:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/kbr6zl/usb_issues_on_b550x570_motherboards/

[dave528]

This is, unfortunately, what happens alot with a) cheap motherboards, b) motherboards from Gigabyte, and c) AMD CPU's.  When using combo's like that.  You also tend to be forced to use water cooling to avoid the heatsink/RAM collision issue.

I've personally had problems with EVERY Gigabyte motherboard I've worked with.  The problems range from DOA to continuous power cycling.  They just are not designed to be high quality.  They are really (I think) designed to look good.

4 days ago I bought a new laptop and compared the Intel and AMD CPU's first.  What I figured out is that the AMD laptop processors are now lagging about 4 generations behind thier Intel counterparts for overall processing performance.  They do seem, however, to have nearly caught up in the power management realm.  (I settled on an i5-1035G2.  Nearly twice as fast as the laptop Ryzen 5 CPU.)

Anyway, with the laptop AMD CPU's being so slow, I would assume that their desktop chips are also lagging.  Remember the FX-series AMD CPU's?  They came out when Intel was transitioning to 4th gen Core, but they performed like a first gen Intel counterpart.  The only time an AMD processor can shine is when it is running software that is specifically optimized for it.  Otherwise everything happens more slowly.

And, no I'm not just trying to trash the AMD brand, I'm just relaying my personal experience with them.

And Gigabyte motherboards:  I say stay away at all costs!  (They were good in the 1990's, though.)

[ejeffrey]

Even if I upgrade the MB to a B550, there is another potential shite-show with USB ports:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/kbr6zl/usb_issues_on_b550x570_motherboards/

I believe this is now fixed: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16554/amd-set-to-roll-out-agesa-firmware-usb-fix-for-ryzen-coming-april

ASUS boards (and others) have the ability to update BIOS from USB flash drive without a CPU installed.  This is why.  It's not usually a problem if you buy a new board, they generally push the updated BIOS out into the channel pretty quickly when a new CPU launches, but its a problem if you get a board that has been floating around a while.  That's why AMD has the loaner program, but it kind of sucks to have to borrow a CPU.  I think that if they want to have long-lived sockets (which is great) they should mandate retail motherboards to have flashback support.  Especially since most B450 motherboards actually don't have enough flash to support all supported CPUs at once -- the newer flash version drop support for older chips to make room for the 5000 series.

[coromonadalix]

On my tuf b550 plus wifi ...  i must had at least 10 bios revisions since i've purchased it, from beta and officials ones

And yes  every brand should use an bios update usb port in 2021 ??

   

[mariush]

The issues with the bios updates on AM4 are simply caused by the success of the platform.
The first generation of Ryzen was only capable of working with 128 mbit (16 MB) bioses, it could only address that much.
Because of this majority of motherboards were sold with 128 mbit bioses and with new releases of ryzen processors and with new agesa updates (that also hold the security updates) the bioses got large enough that they had to drop support for pre-ryzen processors just to get all processors supported.
On some models they squeezed more cpus in the support list by simplifying the bios menus or converting them to grayscale / low color to reduce space used by icons and pictures inside bios.

When ryzen 3rd gen was launched, they supported bigger bioses and some motherboard manufacturers released updated models with 256 mbit bioses and others released new models with bigger bios chips.
For compatibility with the first gen chips, they still had to partition the bios into two sections, and use the first 128 mbit portion for the old generations that can only address the first 128 mbit.

A lot of motherboards these days offer BIOS Flashback , where you can update the bios without cpu installed.
It wasn't common, I think the first that implemented it were MSI. Nowadays, all brands have it on most of their boards.

I don't agree with the one above saying Gigabyte models are bad, maybe he had bad luck with them.
MSI had maybe a couple of badly designed B450 motherboards and their other b450 motherboards weren't so great in the vrm department but they redeemed themselves with the B550 series boards.
These days, only Asrock makes some subpar motherboard models that target the really low budget and they overheat, have undersized VRMs, few features  and all that.

You can see in the video below for the boards in the cheap range, that the Asus prime b550m was actually the hottest board when it comes to vrm ... in contrast the cheap gigabyte b550m ds3h could handle a stock 3950x at reasonable temperature.


anyway...

I posted this on the other thread with new video releases so pasting here and adding some stuff

re the amd 5900x video on eevblog2

The gigabyte b450m is ok, but the vrm is a bit weak, and the heatsink is kinda small... so that 5900x will heat up that significantly especially if you render videos or use the cpu for long periods of time.

So .. you could do the bios update - and you could probably find some local place or even some local person that watches your videos and may be willing to loan you a cpu - but you'd probably be better off buying a newer motherboard with a b550 chipset.

Asus boards are ok, but you often pay more for them... MSI boards with the B550 chipset are quite good, as long you don't get the cheapest in the lineup.




The Australians from Hardware Unboxed did a review of most b550 motherboards recently so if you care, check their videos

Cheaper range :



Mid-range



higher end

[wraper]

4 days ago I bought a new laptop and compared the Intel and AMD CPU's first.  What I figured out is that the AMD laptop processors are now lagging about 4 generations behind thier Intel counterparts for overall processing performance.  They do seem, however, to have nearly caught up in the power management realm.  (I settled on an i5-1035G2.  Nearly twice as fast as the laptop Ryzen 5 CPU.)

Anyway, with the laptop AMD CPU's being so slow, I would assume that their desktop chips are also lagging.  Remember the FX-series AMD CPU's?  They came out when Intel was transitioning to 4th gen Core, but they performed like a first gen Intel counterpart.  The only time an AMD processor can shine is when it is running software that is specifically optimized for it.  Otherwise everything happens more slowly.

What a load of bull.

[amyk]

The issues with the bios updates on AM4 are simply caused by the success of the platform.
The first generation of Ryzen was only capable of working with 128 mbit (16 MB) bioses, it could only address that much.
Because of this majority of motherboards were sold with 128 mbit bioses and with new releases of ryzen processors and with new agesa updates (that also hold the security updates) the bioses got large enough that they had to drop support for pre-ryzen processors just to get all processors supported.
On some models they squeezed more cpus in the support list by simplifying the bios menus or converting them to grayscale / low color to reduce space used by icons and pictures inside bios.

When ryzen 3rd gen was launched, they supported bigger bioses and some motherboard manufacturers released updated models with 256 mbit bioses and others released new models with bigger bios chips.
For compatibility with the first gen chips, they still had to partition the bios into two sections, and use the first 128 mbit portion for the old generations that can only address the first 128 mbit.

16MB just for a BIOS, and now 32MB, that's more RAM than my whole computer had in the early 90s... it's all EFI bloat. I don't know much about the AMD side but for Intel the only CPU-model-specific stuff in BIOS is microcode updates which AFAIK are few KB in size only.

[Rasz]

Dave Im guessing you assumed you can "just" build modern PC with zero research because you did it in the past Stuff moves fast, new gotchas every year. Even 5 year gap without keeping up is like lamp era EE trying to program microcontrollers/logic. Btw "upgrading" motherboard to higher numbers is a fools errand, modern "chipset" is just a PCIE connected Northbridge. Everything important is integrated inside CPU. pcie, ram, usb 3.0, sata, HD Audio, even RTC/SPI/I2C/SMBus and LPC are on die. You can make perfectly functional system with just an AMD CPU alone. Those CPUs are full SoCs now.

https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/amd-ryzen-3000-new-block-diagram-about-pcie-4-on-matisse-and-x570-chipset.html
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/packages/socket_am4#Pin_Description

xx20/50/70 is all market segmentation upsell bullshit. AMD still tries to pull a fast one linking CPU/CPU features to the number on the chipset. Sometimes giving up after a backlash :

https://www.itworldcanada.com/article/amd-zen-3-processors-will-be-incompatible-with-400-series-and-older-motherboards/430513
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-reverses-course-will-enable-zen-3-support-on-b450-and-x470-motherboards

other times just sticking a tip in like in the case of AMD Smart Access Memory totally requiring 500-series chipset despite being just a fancy marketing name for standard PCI Express Resizable BAR support. Already shipping disabled for 2 prior generations before being announced as 5000 exclusive. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/320548-amd-will-support-smart-access-memory-on-ryzen-3000-cpus-for-gaming

The bios chip size argument seems like another BS to me, you seriously cant fit some additional code in 16MB of bloated fancy graphical menu? please, this is classic planned obsolescence in action.

What I figured out is that the AMD laptop processors are now lagging about 4 generations behind thier Intel counterparts for overall processing performance.
I would assume that their desktop chips are also lagging

comedian or a troll?

[EEVblog]

So .. you could do the bios update - and you could probably find some local place or even some local person that watches your videos and may be willing to loan you a cpu - but you'd probably be better off buying a newer motherboard with a b550 chipset.

Yep, I'm getting a new Asus Tuf gaming B550 today on sale.

[bw2341]

If you bought all of this at a local brick-and-mortar store in one bundle, I'm surprised that they didn't warn you about needing to update the BIOS. Some stores even offer to do the upgrade for free to help close the sale. At least they should have done the upsell and got the service charge to do the upgrade for you.

The same goes for the cooler. Warning customers about pre-AM4 coolers being a poor fit should have been an easy upsell to a new AM4 compatible cooler. No store wants to see discounted open-box items come back because of an incompatibility.

[ejeffrey]

The issues with the bios updates on AM4 are simply caused by the success of the platform.
The first generation of Ryzen was only capable of working with 128 mbit (16 MB) bioses, it could only address that much.
Because of this majority of motherboards were sold with 128 mbit bioses and with new releases of ryzen processors and with new agesa updates (that also hold the security updates) the bioses got large enough that they had to drop support for pre-ryzen processors just to get all processors supported.
On some models they squeezed more cpus in the support list by simplifying the bios menus or converting them to grayscale / low color to reduce space used by icons and pictures inside bios.

When ryzen 3rd gen was launched, they supported bigger bioses and some motherboard manufacturers released updated models with 256 mbit bioses and others released new models with bigger bios chips.
For compatibility with the first gen chips, they still had to partition the bios into two sections, and use the first 128 mbit portion for the old generations that can only address the first 128 mbit.

16MB just for a BIOS, and now 32MB, that's more RAM than my whole computer had in the early 90s... it's all EFI bloat. I don't know much about the AMD side but for Intel the only CPU-model-specific stuff in BIOS is microcode updates which AFAIK are few KB in size only.

My understanding is that AGESA is basically a full BIOS sans UI, and that a motherboard BIOS image will basically include AGESA packages for each generation of chip it supports.  It provides an API that the platform BIOS creates the UI around plus adds their own settings for motherboard features such as motherboard IO such as network interfaces, fans and sensors, and of course the all important RGB lighting. 

This may be inefficient, but it means that motherboard manufacturers can update support for new processor generations with relatively minor changes since the heavy lifting is done byt he AGESA blob that AMD produces.  It's a modern day miracle that AMD can get 3rd party motherboard manufacturers to spend *any* time providing updates that allow their customers to *avoid* buying a new motherboard.

I think it is also a bit misleading to say that "the only CPU model specific stuff is microcode."  Recent Intel motherboards / chipsets typically only support one or maybe two very similar generations of processor.  There is absolutely a lot more in the firmware that talks to the CPU.  But a given motherboard only has to target a single architecture.

[mariush]

Everything important is integrated inside CPU. pcie, ram, usb 3.0, sata, HD Audio, even RTC/SPI/I2C/SMBus and LPC are on die. You can make perfectly functional system with just an AMD CPU alone. Those CPUs are full SoCs now.

xx20/50/70 is all market segmentation upsell bullshit. AMD still tries to pull a fast one linking CPU/CPU features to the number on the chipset. Sometimes giving up after a backlash :

https://www.itworldcanada.com/article/amd-zen-3-processors-will-be-incompatible-with-400-series-and-older-motherboards/430513
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-reverses-course-will-enable-zen-3-support-on-b450-and-x470-motherboards

other times just sticking a tip in like in the case of AMD Smart Access Memory totally requiring 500-series chipset despite being just a fancy marketing name for standard PCI Express Resizable BAR support. Already shipping disabled for 2 prior generations before being announced as 5000 exclusive. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/320548-amd-will-support-smart-access-memory-on-ryzen-3000-cpus-for-gaming

Some CPUs can indeed function without a "chipset", but AM4 needs one, at the very least for some "glue logic"
For example Threadripper's System-on-chip die has everything so that a chipset is not needed, but AM4 processors still need the chipset.

Either way, the processors do have a few peripherals, a couple sata ports, a few usb ports, pci-e lanes going to a m.2 connector, but the chipset enhances the platform.
The chipset connects to the cpu using a pci-e 3.0 x4  (or pci-e 4.0 x4) link and has sata and usb controllers and creates additional pci-e lanes which can be routed to pci-e slots or extra m.2 connectors or peripherals.

For B450 chipset, there's 6 pci-e lanes, for x570 there's 8 pci-e lanes.

x570 is more or less adapted from the io die of threadripper, and supports pci-e 4.0 and has a higher power consumption, therefore if you do use pci-e 4.0 peripherals, it needs to be cooled, so most motherboards have a fan.

B550 is different chip, only supports pci-e 3.0  (lanes from cpu remain pci-e 4.0 , lanes with go to 1-2 pci-e x16 slots for video card and m.2 connector) and doesn't need active cooling.

B520 is a cut down version of b550 with artificial restrictions and limitations, but it's targeted at budget/office motherboards, and nobody lies to you about what you're getting.. not everyone needs 10 usb ports, 6 sata , more than 2 slots of ram, overkill vrm .. a well optimized 3-4 phase vrm with decent power stages absolutely can power  a 65w tdp cpu with integrated graphics for an office pc, especially if the chipset limits / disables overclocking. Not everyone needs a 12-14 phase vrm on their motherboard.

pci-e 4.0 support was artificially restricted on B450 and boards before B5xx chipsets because they couldn't guarantee it would work well with all previously released b450 motherboards.

pci-e 4.0 requires better signal quality, the trace lengths must be a certain maximum length, it's said that even the pcb material is improved on b5xx motherboards to support pci-e 4.0 properly. A lot of decent B550 motherboards moved to using 6 layers or more, to separate the pci-e routing and the memory traces from other layers.

as for that smart access feature not being supported on pre b5xx boards ... again, it has to do with how much validation, how much testing, how much you add to the agesa, how many bios updates you add ... how much pain in the a** you get for something that most users with those boards won't use.
Whoever has a video card that supports that feature AND a processor that supports it, has the money to upgrade a b450 motherboard. 

[EEVblog]

ASUS B550M motherboard obtained, BIOS updated via USB and works a treat! 

[jazz]

This was super funny It's like Dave went to the store with the challenge to specifically find hardware that is only compatible in the most awkward extra steps required way Knowing how he's not exactly the most PC-savvy person, it was pretty much an "oh no!" moment every time he dragged a new piece of hardware into the picture

[bson]

It's a crapshoot when picking up an old MB and current processor, even if they use the same physical socket.  BTW, congrats on finding a Ryzen 9 5900X in stock, and getting a deal on no less; I've been trying to find one at non-scalper prices for six months now.  Motherboards are cheap and if buying a modern processor go get a current motherboard for it, with the latest highest performance chipset.  Things like bus timing and the number of PCIe lanes on the CPU SoC change over time.

Beware of ASUS gaming garbageware they love to peddle.  Don't install any of that nonsense.

Modern PC canon says suck in fresh air from the front and blow it out the top.  That's why the CPU fan is horizontal, and why the case has a vent up top.

[mariush]

Modern PC canon says suck in fresh air from the front and blow it out the top.  That's why the CPU fan is horizontal, and why the case has a vent up top.

warm air rises, so input air from bottom and front, output on back and top.

Servers typically cool front to back, so everything is aligned so airflow can go through heatsink fins, ram sticks etc  ...

[Per Hansson]

I did not see it mentioned in the Youtube comments but on Gigabytes website there is this note for the F40 BIOS:

1. If you are using Q-Flash Utility to update BIOS, make sure you have updated BIOS to F32 before F40
2. Before update BIOS to F40, you have to install EC FW Update Tool (B19.0517.1 or later version) to avoid 4DIMM DDR incompatibility on 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen™ CPU

So since your board got stuck on memory error did you try it with only 1 or 2 installed DIMM's instead of all 4?
P.S: the EC firmware also complicates flashing with an external programmer, as basically it will not be performed.

[wraper]

I did not see it mentioned in the Youtube comments but on Gigabytes website there is this note for the F40 BIOS:
2. Before update BIOS to F40, you have to install EC FW Update Tool (B19.0517.1 or later version) to avoid 4DIMM DDR incompatibility on 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen™ CPU
So since your board got stuck on memory error did you try it with only 1 or 2 installed DIMM's instead of all 4?
P.S: the EC firmware also complicates flashing with an external programmer, as basically it will not be performed.

Unlikely to be relevant since it was bios update in 2019. Motherboard not likely to have bios that old. Not to say that it was about update process, not motherboard having bios too old for CPU used.

[Per Hansson]

This is not a BIOS update, the EC firmware resides in a different chip.
That is why it requires a different tool to flash it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_controller

[bd139]

Gah I’m slightly glad I didn’t jump on the zen3 bandwagon now. I had a B550 board ready to go but the lack of GPUs put me off the build in the end. 

Just to point out some of the MSI boards can do a BIOS and EC upgrade with no CPU fitted. Worth starting there if you end up in this situation.

A friend of mine ordered another older CPU from Amazon, updated the bios then sent it back to get his working   

[EEVblog]

Gah I’m slightly glad I didn’t jump on the zen3 bandwagon now. I had a B550 board ready to go but the lack of GPUs put me off the build in the end. 
Just to point out some of the MSI boards can do a BIOS and EC upgrade with no CPU fitted. Worth starting there if you end up in this situation.

Haven't they just released a new 5000 series Ryzen with integrated GPU?
And my new Asus 550M board supports no-cpu USB update, I had to do it as my board was old stock and it worked fine.

[bd139]

Probably but completely unobtainable at the moment unfortunately, at least here in the UK. Only thing you can get here is Intel parts with Intel graphics in them. Literally all the GPUs and APUs are gone

Good to hear Asus have picked that up as well.

[EEVblog]

This was super funny It's like Dave went to the store with the challenge to specifically find hardware that is only compatible in the most awkward extra steps required way Knowing how he's not exactly the most PC-savvy person, it was pretty much an "oh no!" moment every time he dragged a new piece of hardware into the picture

As I said in the video, I didn't research this stuff, nor go to the store.
The case was supposed to be for the dumpster motherboard I found.
Then I lucked upon the B450 motherboard that fitted the case I had so decided to just order the best CPU I could get for it based on a cursory glance of the webpage of supposed devices.
Turns out the whole Ryzen thing is a bit of a shit-show.
I'm glad people were amused though, that's why I uploaded the video.