Besides TPM +PLUTO and all pushed ecrap.. MS will NOT install on HDs...

[PKTKS]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/microsofts-reportedly-trying-to-kill-hdd-boot-drives-for-windows-11-pcs-by-2023


So they are claiming property de facto of all hardware giving customers no choice.

By default as usual pushing  their crap in retailers..

sick nauseate.

Paul

[PKTKS]

https://www.techpowerup.com/295683/oems-under-pressure-from-microsoft-to-stop-use-of-hdds-as-boot-drives-from-2023

[free_electron]

Disc storage is evolving...
spinning rust is for bulk storage at huge sizes. 4TB and beyond.
Flash is for OS/applications and mobile ( you don't want power hungry spinning drives mobile anyway)
Flash is smaller, consumes less power and is faster.

Even in servers the OS can be stored on an M2 and the real drives are data containers. upgrading the os is as simple as replacing the M2 module with a fresh imaged one. so in large datacenters your downtime is low. power off  , swap module, power on. no sane person will sit there deploying and configuring the OS while that server is down.

so, microsoft has a point.
for consumers : flash as boot , any other drive is data. laptops don't have drives anymore. it's all flash. i could see it being useful for desktops , but we are evolving away from those. and even desktop boards have M2 slots these days. and you can always use a flash sata if needed.
for servers : flash for OS, drives for data.

if i look at my machines. they all use flash as their primary drives and they are all older than 5 years... the workstations have a secondary spinning drive but even then they are mainly going unused .. data lives on the NAS which is all real drives ( think of it : even the nas boots from ... flash... )

so it's only logical. There is a point where you have to let go of legacy. Even linux does that.. they ditched so many processors and devices over the years. Using flash for the OS only has advantages. they can optimize the OS for the features only found in flash memory

[coromonadalix]

+1  with the previous thread

you can find some ways to upgrade legacy stuff   like  ide DOM (disk on module)  kinda like an ssd

Compact flash cards with an adapter  to boot from ...    etc ...


Eventually  yes   

You will have to upgrade,  i'm on pcie 4x gen 4  ssd     damn it's fast, when i install and  ''old hdd''  i want to cry  loll

Piling money to get on the next gen  pcie5  ssd / nvme etc ....  lolll    speeeeed 

[PKTKS]

I see that w/caveats:

- Any soft vendor (OS in particular) enforcing what they deliberately will work with is bad.
  so bad they can actually dump users and force buying it all again at any time.

- and this is going towards flashing the thing into some ROM flash with fuses and proprietary stuff.

That includes putting the  whole FOSS ecosystem on top of it...
locked by firmware flashing and FUSES.

Steps are clearly making this picture

Paul

[SiliconWizard]

Looks rather clear that this is all to hide the fact that Windows is getting increasingly hungry for mass storage bandwidth and using it on HDDs is ALREADY a pain (at least with Win10, and probably worse with Win11). They just don't want people to notice that Windows is constantly accessing your drives. Good thing for them that drive LEDs showing activity have mostly disappeared on modern computers. No LED, no noise, and enough bandwidth that the average Joe will never notice what Windows does with your drives. Nice.

[free_electron]

I see that w/caveats:

- Any soft vendor (OS in particular) enforcing what they deliberately will work with is bad.
  so bad they can actually dump users and force buying it all again at any time.

Apple model. Less legacy to maintain. they control select hardware. so they can focus on that stuff as opposed to endlessly supporting doohickey xyz made by onehunglow and in use by 3 people and a dead donkey in the whole world.

That includes putting the  whole FOSS ecosystem on top of it...

FOSS is too FUSSy to deal with. Microsoft is not FOSS.
You can still install FOSS on that hardware. The TPM and that pluton processor does not stop you from running other Os'ses. It just stops you from running W11 if it is NOT there. so what is your problem ? Dualboot ? will still work .

[james_s]

Looks rather clear that this is all to hide the fact that Windows is getting increasingly hungry for mass storage bandwidth and using it on HDDs is ALREADY a pain (at least with Win10, and probably worse with Win11). They just don't want people to notice that Windows is constantly accessing your drives. Good thing for them that drive LEDs showing activity have mostly disappeared on modern computers. No LED, no noise, and enough bandwidth that the average Joe will never notice what Windows does with your drives. Nice.

I really miss drive activity LEDs on newer laptops. Even with SSDs it's quite a useful feature. Is the system locked up or is it busy accessing the disc? Is there some malware running in the background accessing the drive heavily? Who knows anymore.

[Bud]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

[PKTKS]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

I would not bet a single cent on that..

Things add up:
- UEFI now can boot anything via simple http (builtin stack)
- removal of storage LED activity
- removal and constrained allowable install
- required "processor" (who guess what for)  for supervision
- solid state storage as we know it in portable gizmos is used to lock in

So.. the net end result reasonably points to a full locked flashed ROM OS
probably controlled by these pushed chips and locked fuses..

bottom line a closed and fully censored device.

Pushed onto OEM - their default M.O.  as always

Paul

[PKTKS]

Interesting  facts opinions on trends of whole buz

https://linux.slashdot.org/story/22/06/09/2118249/i-love-the-linux-desktop-but-that-doesnt-mean-i-dont-see-its-problems-all-too-well?utm_source=rss0.9mainlinkanon&utm_medium=feed

I can not agree more despite the fact IMHO MS should FUCKOFF from IT at all


Besides over 200 distros, there are 21 different desktop interfaces and over half-a-dozen different major ways to install software such as the Debian Package Management System (DPKG), Red Hat Package Manager (RPM), Pacman, Zypper, and all too many others. Then there are all the newer containerized ways to install programs including Flatpak, Snap, and AppImage. I can barely keep them all straight and that's part of my job! How can you expect ordinary users to make sense of it all? You can't. None of the major Linux distributors -- Canonical, Red Hat, and SUSE -- really care about the Linux desktop. Sure, they have them. They're also major desktop influencers. But their cash comes from servers, containers, the cloud, and the Internet of Things (IoT). The desktop? Please. We should just be glad they spend as many resources as they do on them.

Now, all this said, I don't want you to get the impression that I don't think the conventional Linux desktop is important. I do. In fact, I think it's critical. Microsoft, you see, is abandoning the traditional PC-based desktop. In its crystal ball, Microsoft sees Azure-based Desktop-as-a-Service (DaaS) as its future. [...] That means that the future of a true desktop operating system will lie in the hands of Apple with macOS and us with Linux. As someone who remembers the transition from centrally controlled mainframes and minicomputers to individually empowered PCs, I do not want to return to a world where all power belongs to Microsoft or any other company.
"The Linux desktop will never be as big as Windows once was," writes Vaughan-Nichols in closing. "Between DaaS's rise and the fall of the desktop to smartphones, it can't be. But it may yet, by default, become the most popular true conventional desktop."



Their gizmos will probably Do only Daas  fully locked

Paul

[Monkeh]

Ahh, more amazing leaps.

Microsoft do not want their product sold on machines which will compromise its performance. OEMs get special deals on the OS, and these can come with certain terms. This does not mean it will not install on an HDD, it means junk machines will possibly become slightly less junky.

Looks rather clear that this is all to hide the fact that Windows is getting increasingly hungry for mass storage bandwidth and using it on HDDs is ALREADY a pain (at least with Win10, and probably worse with Win11). They just don't want people to notice that Windows is constantly accessing your drives. Good thing for them that drive LEDs showing activity have mostly disappeared on modern computers. No LED, no noise, and enough bandwidth that the average Joe will never notice what Windows does with your drives. Nice.

I really miss drive activity LEDs on newer laptops. Even with SSDs it's quite a useful feature. Is the system locked up or is it busy accessing the disc? Is there some malware running in the background accessing the drive heavily? Who knows anymore.

The OS helpfully provides you with a per-process breakdown of disk activity, memory usage, CPU usage, network usage.. but you want a blinking light saying 'hurr, something happen'?

[madires]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

Emphasis on 'yet'. About 15 to 20 years ago there was a trend for thin clients (mostly Citrix and RDP). Now MS offers Windows 365. And you know, most companies love subscription based services.

BTW, inexpensive notebooks come with an eMMC (soldered!) instead of a HDD/SSD nowadays.

[PKTKS]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

Emphasis on 'yet'. About 15 to 20 years ago there was a trend for thin clients (mostly Citrix and RDP). Now MS offers Windows 365. And you know, most companies love subscription based services.

BTW, inexpensive notebooks come with an eMMC (soldered!) instead of a HDD/SSD nowadays.

Some do some don't

EL CHEAPOS  do come with custom SSD so they have an optional portfolio

THE KUUUUUUU  el cheapo  if more thin client than this... it will bend

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001953863570.html


BTW this ENE  class of programmable SuperI/O is a pile of shit to replace... (as some ITEs)
Paul

[SiliconWizard]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

Yet, indeed.

My biggest "fear" is not that a private company would pull this off. If they do, good for them. I wouldn't use their product. (Heck, I still use Win 7 and have no definite plan for ever upgrading unless MS changes their model entirely. Which is not very likely.)

It is that it would eventually get mandated by law. For alleged security reasons and whatever.

[PKTKS]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

Yet, indeed.

My biggest "fear" is not that a private company would pull this off. If they do, good for them. I wouldn't use their product. (Heck, I still use Win 7 and have no definite plan for ever upgrading unless MS changes their model entirely. Which is not very likely.)

It is that it would eventually get mandated by law. For alleged security reasons and whatever.

I would not  take that as security ...
they have big pockets ... they can actually pay for such mandated legislation..
so they will got back that on prices charged for their bundled chips and licenses....

bottom line as have being they are the nasty business man in IT.
nothing beyond that.

I hope they just find some other niche to milk
and keep their hands out my tools my PC my life...

Paul

[Halcyon]

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

It's almost that bad already. Some versions of Windows 10 and newer force you to have a Microsoft account (don't get that confused with a corporate Azure or M365 account, that's different again) and there is no way you can bypass it if you want to use your computer with a fresh install.

It's shit like this that makes me thank every day that I bothered to learn and switch to Linux. And it's only going to get worse...

[bd139]

I'm actually with Microsoft here. A lot of the implants that are done are EFI and pre-boot now. They can be used trivially to bypass bitlocker.

The point is to have a fully secure boot chain. As yourself which scenario is better for the industry:

1. Someone leaves a corporate laptop on a train by accident and someone malicious extracts data from it through a pre-boot attack.
2. Someone leaves a corporate laptop on a train by accident and someone malicious can't execute a pre-boot attack and the laptop is useless.

You can't un-exfiltrate data.

No one really gives a shit about the freedom and control side of this other than the tech press because it sells a good story and some paranoid folk. Why?  Because the only thing that is important to most people is the data and this is a mandatory step to allow the owner or organisation to control the data on the computer safely. There had to be a compromise somewhere and people, me included, want it to be this way.

For reference, this won't be mandated by law. It's entirely a security demand by the organisations buying oodles of windows machines.

[Ranayna]

The rumours of Windows 11 Pro requiring a MS Account and internet access to install are what finally drove me to move to Linux. Gaming on Linux has gone a loooooong way, and works significantly better now.

Mind you, while the account is required for the insider version of Windows 11 22H2, it is still not finally confirmed if that is true for the official release as well.
As least the system requirements page has not yet been updated. I still don't believe that this will be in the final released version, since that would open up MS to lawsuits due to significant changes in system requirements. Something similar did not turn out so well for Sony, when they removed Linux compatibility from the Playstation 3.

But the HDD thing is a good thing. You do not want to use Windows on an HDD. It is soooo damn slow to boot.
And this change does *not* mean that you can't install Windows on an HDD anymore. It is just a change to the MS certification of complete systems. To get the sticker, you now need an SSD. And that is a good thing as that requirement weeds out a lot of the crap.

[PKTKS]

(..)
And this change does *not* mean that you can't install Windows on an HDD anymore. It is just a change to the MS certification of complete systems. To get the sticker, you now need an SSD. And that is a good thing as that requirement weeds out a lot of the crap.

I haven't   seen this so superior performance SSDxHDD

Carefully chosen HDs still outperform a wide range of SSD.. at least the average joe consumer seen.

On the other side of the coin.. these new solid state sticks are  clearly paving the way to soldered flash ROMs on gizmos... crappy corporate kiosks  and alike..

Ultimately my guess that given the large consumer base for these corporate kiosks..  that soldered flash will be norm...  leading SSDs and HDs to the void  as "insecure" or outperformed..

Truth is:  business as usual they give  a crap to consumers - the need of cash prevails.

We will see how fast  the soldered solid state - NO VISIBLE LED - is pushed to OEMs

Paul

[bd139]

(..)
And this change does *not* mean that you can't install Windows on an HDD anymore. It is just a change to the MS certification of complete systems. To get the sticker, you now need an SSD. And that is a good thing as that requirement weeds out a lot of the crap.

I haven't   seen this so superior performance SSDxHDD

Carefully chosen HDs still outperform a wide range of SSD.. at least the average joe consumer seen.

That is quite frankly the most ridiculous load of bollocks I've ever heard in the history of my existence. There isn't a single hard disk on the market that can actually touch even a crap consumer SSD on any metric at the moment other than storage cost.

I have an absolute ton of data on this going back over a decade of managing a very large data centre with proper expensive enterprise mechanical disks in it. The answer is they don't exist any more and have been replaced by SSD storage. In fact they don't even exist now either because we rent the SSDs from Amazon.

Find me a laptop disk that can do this 

On the other side of the coin.. these new solid state sticks are  clearly paving the way to soldered flash ROMs on gizmos... crappy corporate kiosks  and alike..

Ultimately my guess that given the large consumer base for these corporate kiosks..  that soldered flash will be norm...  leading SSDs and HDs to the void  as "insecure" or outperformed..

Truth is:  business as usual they give  a crap to consumers - the need of cash prevails.

We will see how fast  the soldered solid state - NO VISIBLE LED - is pushed to OEMs

Paul

And that's the second most ridiculous load of bollocks I've ever heard.

Literally you are anti progress paranoid and that's fine but please acknowledge it for what it is.

[PKTKS]

Not at all..

Spent last years upgrading a lot of HDs to SSDs...
Including my NAS .. some NVRs...

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)
HDS usually perform at best requiring no tweaks.. no firmware time waste...

Unavoidable miniaturization and trends in cell phone  and tablets like devices just point into that direction...

As uncle did with Android  and the iFoolnes..  piece of cake to solder flash and lock the OS into..

I  have already started a quest to replace x86 which i consider to be doomed in the next steps..

Paul

[Monkeh]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)
HDS usually perform at best requiring no tweaks.. no firmware time waste...

Yes, an HDD can perform at its 'best' of 150MiB/s or so read speed for completely physically contiguous reads with extremely variable seek time and absolutely no idea when it'll go off into the weeds on a remapped sector it doesn't tell you exists.. Just wait until you guys catch up to SMR drives..

While a low cost SSD may not be able to fully saturate a SATA interface in all circumstances, their read speeds are generally very consistent and 2-3x higher than an HDD with near to zero seek time - which immediately provides a giant performance advantage in all read scenarios.

Please stop assuming all hardware around the world from proper OEMs is the floor scrapings you keep buying down there.

[eugene]

It's shit like this that makes me thank every day that I bothered to learn and switch to Linux. And it's only going to get worse...

I agree. What worries me in the long run is that MS will require manufacturers to build machines that will only boot Windows X, so installing linux will become difficult. No doubt there will be work arounds for a long time. People install Ubuntu on their phones and Android on their laptops (not sure why) but it could become difficult.

[Ranayna]

I agree that there are some really shitty SSDs.
There are also many places where an SSD simply does not make sense. Why put an SSD into an NVR? A good NVR that can properly create a single datastream from the cameras and keeps fragmentation low does not need an SSD.
As long as a NAS has just a single, or two, gigabit connections, putting SSDs as main storage drives into a NAS is also somewhat pointless. The network connection will cap the SSD speed, and the added latency of the OS and the network will also reduce the seek time advantage considerably.

But as boot drive for an ordinary PC? The performance boost that an SSD gives is just too large to not use one. For normal private workloads, the throughput of an SSD is not the important part. You will likely not really notice the difference between a good SATA SSD with 500 MByte/s throughput and a PCIe NVMe drive with 5.000 MByte/s throughput.
The seek times for random access are way more important.

[rob77]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

[PKTKS]

Monky i love your insults.. so diligent

Why replace NVRs HDs w SSDs? PRICE!!

I am 100% driven by budget solutions.  I live on a total messy supply chain chaos counting how to keep things working

Lot of ssds require proper  host tweak aka libata negotiations


So far so good replacing 1T today is cheaper and affordable

Paul

[PKTKS]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Not sure how  but the symptoms are in the log files...

LIBATA TIMEOUT...  RESETTING DEVICE...

shitty cables are the top culprits

Second comes the host ahci bios

Very common on cheapos

Btw .. so far always fixed with proper libata setup...  when even the best cable is not ok

Paul

[Ranayna]

One relatively prominent example of firmware issues in the past was Samsung.
Several models for the consumer market had an interesting issue: Reading old data that was not touched for some time was slow, down to single digit MByte/s.
Some Western digital models also showed similar behaviour.

Some modern SSDs without DRAM cache can also be quite slow on sustained writes. I myself use a Samsung 870 QVO as game storage SSD. That disk gets slow on sustained writes, down to 80 MByte/s, significantly less that the theoretical throughput of SATA. Read speeds are good (for SATA) though. I deliberately chose that SSD for it's price, and was aware of the limitations.

[gmb42]

(..)
And this change does *not* mean that you can't install Windows on an HDD anymore. It is just a change to the MS certification of complete systems. To get the sticker, you now need an SSD. And that is a good thing as that requirement weeds out a lot of the crap.

I haven't   seen this so superior performance SSDxHDD

Carefully chosen HDs still outperform a wide range of SSD.. at least the average joe consumer seen.

On the other side of the coin.. these new solid state sticks are  clearly paving the way to soldered flash ROMs on gizmos... crappy corporate kiosks  and alike..

Ultimately my guess that given the large consumer base for these corporate kiosks..  that soldered flash will be norm...  leading SSDs and HDs to the void  as "insecure" or outperformed..

Truth is:  business as usual they give  a crap to consumers - the need of cash prevails.

We will see how fast  the soldered solid state - NO VISIBLE LED - is pushed to OEMs

Paul

Unsubscribed from this thread, totally pointless waste of time even reading the garbage nonsense spouted here, which unfortunately for PKTKS isn't just limited to SSD\HDD usage.

[PKTKS]

Some modern SSDs without DRAM cache can also be quite slow on sustained writes. I myself use a Samsung 870 QVO as game storage SSD. That disk gets slow on sustained writes, down to 80 MByte/s, significantly less that the theoretical throughput of SATA. Read speeds are good (for SATA) though. I deliberately chose that SSD for it's price, and was aware of the limitations.

That vary from mobo to mobo and ssd brand.. but so far..

I have been able to fix timeouts with careful log inspection and setup

Regarding LACK OF ACCESS LEDs  i always install those led kits... have a box full of them  and no mobo left wo a led light

In time we will see next   OEM steps.to lock x86 as it seems how things are going...

In due time this will sort it out

Paul

[Monkeh]

Lot of ssds require proper  host tweak aka libata negotiations

Name the specific SSD which requires you to do anything but plug it in and use it. Especially name one which requires any adjustment of a Linux kernel when discussing OEM Windows PCs.

I am 100% driven by budget solutions.  I live on a total messy supply chain chaos counting how to keep things working

You are buying the cheapest recycled garbage which is already ten generations out of date and complaining about it.

[SiliconWizard]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Well, while this is relatively uncommon with recent and decent SSDs, I would not be surprised by the above with not-so-decent SSDs, and I don't think the metric is appropriate anyway.
The point is, what alternative do you have?

You may not achieve "SATA speeds" (I'm assuming by that you mean the full theoretical throughput of SATA) with some SSDs, but you will achieve even lower with HDDs, even the fastest ones. So what's the point exactly?

And if you want fast, just use decent NVMe SSDs and they'll literally beat the crap out of any SATA-based solution.

Now if for any reason, you have to settle for cheaper gear, then sure. But again, even a cheap SSD will be much faster than your fastest HDD. If you have ever noticed otherwise, I'll be curious  to see that.

[PKTKS]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Well, while this is relatively uncommon with recent and decent SSDs, I would not be surprised by the above with not-so-decent SSDs, and I don't think the metric is appropriate anyway.
The point is, what alternative do you have?

Google for

SSD A2 boot issues...

Folks upgrading hd to ssd finding that are commonly found

Paul

[bd139]

I used to get that on machines before SSDs even existed...

[Monkeh]

So you back up a statement that some SATA SSDs don't saturate the interface by stating some 10 year old boards have BIOS bugs.

 

[bd139]

Classic case of coming to a conclusion and picking information to back it up.

[PKTKS]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only
I welcome any folk desperate with same problem to contact me pm ... looking for possible solutions

I claim nothing  more not. else
Paul

[Monkeh]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only

So not only does it have nothing to do with performance, it's not even limited to SSDs..

What was your point again? That you've seen buggy hardware? Welcome to the world.

[PKTKS]

I have 2 machines w that classic A2 issue
It is not exclusive related to ssd only

So not only does it have nothing to do with performance, it's not even limited to SSDs..

What was your point again? That you've seen buggy hardware? Welcome to the world.

My point is plain simple Monky:
- keep my buz working sane
- keep best from a limited budget
- extract best long productive life from my tools (investments)
- and in this case if possible even help others with some gotchas..

nasty Corporate folks make all this simple issues a miserable day/day

I am doing fine.
Paul

[Monkeh]

And again we see you have nothing at all to back up your claims.

'nasty corporate folk' are, in this case, trying to make sure you can buy a better computer.

[madires]

In some cases it's the flimsy SATA cable. I had this a few times over the years.

[PKTKS]

In some cases it's the flimsy SATA cable. I had this a few times over the years.

That is correct. about 50% at least the cable should be checked.
You can tweak libata and confirm that.

Other cases not so simple are on BIOS and is not that simple
But w/some clues can also be work around about 80% cases.

However..  the upgrade from HD to SSD is not that direct.
Several factors play a role

Of course.. some creatures just solve their problems ditching things in wasteland
..hoping for the better buying new stuff..  biased by propaganda as if they are perfect..

soon or later other problems arise.. IT has been a dog catch tail like this

Paul

[free_electron]

Some SSDs struggle to achieve SATA speeds... (cable.. host... firmware..)

can you share at least one example please ?

Not sure how  but the symptoms are in the log files...

LIBATA TIMEOUT...  RESETTING DEVICE...

shitty cables are the top culprits

Second comes the host ahci bios

Very common on cheapos

Btw .. so far always fixed with proper libata setup...  when even the best cable is not ok

Paul

so you blame the drive when in reality you admit it is the operating system (libata), the cables and the bios of the motherboard.  the word bass-ackwards comes to mind

[PKTKS]

No my dear I blame nothing nichts...

It just happens...  ad hoc by mixing some brands and BIOS and cables

I have 2 mobos with this issue.
Could barely solve the timeouts by placing a short cable.

However it solved libata timeouts for good.. it did *NOT* solved the BIOS A2 issue
Even w the latest mobo reflash

Give me a break and stop screwing up plain simple facts..

IT industry has been a mad house - that is what it is

Buying new shit never solved that... i doubt it will

Paul 

[PKTKS]

for those just mindless promoting solid state fast replacement..

add up this RATIONALE  and help them to flood the wasteland landfills

https://www.techpowerup.com/296214/steam-deck-engineer-says-ssd-mods-will-significantly-reduce-lifetime-of-the-device

2 cents of jambo...  literally blaming no one.

Paul

PS .... and for these folks still  locked in the MS proprietary wonderland API of windows  widgets and  binary blobs of nonsense GUI thingos...

IgorsLab is putting a nice help to try  to find the odds and bugs and flaws nobody can actually see on this shitty OS...  they are deeply buried and hidden and a LOT  of effort need to be done with THOUSAND clicks to find a simple error glitch.

https://www.igorslab.de/en/troubleshooting/

you know..  ALL TOOLS were not by chance removed from the OS replaced with shitty gui widgets..
have fun crawling these gui applets

[Ranayna]

Seriously? That statement by Valve is an argument against recommending SSDs?
Guess what: There already *is* an SSD in the larger variants of the Steam Deck.

What Valve is doing here, is recommending against a specific kind of upgrade, replacing a physically smaller SSD with a larger one that only fits the case when you modify some cooling pads.
The issue here is not at all with SSD tech directly. It is primarily a cooling issue, since you have to mod the existing cooling pads, larger SSDs tend to get hotter, and the charging chip - which gets hot - is located nearby.

[PKTKS]

well...

we all know that is inevitable all miniaturized solid state (and probably locked) media.
remaining question is when HARD disks will be 100% not viable.

On the other side... we also all know that SSD wear out ... pretty soon depending on the file system and target use.. (NVRs for instance)

so... while this is not happening.. IT DOES MAKE SENSE .. to extend the invested money..

and keep wastelands a little bit longer away..

Paul

[bd139]

PKTKS please get with the times. Your entire world view appears to be backwards nonsense. If you were born 40 years before your time, I'm sure you'd be crowing the golden age of the typewriter.

They are smaller, faster and more reliable than mechanical disks. Simple.

The only reason to buy mechanical disks now is if you want to store lots of data you don't give a crap about cheaply.

The Steam thing is just shitty engineering if it's that sensitive to power delivery. What do you expect when you cram a PC in a handheld form factor? Who the hell though that was a good idea?

As for SSD wear, oh goody they wear out. Yes they do. So do brains evidently. But it's actually not possible to write that quantity of data to a mechanical disk under the 50% MTBF window because the bastard things are so slow!!!!

[free_electron]

I'm sure you'd be crowing the golden age of the typewriter.

Typewriters are bad. It puts scribes and monks out of business , it is too easy to make documents , it's a push from the metal manufacturers, smithing guilds and mechanics to push their agenda and once you bought the damn thing you need to keep buying ribbons at exorbitant prices ! When it breaks own it is nearly irreparable because there are no manuals and nobody has published an open source variant you can assemble yourself. The user interface is shit, the letters are all out of order , it rattles, it uses carriage return/linefeed and one in a while the heads jam and you end up with black fingers trying to unjam them.

Better off with a turkey feather and hand ground black ink.

the P in PKTKS stands for Paranoid

[PKTKS]

Nahn  P stands for Paul
BTW
I am changing my hds to ssds for a while...
Actually buying in dozen and dup them in quads to prevent bad mishaps

Due to price obviously and size
So far so good the annoying trouble was the A2 ISSUEs solved with some clever work arounds

No paranoid just extra costs

Paul

ps  that pack of shit stands just for a bench rack server

[Monkeh]

What is that, KingDian or something?

Steamdeck can't support higher power SSDs because it's a mobile device. It has compromises, because that's engineering.

[free_electron]

What is that, KingDian or something?

  so the problem is with the os , the cables , and the bios and the TOTAL UTTER CRAP DRIVES you buy.

Why don't you buy a nice Sandisk, Western digital,  PNY, Crucial or Samsung SSD ?

You are blaming an entire technology but the root problem is that your rig is made from the cheapest spit, wooden sticks and ducktape (knock off duct-tape)

[Mechatrommer]

I haven't   seen this so superior performance SSDxHDD
Carefully chosen HDs still outperform a wide range of SSD.. at least the average joe consumer seen.

pure bullshit of the year... i moved to SSD (for OS) about 10 years ago and never looked back, i'm talking like 10x speed improvement the first time i installed it on WinXP, and my first SSD is still around, Intel brand (because there was not much option to choose from back then, now i usually buy Kingston or Sandisk or anything of similar grade). The proper title of the thread should be... "M$ is to far too late to enforce SSD"

We should thank MS for not mandating booting from the cloud.
Yet.

It's almost that bad already. Some versions of Windows 10 and newer force you to have a Microsoft account (don't get that confused with a corporate Azure or M365 account, that's different again) and there is no way you can bypass it if you want to use your computer with a fresh install.

you certainly missed the "Skip" button during the install...

[Ranayna]

you certainly missed the "Skip" button during the install...

Windows 11 Home Edition does not have a Skip button anymore.
There are some tricks to still skip, but that technically gets you into an unsupported state, which may, or may not, affect upgrades in the future.

Apparently, though this is not confirmed yet, the same will be true for the next Version of Windows 11 Pro, 22H2

[bd139]

Yes there is no skip button even on windows enterprise. You have to do a corporate install via InTune or set up with a Microsoft account.

What is that, KingDian or something?

  so the problem is with the os , the cables , and the bios and the TOTAL UTTER CRAP DRIVES you buy.

Why don't you buy a nice Sandisk, Western digital,  PNY, Crucial or Samsung SSD ?

You are blaming an entire technology but the root problem is that your rig is made from the cheapest spit, wooden sticks and ducktape (knock off duct-tape)

And there’s the money shot 

[Ranayna]

Yes there is no skip button even on windows enterprise. You have to do a corporate install via InTune or set up with a Microsoft account.

Really? That is new for me, but we do not use Windows 11 yet at my company.
And, as far as i know, that is the case for the Windows 11 22H2 insider version, you can still join a domain during installation, letting you skip setting up a MS account.

[bd139]

Yea you can join a domain still.

I’ve got zero windows machines in my house as of next week so dodged that. Instead I chose to sign into iCloud (I don’t have to if I don’t want to - it’s optional!)

[Ranayna]

Yeah... I am following and participating in a couple discussions about this topic. It's ridiculous how many people do not realize that even Apple still has the Apple ID as optional. Even on the frigging iPhone/iPad it's optional. Granted, those devices will only have limited use without Store access, but - without having tested it - i would assume some of the pre-installed Apps work.

So many people are actually arguing in *favor* of the forced Microsoft account, it's unbelievable.
Or are saying: "Apple and google are doing it, why can't Microsoft?"
Or: "You surely have a Facebook/Google/Apple/<whatever> Account, what is one more?"

A couple of years ago i set my "red line": I will never use a MS account to sign in to my computer. A couple of months ago, when the account requirement even for Pro was first rumoured, i took the leap and followed through: Even though Windows 10 is still supported, i installed Manjaro on my box.

And what can i say: In the couple of years since my last test of Linux, Linux made leaps and bounds, especially in gaming. For the majority of Steam games it works just as well, if not even better, than Windows.

I am still in a stage where i go around telling People that Linux can work for them now. I don't think i convinced many of them 
But i can't stop trying yet. 

[bd139]

I stopped trying to convince people because they don’t want it or don’t care. It’s is tool to them and the less time they spend thinking about it the better it is for them. Also my day job is basically dealing with large masses of Linux infrastructure and software and I’ve been doing that and unix for about 25 years now. It’s still nowhere near usable for me on the desktop annoyingly. Too many people doing interesting changes rather than dealing with quality issues. And some of the open source software is dire (libreoffice I’m looking at you).

As I think i said on another thread I can walk into a high street here, pick up a 64 bit RISC laptop with a proper unix implementation and just use it. If I want a linux box I can rent a preconfigured one from Amazon or Linode. Who won? The users did in the end!

And that’s as much of a shit as I give these days and that’s more of a shit than most users 

[Ranayna]

In the forums i am active, many users are not even aware of alternatives. Or they think that Linux is crap because they heard something about it 10 years ago. We are totally offtopic at the moment, but that reminds me a bit of the OP

I know i cannot force anyone to use Linux. But i can make people aware of the alternatives. And i think i might have useful insights as someone who just recently made the switch.

[Mechatrommer]

you certainly missed the "Skip" button during the install...

Windows 11 Home Edition does not have a Skip button anymore.

the context was about the latest Win10 install... if windows asks (enforced) stupid thing then you give it stupid thing.. just create a dormant or whatever M$ account. did anyone complaint that we must have google account in order to own an android phone? i have one (M$ account) that i've forgotten. only to remember it back when i tried to make a new install on another PC, some avatar appeared and now i remember thats the account i used when i make install on my wife's laptop. so the new PC and my wife's laptop probably can be synched, isnt that nice?  about linux matter... its amazing when there is M$ discussion someone will bring it up, i'm too tired to reply, but to quote whats dom said fast furious... "winning is winning" i tried linux few years back, my thinking didnt change from 20 years ago about it...

[PKTKS]

Monky... i have dozen batches... 

putting the cheeky snobbery aside...
if you spare a small time to inspect these cheap simple gizmos...

You will be surprised and outraged paying just a case brand label..

inside they use very much a small group of same chipsets and memory brands...

Paul

[Monkeh]

The crab of failure and some flash rejected by larger manufacturers.

[bd139]

LOL Realtek. Fuck those wankers.

[Ranayna]

about linux matter... its amazing when there is M$ discussion someone will bring it up, i'm too tired to reply, but to quote whats dom said fast furious... "winning is winning" i tried linux few years back, my thinking didnt change from 20 years ago about it...

Well, what else do you want to talk about, when you are complaining about changes that MS makes?
Of course you can just take it. But why complain then? I don't think MS ever made major changes because of customer complaints, except maybe the expanded support time for Windows 7. You will not be able to motivate the behemoth to change, as long as it does not hurt them financially.

You can show alternatives to the user. What alternatives are there? Not many, it boils down to MacOS or Linux.
MacOS is just another golden cage, though astonishingly even less so, than Windows is soon. Also it is expensive, since you need new hardware.
In the last few years, Linux made significant steps in usability. That is my own experience, as someone who looked at it several times, with several years in between. Outside of troubleshooting, i never had to use the command line once.
It is not fully there yet, but not much is missing. The biggest hurdle will be to overcome the paralysis of choice, as there are just too many options to choose from for a layman. And of course you need to invest time, but that is true for a new version of Windows as well.

[bd139]

Linux is the most expensive tool if you value your time...

[free_electron]

You can show alternatives to the user. What alternatives are there? Not many, it boils down to MacOS or Linux.
In the last few years, Linux made significant steps in usability.
there are just too many options to choose from for a layman.

People don't use operating systems, they use APPLICATIONS. A lot of it is windows only , some of it is mac only , a lot of open source runs on all .. why would you go for linux ?
As long as windows applications cannot be installed with ease and run directly on linux it will never be a viable desktop option. There's nothing wrong with the OS itself, its a lack of (familiar) applications.
And no, the substitutes are just not the same. They may be similar, but different enough that it becomes a turn-off.
if i look at what i use on a daily basis then i don't need linux. (and i use several programs that come from the open source world)

YASTL : Yet Another System To Learn ...

[bd139]

This is sort of why I use a Mac. It's Unix underneath which is handy for some stuff I do. Plus it runs Photoshop and Lightroom which is the other stuff I do

[Mechatrommer]

..why I use a Mac...

$$$

[bd139]

Yes and no. Highest capital cost. Lowest total cost of ownership factoring in maintenance time, risk and productivity.

I paid the 14" MacBook Pro off in three days of contract work. It is fully warrantied for every possible outcome for 3 years. Hence cheap.

[Mechatrommer]

It is fully warrantied for every possible outcome for 3 years

nice gimmick! if i have that kind of pay i buy something else, and another something else...

[bd139]

I bought two as well. I have a MacBook Air as a backup machine.

I don’t get to fuck around with reliability here.