Branded vs Assembled PC

[Mechatrommer]

A well built DIY PC can certainly last. I built mine 8 years ago and it's approaching 60,000 operating hours according to the main SSD, only major component replaced was the GPU in order to add 4K compatibility.

huh? i guess that tiffany yap screen has been living much longer than that? and i almost dont see the camouflaged naomi "the big b**b" wu figurine down there that must be recent... you can PM me for better model talking about "well built" with transparent side cover, big chunk CPU fan and all... here is 12yrs old a gift for your pet hates... it has 3d transparent side cover, it means you can poke your hand inside and have your finger cut if you ever reach the cpu fan, note the disconnected GPU fan cable there (white) now its running passive cooling (ATI Radeoan HD 4650). and i bet you didnt log like me (last attachment)

[BravoV]

...huh? i guess that tiffany yap ...

It publicly known as he is so proud of his obsession ... for years. 

[NiHaoMike]

Tiffany Yep got me into FPGA programming which was a big reason I decided to build a new PC to begin with. What she didn't tell me was how hard FPGA programming is, so I didn't do it nearly as much as I hoped for. I'm finally getting into it a lot more because of my interest in solar power and the lack of cheap inverters with the features I want. I'm learning a lot more about DSP and Verilog in the process than I did in school, with the bonus that learning at home is affected little by COVID.

Naomi Wu got me into 3D printing, but the only upgrades to the PC I made because of that are the figurine to stop the GPU from sagging, an angled mount for some LED strips, and a small bracket to hold a quad Gigabit NIC in place. My experience getting back into 3D CAD was definitely a lot better than it was when I first learned it back in 2004 due to the vast increase in GPU performance since then, plus photorealistic rendering is not needed for 3D printing.

[Bassman59]

Tiffany Yep got me into FPGA programming which was a big reason I decided to build a new PC to begin with. What she didn't tell me was how hard FPGA programming is, so I didn't do it nearly as much as I hoped for. I'm finally getting into it a lot more because of my interest in solar power and the lack of cheap inverters with the features I want. I'm learning a lot more about DSP and Verilog in the process than I did in school, with the bonus that learning at home is affected little by COVID.

"FPGA programming" is hard because it's digital logic circuit design with a high-density implementation. If you came to FPGAs from that kind of background, like I did, the design tasks are familiar. There's nothing new there about logic design or timing analysis or any of it. It's all about learning (and fighting with) the tools and of course learning the implementation language.

Of course it helps to have a real project you want to do when you jump in.

Naomi Wu got me into 3D printing, but the only upgrades to the PC I made because of that are the figurine to stop the GPU from sagging, an angled mount for some LED strips, and a small bracket to hold a quad Gigabit NIC in place. My experience getting back into 3D CAD was definitely a lot better than it was when I first learned it back in 2004 due to the vast increase in GPU performance since then, plus photorealistic rendering is not needed for 3D printing.

I got into 3D printing only recently, and it was to meet a specific need. Enclosures for electronics are necessary and for one-offs and prototypes, getting a custom enclosure made is a non-starter and modifying the panels on, say, a Hammond extrusion is possible but I don't have the tools for that. So 3D printing boxes and panels is reasonable. Of course, the learning curve is shallow -- you need to learn a 3D design package (I am using Autodesk Fusion360 and it works well), and you have to learn packaging design. A mechanical engineer with a background in the latter can pick up any design tool fairly quickly since the vocabulary used comes directly from the ME literature. I had to learn both. But it's not all that difficult.

One thing I re-learned doing these little boxes is that a design is really only as good as your models. If the 3D model of a rotary encoder or a switch is not correct, your circuit board won't fit in your box. But, hmmm -- that's exactly the same thing as in FPGA design. If the model of a peripheral to which your FPGA connects is not correct, then your design won't work.

Anyway -- both FPGAs and 3D printing are things you learn because you have a problem to solve and those technologies offer ways to do that. Otherwise, there's no point to learning them, as you won't really "learn" them enough to become proficient. You can 3D print a baby Yoda but have you really learned how to do that?

[Bassman59]

I've never gone much on 'Branding'.  Some people say that... "Well my computer is a 'Dell' " or what ever.
However, they have 'Brand-A' memory cards, 'Brand-B' hard-drives, 'Brand-C' CD/DVD drives, etc etc.

My car is a Honda. It has tires made by Michelin. It has other parts made by non-Honda manufacturers. So is it really a Honda?

[Bassman59]

Tiffany Yep got me into FPGA programming which was a big reason I decided to build a new PC to begin with. What she didn't tell me was how hard FPGA programming is, so I didn't do it nearly as much as I hoped for. I'm finally getting into it a lot more because of my interest in solar power and the lack of cheap inverters with the features I want. I'm learning a lot more about DSP and Verilog in the process than I did in school, with the bonus that learning at home is affected little by COVID.

"FPGA programming" is hard because it's digital logic circuit design with a high-density implementation. If you came to FPGAs from that kind of background, like I did, the design tasks are familiar. There's nothing new there about logic design or timing analysis or any of it. It's all about learning (and fighting with) the tools and of course learning the implementation language.

Of course it helps to have a real project you want to do when you jump in.

he's been reiterating that since eon... tiffany<->fpga<->power electronics, its all circling around that...no new story

I suppose that's what separates the hobbyists like Mike from the professionals.

[NiHaoMike]

I got into 3D printing only recently, and it was to meet a specific need. Enclosures for electronics are necessary and for one-offs and prototypes, getting a custom enclosure made is a non-starter and modifying the panels on, say, a Hammond extrusion is possible but I don't have the tools for that. So 3D printing boxes and panels is reasonable. Of course, the learning curve is shallow -- you need to learn a 3D design package (I am using Autodesk Fusion360 and it works well), and you have to learn packaging design. A mechanical engineer with a background in the latter can pick up any design tool fairly quickly since the vocabulary used comes directly from the ME literature. I had to learn both. But it's not all that difficult.

One thing I re-learned doing these little boxes is that a design is really only as good as your models. If the 3D model of a rotary encoder or a switch is not correct, your circuit board won't fit in your box. But, hmmm -- that's exactly the same thing as in FPGA design. If the model of a peripheral to which your FPGA connects is not correct, then your design won't work.

Rather than trying to find the dimensions of a part with an online search, I just use a pair of calipers to check the part I have. Basically a more precise version of many CAD assignments in school - turn a physical object into a CAD drawing.

I suppose that's what separates the hobbyists like Mike from the professionals.

Tiffany is indeed a professional while I'm just starting FPGA and DSP programming from scratch. But what's more unusual is that thus far, she's the only one I know in real life who sometimes does that for fun. I have met a few other FPGA programmers but none of them seemed interested in it the way Tiffany is. Granted, there's not that many out there (compared to other engineers in electrical and computer engineering) so it's probably pure luck that I know one who is truly into it.

In fairness, I don't know any software engineers in real life who play around with PICs and 8051s for fun - Arduino is the norm for hobbyists. Most aren't interested in trying to implement the functionally in the cheapest microcontroller that could do it, but rather just cobble something together with an Arduino to quickly solve what they're trying to solve.

[Bassman59]

I got into 3D printing only recently, and it was to meet a specific need. Enclosures for electronics are necessary and for one-offs and prototypes, getting a custom enclosure made is a non-starter and modifying the panels on, say, a Hammond extrusion is possible but I don't have the tools for that. So 3D printing boxes and panels is reasonable. Of course, the learning curve is shallow -- you need to learn a 3D design package (I am using Autodesk Fusion360 and it works well), and you have to learn packaging design. A mechanical engineer with a background in the latter can pick up any design tool fairly quickly since the vocabulary used comes directly from the ME literature. I had to learn both. But it's not all that difficult.

One thing I re-learned doing these little boxes is that a design is really only as good as your models. If the 3D model of a rotary encoder or a switch is not correct, your circuit board won't fit in your box. But, hmmm -- that's exactly the same thing as in FPGA design. If the model of a peripheral to which your FPGA connects is not correct, then your design won't work.

Rather than trying to find the dimensions of a part with an online search, I just use a pair of calipers to check the part I have. Basically a more precise version of many CAD assignments in school - turn a physical object into a CAD drawing.

I've gotten into the habit of verifying real parts vs what is stated in the data sheets or in the model. I just did a thing where I used a rotary encoder with an RGB LED lighting up the clear shaft. I chose a Bournes part for the design. Bournes has a model and I put it in my design (it's in the Kicad footprint). At some point I found that Sparkfun had a similar part with the same footprint and it was a buck cheaper so I bought that one instead. Yeah, the footprint for the pins in the PCB was the same, but the body was not the same at all, and I discovered that when I 3D printed a prototype enclosure. Oops. Sparkfun doesn't offer a 3D model of the part, nor does the actual manufacturer, so I ended up doing a model in F360. (Which wasn't all that difficult.) Still, I'd rather have vendor-provided models.

And that vendor-provided models thing applies to FPGA designs. How do I know that a model I made of some device based on the data sheet is correct? I mean, it would be nice if the A/D and D/A vendors had bus-functional models of their devices. Instead I write my own. Which I have to verify against measurements on actual hardware.

I suppose that's what separates the hobbyists like Mike from the professionals.

Tiffany is indeed a professional while I'm just starting FPGA and DSP programming from scratch. But what's more unusual is that thus far, she's the only one I know in real life who sometimes does that for fun. I have met a few other FPGA programmers but none of them seemed interested in it the way Tiffany is. Granted, there's not that many out there (compared to other engineers in electrical and computer engineering) so it's probably pure luck that I know one who is truly into it.

I've been doing FPGAs long enough to remember that there was no way a hobbyist even had a chance. Xilinx' first WebPack was really the starting point for engineers to do FPGA designs without having to spend a fortune on development tools. (Development boards, as such, did not exist.) So maybe for me it's not that I do them "for fun" but when I do personal projects I can choose to use an FPGA if it makes sense. After all, they are just another tool in the kit. I choose to use microcontrollers where they make more sense.

Am I "into it?" I dunno; the silly things have paid my mortgage for the last two decades.

In fairness, I don't know any software engineers in real life who play around with PICs and 8051s for fun - Arduino is the norm for hobbyists. Most aren't interested in trying to implement the functionally in the cheapest microcontroller that could do it, but rather just cobble something together with an Arduino to quickly solve what they're trying to solve.

Well, I'm an embedded hardware guy, so I'll say up front that for my personal projects I'll use an SiLabs 8051 if it makes sense, or an ARM Cortex. It's not about finding the cheapest device. It's about finding the device that has the peripherals needed to implement the design. Picking the processor and shoehorning it into the design is rather backwards, I think. So, for say, a design that used MIDI over (full speed) USB, I used an EFM8UB2. Worked like a champ, easy to get going, not too expensive. Would an Arduino work? I think so; there's a MIDI library available for it. But the design had to "other stuff" and making the Arduino system work was too annoying and getting the other peripherals on the EFM8 up and running as I needed took really no time at all.  Porting that code to EFM32GG was not that difficult, either, as SiLabs' USB library is sane and is basically the same between the two processor families.

Sure, my familiarity with the EFM8 (and previously the 8051) parts and tools made this fairly straightforward. It's a tool in the kit.

A thing I'm doing now needs Ethernet (100 Mb is fine) as well as High Speed USB, so EFM8 (and all EFM32 parts, too) are out. TI's Tiva M4 or MSP432 fits the bill. So does SAME70 and LPC55S28. I find I'm spending more time trying to work out how sending http POST messages from a computer and getting the micro to turn them into "send a byte out the SPI port" commands than anything else. TI even has examples of how to do this. It's just a lot to work through.

[Haenk]

Branded vs self-built is the eternal question, still unanswered in 2020.
Build your own computer offers benefits as using standard components (easy to exchange), control over the build quality and using the parts you really want. Will it work flawless? One never knows in advance. And it is usually not cheaper to DIY.
Branded computers are a mixed bag of stuff - OEM components which might require support contracts to receive security patches (yes, I'm looking at you, HP), or similar-sounding OEM parts (GFX), that are 2 generations behind. However those systems usually work out of the box and don't require much work to be used (other than initial updating).

For our server stuff, we use "HP" - however HP won't let you receive security and stability patches, once you are out of warranty (or spend 50% of the purchase price for a service contract). On the upside, the system (in theory) just works and you can buy supported options, that will fit (cages, controller, cables etc.) On the downside, even the used majpr brand components do fail. On the G9 server, the redundant PSUs surely did fail, only to be later recalled. One RAID controller died, the replacement died a bit later, too. So not sure if I could really recommend that.

The DIY-side is not trouble-free either. The personal workstations will be done individually by myself and configured to individual need. The usual hickups like new CPU not supported by motherboard etc., but after all, it does work. Not so my pet NAS project, SuperMicro with 24x8TB, which initially ran fine. Only to later learn, that the BIOS has a bug, which is triggered by newer Windows OS versions, anad SuperMicro does not care to fix. This is the downside of DIY - complex stuff *can* go wrong.

[Electro Fan]

Branded vs assembled is a question that can best be answered after someone determines who the user is and the what the goal is for whoever is paying for the computer.

Whoever is paying for the computer will probably (should) take into consideration the productivity to be achieved with the computer which will in part depend on up-time.  And whoever is paying for the computer will probably (should) also take into consideration the overall (one-time and recurring) costs including not only the cost of the hardware and software and operations support, but also the value of the data being managed on the computer.

If the user is an end user who depends on the computer to accomplish work then the answer is it might not matter whether the computer is branded or assembled.  What matters is who will provide support to keep the machine running and keep the user productive.  If an end user is not going to provide his/her own support then the answer will (should) be influenced by the person who will be doing the support.  If the person who is generally providing support prefers a branded PC, get a branded PC; if the person who is generally providing support prefers an assembled PC, get an assembled PC.

In a similar vein, people sometimes ask whether they should buy a PC or an Apple.  I've always felt that unless the user is going to substantially provide their own support (hardware, software, training, etc.) then the buyer should start with "who is the user going to call when there is a problem?"  If the person who is generally providing support prefers PCs, get a PC; if the person who is generally providing support prefers Apple, get an Apple.

If the end user and the primary source of support are indifferent, and the overall cost is comparable, then it's a coin flip.  If it isn't either a clear decision or a nonchalant coin flip the economic buyer usually gets to break any ties.

If on the other hand the user is largely technologically self-sufficient and they are planning to do their own support and the overall cost is comparable, whatever trips the user's trigger because they will have to live with any hardware, software, or training/operations matters.  For such users the answer might still be driven by the value of time and the impact of productivity, or it might be driven by a desire to explore the leading edge of performance and technology.

So the answer is - it depends on who the user is, who will provide support, and what's the economic impact to the buyer.  Sometimes all three roles are performed by one person, sometimes by two people, and sometimes by three people.  Getting the objectives of all three roles linked and aligned is the key to success.

[Wuerstchenhund]

For our server stuff, we use "HP" - however HP won't let you receive security and stability patches, once you are out of warranty (or spend 50% of the purchase price for a service contract).

I hear that often but that's simply not true. HPE (it's no longer HP now, as HP has split out the server division into a separate company called HPE several years ago) only requires an active warranty or support contract for regular *BIOS* updates and the Service Pack for Proliant (SPP). Everything else for ProLiants (drivers, software tools, firmware) does not and can simply be downloaded from the HPE website.

In addition, the warranty/service contract requirement for BIOS updates is only for regular (i.e. non-critical) BIOS updates. Every BIOS update which contained a security fix has been free as well.

Getting the latest SPP also requires an active warranty or service contract but since the SPP is merely a collection of drivers and software which can be downloaded individually from the HPE website this shouldn't be much of a problem.

On the upside, the system (in theory) just works and you can buy supported options, that will fit (cages, controller, cables etc.)

It's not just that. There is simply nothing out there which comes close to iLO (HPE's remote management) and iDRAC (Dell's equivalent). And it's not just that everyting works together, it's all also certified for a range of software.

On the downside, even the used majpr brand components do fail. On the G9 server, the redundant PSUs surely did fail, only to be later recalled. One RAID controller died, the replacement died a bit later, too. So not sure if I could really recommend that.

Yes, that happens. We had a few problems with G9 mainboards and PSUs but it's not been an issue as the servers are all under support so everything gets fixed quickly.

Our older Gen 8s have all been rock solid as have been the Gen10s we have.

Same with our Dell servers.

The DIY-side is not trouble-free either. The personal workstations will be done individually by myself and configured to individual need. The usual hickups like new CPU not supported by motherboard etc., but after all, it does work. Not so my pet NAS project, SuperMicro with 24x8TB, which initially ran fine. Only to later learn, that the BIOS has a bug, which is triggered by newer Windows OS versions, anad SuperMicro does not care to fix. This is the downside of DIY - complex stuff *can* go wrong.

We had a client who wanted to save costs by going with SuperMicro, and they regreted it. Don't get me wrong, it's OK stuff, but it can't hold a candle to the hardware we get from HP and Dell. What's worse though is that SuperMicro is regularly dragging it's feet to address security issues in their crappy remote management solution.

The funny thing is that SuperMicro wasn't even any cheaper (their list price is lower but project prices for SuperMicro are usually the same or even slightly higher than HPE or Dell).

[BravoV]

For our server stuff, we use "HP" - however HP won't let you receive security and stability patches, once you are out of warranty (or spend 50% of the purchase price for a service contract).

In the context of corporation/company used PCs either workstations or servers, the idea of once purchased, the manufacturer must provide support forever  , even just software patches (not hardware) is not realistic, c'mon. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

Branded vs self-built is the eternal question, still unanswered in 2020.

I think it's actually pretty simple:

If it's for personal use:

- If you're an "enthusiast", i.e. you like customizing stuff and are into blinkenlights, transparent cases and such stuff then self-building it is. If you have the time and patience it's a great hobby. Parts quality can vary widely (the focus os on features and bling, not reliability) and product cycles are generally short so later warranty replacements are often with parts that are similar but not exactly the same.

- If you're not and just want a reliable PC then the two big brands (Dell, HP) can be a good choice. Others (like Acer) not so much, though.


If it's for business use:

- Self-building isn't economical outside specific niche cases

- Big brand business class is the best option


As to branded hardware:

   - Brand name consumer PCs (the ones you find at Best Buys or other retail outlets) are generally between OK-ish to pure crap. Components are usually selected on lowest cost only, and expect to find it loaded with crapware. Most brands don't deal with consumer PCs themselves but license out their brand to some assembler outfit which then sticks it on their hardware. Usually the support is also provided by the assembler and can vary widely.
   
   The only decent brand name consumer PCs I've seen are the ones from Dell (which includes Alienware) which are generally good as is their service.

   In general, if branded I recommend to stick with the business class PCs. These are generally buuilt for reliability and easy maintenance, and benefit from business class support. And often aren't even more expensive than consumer crap.

   - Brand name workstations are also very reliable and come with powerful hardware. In addition, they can easily endure continuous operation under excessive load and carry certifications for a wide range of professional applications (which are normally required should you want to make use of ISV support), which is one reason why they are expensive. This is also the class where one can find dual processor machines.
   
   - Since there haven't been any huge leaps in CPU performance in the last years, for personal use I would also consider to buy a 2nd hand business class PC or workstation. While it doesn't offer the ultimate latest in performance, CPUs and large memory can often be found at lower prices.

   - Proprietary parts: brand name computers often use proprietary parts like PSUs, mainboard form factors or fan connectors. But the majority of replaceable parts like CPU, RAM, storage etc is bog standard. And even for the few parts that are proprietary there usually is a good supply of parts thanks to the logetivity and ubiquity of these business class PCs and workstations.

[Wuerstchenhund]

For our server stuff, we use "HP" - however HP won't let you receive security and stability patches, once you are out of warranty (or spend 50% of the purchase price for a service contract).

In the context of corporation/company used PCs either workstations or servers, the idea of once purchased, the manufacturer must provide support forever  , even just software patches (not hardware) is not realistic, c'mon. 

True, but HP/HPE and even Dell generally support their hardware much longer than anyone else. Especially HP/HPE as they generally offer BIOS and firmware updates for older kit than other brands. And in HPE's case, BIOS updates containing security fixes are actually free anyways (and HP does not require warranty or support for BIOS updates, which are always free).

[BravoV]

For our server stuff, we use "HP" - however HP won't let you receive security and stability patches, once you are out of warranty (or spend 50% of the purchase price for a service contract).

In the context of corporation/company used PCs either workstations or servers, the idea of once purchased, the manufacturer must provide support forever  , even just software patches (not hardware) is not realistic, c'mon. 

True, but HP/HPE and even Dell generally support their hardware much longer than anyone else. Especially HP/HPE as they generally offer BIOS and firmware updates for older kit than other brands. And in HPE's case, BIOS updates containing security fixes are actually free anyways (and HP does not require warranty or support for BIOS updates, which are always free).

And that is a sign of goodwill and true value from those companies, they're spending resources just to maintain reputation, which is essential and should be valued and praised.

Not legally, but "ethically" , once the warranty is expired, they just do not have any obligation at all to keep supporting their hardware nor software, no matter how trivial.

Sometimes certain people seeing those programmer fixing BIOS is working for free, aren't they ? 

[Wuerstchenhund]

True, but HP/HPE and even Dell generally support their hardware much longer than anyone else. Especially HP/HPE as they generally offer BIOS and firmware updates for older kit than other brands. And in HPE's case, BIOS updates containing security fixes are actually free anyways (and HP does not require warranty or support for BIOS updates, which are always free).

And that is a sign of goodwill and true value from those companies, they're spending resources just to maintain reputation, which is essential and should be valued and praised.

Not legally, but "ethically" , once the warranty is expired, they just do not have any obligation at all to keep supporting their hardware nor software, no matter how trivial.

Sometimes certain people seeing those programmer fixing BIOS is working for free, aren't they ? 

No, you are absolutely right. There is no right to eternal support.

And at least with the big brands like HP and Dell, you at least know how long you get support  (usually 5 to 7 years). With consumer grade PCs or self-build component manufacturers like Asus, Gigabyte and such you can only pray and hope.

[BravoV]

And at least with the big brands like HP and Dell, you at least know how long you get support  (usually 5 to 7 years). With consumer grade PCs or self-build component manufacturers like Asus, Gigabyte and such you can only pray and hope.

+1

Just look at the custom PC forums, even big name like Asus, Gigabyte and etc, even under warranty period, expecting them to fix bug like BIOS or firmware, nothing hardware at all, basically depends on your luck. 

Personally I witnessed at a big company which used top global brand, thousands of PCs and so many servers deployed, all under maintenance of course, and one day there was a nasty bug discovered at the OS driver by the IT team, its reported and filed, the problem was escalated really fast and was solved with new driver update sent within < 1 week as per SLA.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Just look at the custom PC forums, even big name like Asus, Gigabyte and etc, even under warranty period, expecting them to fix bug like BIOS or firmware, nothing hardware at all, basically depends on your luck. 

Indeed.

The other problem are the short product cycles. Even if your component (e.g. a mainboard) has 3 years warranty it doesn't mean you get the exact same board as replacement should the original one die say 2 years into the warranty. Pretty much all manufacturers of generic PC parts reserve the right to replace with a different part of the same class/category. Which for business use is pretty bad because you can no longer just rely on replace & power on as the replacement may well require different drivers, and on top of that introduce new incompatibilities or other problems.

Personally I witnessed at a big company which used top global brand, thousands of PCs and so many servers deployed, all under maintenance of course, and one day there was a nasty bug discovered at the OS driver by the IT team, its reported and filed, the problem was escalated really fast and was solved with new driver update sent within < 1 week as per SLA.

I've seen the same with a a few bugs from HP (before they moved the server part into HPE) and also from Dell.

But it's not just for fixing bugs. Case in point is my own gaming PC, a HP z620 workstation. This is a Sandy/Ivy Bridge (XEON E5 v1/v2) generation system and when it came out in 2012 the fastest storage option for it was a M.2 AHCI PCIe SSD from HP (z Turbo Drive G1).

Fast forward to today and NVMe is everywhere while AHCI SSDs are dead as a dodo, and the few models that were made are all low capacity, comparatively slow and very difficult to get hold off. The system also predates NVMe which requires BIOS support to boot from it (which only became a thing in the last few years), so all that's left are slow SATA SSDs.

However, HP being HP, they actually added NVMe boot support to the z620 and z820 BIOS in one of the updates a couple of years ago, which means that my good old z620 is now hapily booting from a 3.84TB NVMe SSD I guess HP did that because they ran out of AHCI SSD spares and because these machines are still supported they have to provide spares so adding NVMe support was probably a no-brainer.

Interestingly, Dell did the same to some systems. My primary home server is a Dell PowerEdge T320, and I found out that it, too, happily boots from an NVMe SSD with the current BIOS installed.

The only other manufacturer I know of who did this is Apple for their old Mac Pro 5,1 Series ("Cheesegrater" models from 2010 to 2012), which got NVMe support I think with the last firmware (144.0.0.0?).

[tkamiya]

I stopped building my own PCs years ago.  With prices of ready-made PCs, it doesn't make sense for me anymore.  I often buy Dell or Lenovo, refurbished PCs.  Buying "last year's" product with "obsolete" CPUs, I save quite a bit.  Of course, my needs are meager.  I don't run games or advanced simulations.  Perhaps the most intensive software I run is Adobe Photoshop.

For servers, I have half a dozen of Dell T20.  They may just be dual core with 8 gigs, but they run Linux just fine with barely any load on CPU. 

If I have a specific need, I can still build one.  I still keep up to date on components.  But computer hardware stopped being my hobby for long time.  They are just commodity for me.  So I take the path of least expense and resistance.

[VK3DRB]

I have a lot of experience in this area, having built clones for myself and others for 30 years and worked in engineering at IBM designing and building genuine personal computers for 13 years. Have had Dells and a host of others etc.

If you do your homework, home brew)PCs are much better bang per buck, but you have to do your homework. That comes with risk of compatibility issues.

I have a Gigabyte B450M mobo with an AMD Ryzen CPU and 64GB DDR4. Great for Altium.... until Microsoft came out with the Windows 10 update 2004 recently which caused an intermittent hanging of the PC. I put up with this for a month until Gigabyte had to release a mobo chipset driver which cured the problem. I don't know who was at fault - Gigabyte or Microsoft. My guess is the latter. A similar thing can happen with graphics cards (NEVER buy the latest high end graphics card). Usually if you go buy the latest near leading edge, it can take up to a year until all the software/firmware issues are ironed out.

With a named brand off-the-shelf PC, there is less chances of things not working and if they don't there is usually a quick fix. These machines - especially Dell - are loaded up with bloatware, crapware and moronware. At least when you build your own, your don't have to install this sort of stuff. Gigabyte has plenty of crapware you can download and install your machine if you so desire.

[Mechatrommer]

With a named brand off-the-shelf PC, there is less chances of things not working and if they don't there is usually a quick fix. These machines - especially Dell - are loaded up with bloatware, crapware and moronware.

SWMBO asked for my consultation service to buy a laptop about 1-2 years ago, so she got an Acer Aspire 5, Win10 prebuilt with small RAM, poor HDD and performance at mortal (not the cheapest nor the most expensive) deal. a year later, on every Win10 startup, Acer dialog box popped out telling some website or service is expiring or not maintained anymore, how annoying, but thats ok since its not mine using it. few weeks ago it becoming unbearable. Ms Word (her main program) stopped working maybe due to license issue, dont ask how Win10 load time degraded during the time, i wouldnt touch it with 10' barge pole. if not because HWMO consultancy service that she begged, she should already wasted more money and time and unfit for work for few weeks sending it back for fresh install. I restored the builtin Win10 that i backupped after purchase (mostly because of courtesy and i know it will save myself in the foreseeable future). uninstall builtin Ms Office and got her latest Office version that is not complaining anymore with $1(opps) license. but the Acer annoying msg from original Win10 is still there. i adviced her to spend additional $50-100 to get 10X the performance from what she experienced now (nvme drive and RAM upgrade) after this covid lockdown, she seemed to agree. the moral, brand or no brand, you'll have somebody working on it for you.

btw, more recently (after that Aspire 5 fiasco) i assembled my own "new" PC (attached), new casing (that i bought 5 years ago as stock, because the old casing's power button is giving up), added more RAM but into the existing 12 years old engine from Reply #26, now i have casing fan with fancy but unecessary leds (with ebay hunglow buck converter on it to reduce fan buzzing noise),  the damaged GPU fan (due to self negligence) is replaced with $3 ebay fan, more "cooler" and more "master" now with transparent side cover and 64 bits OS. i think its time and i can upgrade to i9-10900k or equivalent Ryzen engine but... why waste a perfectly working and acceptable performance machine? its blasphemy. if i want more crunching power, beefed up/modded 12 cores Xeon X5690 in HP Z800 acquired at mortal deal is lying idle over there standing by.

[SilverSolder]

I stopped building my own PCs years ago.  With prices of ready-made PCs, it doesn't make sense for me anymore.  I often buy Dell or Lenovo, refurbished PCs.  Buying "last year's" product with "obsolete" CPUs, I save quite a bit.  Of course, my needs are meager.  I don't run games or advanced simulations.  Perhaps the most intensive software I run is Adobe Photoshop.

For servers, I have half a dozen of Dell T20.  They may just be dual core with 8 gigs, but they run Linux just fine with barely any load on CPU. 

If I have a specific need, I can still build one.  I still keep up to date on components.  But computer hardware stopped being my hobby for long time.  They are just commodity for me.  So I take the path of least expense and resistance.

I still remember the days (90's) when running Photoshop could really tax a PC to its limits (and beyond!).  These days, even a low end PC is fine.  Progress! 

[tkamiya]

Funny you mention that....  I *just* upgraded my machine to i7-9700 PC.  I bought two Lenovo workstations at closeout prices.  I use Photoshop often and i5 from few years ago wasn't cutting it.  My main camera is D800 which makes HUGE raw file.  Load that file and making any global changes will require a pause.

For those folks who commented about bloatware on consumer PCs....
That's true and I hate it.  Business class machines comes with pretty clean installs.  Maybe some demo-ware for anti-virus but that's about it.  I never liked consumer grade boxes.  Not that much cheaper and such a pain to work on.

[bd139]

Interesting thread. Wherever you go it's a shit show.

1. If you buy a PC and build it from parts you end up having to do debugging and risk the whole build failing and you do the support (parts suppliers / amazon).
2. If you buy an off the shelf PC from an independent system builder, you have to put up with the lowest priced parts they could get away with and terrible support (random computer shop).
3. If you buy an off the shelf PC from a large vendor and it doesn't work then you have to argue with them for weeks to get it sorted and sometimes there is no support (Dell/HPE/Lenovo).
4. If you buy premium hardware from a larger vendor they deny there's anything wrong with it if there's an issue but support is good if you can persuade them to deal with it (Apple)

Think the best solution is to buy 2-3 year old ex corporate hardware off ebay. You skip the early failures and let them work out all the support issues and early adopter problems with it. You also write off the largest chunk of depreciation in the life of the computer. And on top of that it's usually pretty easy and cheap to find replacement parts on eBay.

However I'm running custom hardware because I want one attribute you can't just buy off the shelf or retro-fit which is "silence". PC fans whirring away really really fucking annoy the shit out of me. Plus quite frankly I don't mind debugging issues

Two tips though for any PC purchaser:

1. Doesn't matter where it came from, DBAN the whole fucking thing and start again with the windows install. If you didn't install it, it's probably full of crap.
2. Buy everything on a credit card and use that for leverage if shit goes wrong.

[rsjsouza]

I still remember the days (90's) when running Photoshop could really tax a PC to its limits (and beyond!).  These days, even a low end PC is fine.  Progress! 

Maybe it is before the time many people around here, but Photoshop (version 6, IIRC) was the first software that made great use of the then newfangled MMX extensions of the latest models of the Pentium I generation. I remember Intel promoting their compiler which made use of this technology. It was a very large leap for the time.