Bare bone PC - recomendation?

[FriedMule]

Hi I am planning on investing in a barebone PC + a small screen.
I know that I can "just buy the biggest I can afford but I would like to hear your opinion on a PC only for Electronic lab usage. That include USB interface, Recording of video for documentation, designing of PCB, internet access and maybe an open source office pack.

What would you recommend of CPU, i3-i5-i7 speed, Ram size and so on?

[FriedMule]

Thanks, I am not planning on using the PC as oscilloscope or connected to DUT. It's more a PC for configuring test gear, record cam and search for datasheets and so on.I think I'll use win 10 but will block windows 10 from talking with MS, block google, facebook and so on, from telling anything.
For camera usage and maybe recording, do I speculate if I5 2.5MHz is not about minimum?
I do also think of saving as much power as possible but a laptop will be almost unusable since the screen and keyboard only works if I let it be open and within writing distance oor buy an extra screen and keyboard. So a barebone iss properly the least power consuming?
It looks as if a normal PC is cheaper but what about wattage?

[David Hess]

For a minimum system, I would use one of the AMD Ryzen APUs which have built in graphics on a smaller motherboard which has *four* DIMM slots because you will be more limited by RAM than CPU or GPU performance.

[wraper]

If you just need to run KiCAD, FireFox and OBS, I'd go for a quad core i3 (8350k, for instance, or equivalent AMD 3300x) and overclock it to the highest clock I can get stably. Most EDA tools favor frequency than cores.

They are not equivalent, Ryzen 3300x has much higher performance and has SMT. EDIT: it's on par with i7 7700K and even a little bit better in most tasks.

[MarkF]

I have always eyed those small Intel® NUC PCs but don't have one.

   https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/boards-kits/nuc.html

[FriedMule]

Thanks a lot!
The question is just if the barebone's are much more expensive, compared with a "normal" mini pc? It can't be cheap to cramp it all into such a small unit?
About cpu vs ram, yes ram do often mean more then cpu, as long I do not get a to slow cpu. That's why I did suggest a min core i5 2.5 (do not know AMD's names) but do in mo way mind if it's an AMD, such as the one suggested above.

On the other hand do I hope to get the PC as cheap as possible, since it's only meant for lab usage.

So in short, barebone or mini PC?
Min 8Gb ram?

[SilverSolder]

Dell Optiplex small form factor (SFF) PCs are really good, and available cheap.

Gun for an i7 with 16GB RAM, should be possible for less than $300

[wilfred]

The OBS site says this "Even the most powerful consumer CPUs can still struggle with the load of encoding a high-resolution, high-fps stream." Your requirements for streaming pretty much limit you to a high performance CPU. If you are intending to stream or record HD video at 60fps then look around to see what works for others. If you don't need live streaming and recording then get a decent camera to record video and encode it at leisure.

[David Hess]

The question is just if the barebone's are much more expensive, compared with a "normal" mini pc? It can't be cheap to cramp it all into such a small unit?

Standardized commodity hardware benefits from economy of scale compared to more specialized single board computers making it more economical.  It is also easier to maintain and upgrade if necessary.

I am actually thinking about doing something similar but with ECC support which unfortunately requires using a separate GPU unless I can get one of AMD's "Pro" APUs which are only made available to OEMs.

[FriedMule]

Dell Optiplex small form factor (SFF) PCs are really good, and available cheap.

Gun for an i7 with 16GB RAM, should be possible for less than $300

Sounds really great, do you know a place were I can get it to about that price?
In Denmark do it look more like $2500

[wraper]

Dell Optiplex small form factor (SFF) PCs are really good, and available cheap.

Gun for an i7 with 16GB RAM, should be possible for less than $300

Sounds really great, do you know a place were I can get it to about that price?
In Denmark do it look more like $2500

He is likely talking about obsolete 8yo garbage.

[rdl]

A while back I bought an off-lease Lenovo desktop. I don't know exactly how old it is, but it cost only $150. It has an i5-3470 and 8GB RAM. I'm pretty sure it will do everything the op asked for.

[NiHaoMike]

The OBS site says this "Even the most powerful consumer CPUs can still struggle with the load of encoding a high-resolution, high-fps stream." Your requirements for streaming pretty much limit you to a high performance CPU. If you are intending to stream or record HD video at 60fps then look around to see what works for others. If you don't need live streaming and recording then get a decent camera to record video and encode it at leisure.

What they're saying is to use a GPU or other hardware encoder for real time encoding. For 1080p, $30 gets you a LKV373A HDMI capture box with built in hardware encoder.

[SilverSolder]

Dell Optiplex small form factor (SFF) PCs are really good, and available cheap.

Gun for an i7 with 16GB RAM, should be possible for less than $300

Sounds really great, do you know a place were I can get it to about that price?
In Denmark do it look more like $2500

He is likely talking about obsolete 8yo garbage.

I am talking about something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-9020-SFF-i7-4th-Gen-1TB-HDD-16GB-RAM-Win-10-1GB-Graphics-Card/383546585104

You would probably want to add an SSD drive, so the total cost probably goes up by another couple of hundred $.

New machines will not run significantly faster than an i7 at 3.6GHz with 16GB of RAM.   Leave the new $2500 machines for people that have never wanted for anything in life!

[wraper]

I am talking about something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-9020-SFF-i7-4th-Gen-1TB-HDD-16GB-RAM-Win-10-1GB-Graphics-Card/383546585104

You would probably want to add an SSD drive, so the total cost probably goes up by another couple of hundred $.

New machines will not run significantly faster than an i7 at 3.6GHz with 16GB of RAM.   Leave the new $2500 machines for people that have never wanted for anything in life!

You can get Ryzen 3100 for $100 or 3300X for $120, $45 motherboard, 16GB ram for $60, PSU/case for $50+. Besides lacking of old slow garbage HDD which I won't trust anyway, basically the same price for brand new computer with better performance and lower power consumption (you also need GPU but you can chose APU instead if want iGPU).
EDIT: if need win10 and want to stay legal, find old win 7/8 licence and upgrade it into win 10 for free.

[SilverSolder]

I am talking about something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-9020-SFF-i7-4th-Gen-1TB-HDD-16GB-RAM-Win-10-1GB-Graphics-Card/383546585104

You would probably want to add an SSD drive, so the total cost probably goes up by another couple of hundred $.

New machines will not run significantly faster than an i7 at 3.6GHz with 16GB of RAM.   Leave the new $2500 machines for people that have never wanted for anything in life!

You can get Ryzen 3100 for $100 or 3300X for $120, $45 motherboard, 16GB ram for $60, PSU/case for $50+. Besides lacking of old slow garbage HDD which I won't trust anyway, basically the same price for brand new computer with better performance and lower power consumption (you also need GPU but you can chose APU instead if want iGPU).
EDIT: if need win10 and want to stay legal, find old win 7/8 licence and upgrade it into win 10 for free.

I hear you, but it just isn't going to be the same level of quality - have you ever seen one of the SFF Optiplexes up close?  The Optiplex build is top, top quality...   once you open one up, you can only stare in amazement and wonder at how good they are.  Built like a compact little brick sh!thouse.  No tools needed to take anything out, everything has levers and locking mechanisms. 

Furthermore, Optiplexes have an actual real serial port, which comes in handy in the lab environment.   Dell has the Windows licensing built into the BIOS (OEM license), never any need to activate Windows or mess around with anything like that - just install and go.

Basically, the Optiplex is a high quality design where new prices are kept modest by manufacturing in high volumes, and the used market has plentiful supply from the corporate world to keep prices even lower for the AMAZING quality that you get.

[chriva]

I'd also say used Optiplex.
No performance monster by any means but it's small and you don't have to deal with building the machine, buying expensive itx board, chassis and psu etc.

Everything is $$$ when it comes to small form factor builds so you'd basically abuse your wallet if you were to build one yourself.

Look for one that has PCI-E tho. The internal GPU is usually leaving a lot to be desired with machines from the core i gen 4-5 era. Just stick a 60$ gpu in it and be done

[SilverSolder]

I'd also say used Optiplex.
No performance monster by any means but it's small and you don't have to deal with building the machine, buying expensive itx board, chassis and psu etc.

Everything is $$$ when it comes to small form factor builds so you'd basically abuse your wallet if you were to build one yourself.

Look for one that has PCI-E tho. The internal GPU is usually leaving a lot to be desired with machines from the core i gen 4-5 era. Just stick a 60$ gpu in it and be done

I built a SFF gaming PC by adding an Nvidia GTX 1050 graphics card to an Optiplex Core i7 2600 / 3.40GHz / 16GB - which is "only" a gen 2!  Things have only improved very incrementally since then.

The kid (who is heavily into gaming but not building PCs) is very happy with it and says it performs completely respectably in the online gaming world.  This is probably about the fastest graphics card that the PSU can handle, though - it is only 250W -  but the GTX 1050 is very frugal on power.

Total cost for the entire build was something like $250,  as I already had an SSD that could be pressed into service for this one.

[wraper]

I am talking about something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-Optiplex-9020-SFF-i7-4th-Gen-1TB-HDD-16GB-RAM-Win-10-1GB-Graphics-Card/383546585104

You would probably want to add an SSD drive, so the total cost probably goes up by another couple of hundred $.

New machines will not run significantly faster than an i7 at 3.6GHz with 16GB of RAM.   Leave the new $2500 machines for people that have never wanted for anything in life!

You can get Ryzen 3100 for $100 or 3300X for $120, $45 motherboard, 16GB ram for $60, PSU/case for $50+. Besides lacking of old slow garbage HDD which I won't trust anyway, basically the same price for brand new computer with better performance and lower power consumption (you also need GPU but you can chose APU instead if want iGPU).
EDIT: if need win10 and want to stay legal, find old win 7/8 licence and upgrade it into win 10 for free.

I hear you, but it just isn't going to be the same level of quality - have you ever seen one of the SFF Optiplexes up close?  The Optiplex build is top, top quality...   once you open one up, you can only stare in amazement and wonder at how good they are.  Built like a compact little brick sh!thouse.  No tools needed to take anything out, everything has levers and locking mechanisms. 

Furthermore, Optiplexes have an actual real serial port, which comes in handy in the lab environment.   Dell has the Windows licensing built into the BIOS (OEM license), never any need to activate Windows or mess around with anything like that - just install and go.

Win 10 remembers hardware. If it was activated once, it will activate automatically upon clean reinstall without entering any serial number. Old dell has no warranty and is past it's designed lifetime. It does not have exceptional quality. Cheap motherboard with weak 3 phase VRM. Also half capacitors are usual electrolytic caps instead of all polymer you'll get with new motherboard.

[Mechatrommer]

an intel fan... always... https://www.pcworld.com/article/3540757/intel-core-i9-10900k-comet-lake-chip-price-specs-and-features.html and will build custom setup anytime as NUC like equivalent still cant deal with my storage need. ps: although i still think hyper/multi threading is a placebo buzz... ymmv.

[wraper]

an intel fan... always... https://www.pcworld.com/article/3540757/intel-core-i9-10900k-comet-lake-chip-price-specs-and-features.html and will build custom setup anytime as NUC like equivalent still cant deal with my storage need.

10 series is a result of marketing fart. They simply added ridiculous boost frequency to 9th series. The caveat is you'll unlikely to ever see it boost to the max. Performance is marginally better than 9th series and sometimes even worse.

[Mechatrommer]

an intel fan... always... https://www.pcworld.com/article/3540757/intel-core-i9-10900k-comet-lake-chip-price-specs-and-features.html and will build custom setup anytime as NUC like equivalent still cant deal with my storage need.

10 series is a result of marketing fart.

a marketing fart that AMD brought (multithreading) that was once in the hand of Intel, then later dismissed in previous Gen, it now comes back again but i will not so eagerly invest on the latest Gen yet, i will find many more good reasons if i want to invest on a new system. but its the time that they have reached my spec... double the speed of my 2.66GHz Q9400, more than double the cores is bonus... a 10 years wait... but i will take your point, including to compare them with Ryzen series and even older Intel's Gen (to cut cost)... we have more infos/reviews in the net nowadays, so its a more wonderfull time. ymmv.

[wraper]

an intel fan... always... https://www.pcworld.com/article/3540757/intel-core-i9-10900k-comet-lake-chip-price-specs-and-features.html and will build custom setup anytime as NUC like equivalent still cant deal with my storage need.

10 series is a result of marketing fart.

a marketing fart that AMD brought (multithreading) that was once in the hand of Intel, then later dismissed in previous Gen, it now comes back again but i will not so eagerly invest on the latest Gen yet, i will find many more good reasons if i want to invest on a new system. but its the time that they have reached my spec... double the speed of my 2.66GHz Q9400, more than double the cores is bonus... a 10 years wait... but i will take your point, including to compare them with Ryzen series and even older Intel's Gen (to cut cost)... we have more infos/reviews in the net nowadays, so its a more wonderfull time. ymmv.

Excuse me but you are confusing multithreading with Hyperthreading/SMT. And Hyperthreading/SMT indeed does add significant performance increase. And BTW what I wrote about marketing fart has nothing to do with it. Intel simply sells old CPUs made with old process under new name and boasts some nonsense as if it was some breakthrough.

[SilverSolder]

[...] Intel simply sells old CPUs made with old process under new name and boasts some nonsense as if it was some breakthrough.

Exactly, which is why you are not really much worse off using older i7 cpus...   (I realize AMD has better performance/price and have owned many AMD powered machines)

[SilverSolder]

[...] Old dell has no warranty and is past it's designed lifetime. It does not have exceptional quality. Cheap motherboard with weak 3 phase VRM. Also half capacitors are usual electrolytic caps instead of all polymer you'll get with new motherboard.

I'm talking about mechanical quality as much as anything...  The steel is so thick on these, that the side panels don't flex...   The connectors are high quality...  Etc etc.

A new motherboard for one of these is like $15 on eBay,  so they are cheap to fix if anything ever goes wrong.

For non-enthusiast, economy applications, they are very hard to beat in practical terms.

That doesn't mean I don't appreciate making a PC from scratch.  I'm still using an EVGA SR-2 based dual hex core machine I built years ago...   I have a rule for building a new PC:  The performance has to be at least double of the old one, or you'll barely notice the difference.  I'm not convinced that I'd be able to build something with double the performance even today, so many years later! - which basically shows us how the whole PC industry has plateaued in terms of performance.

But in the lab, I use an Optiplex, and when friends and family ask for help choosing a PC they get an Optiplex.  No dissatisfied customers, and little/no work for me.  Winner!