Author Topic: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?  (Read 10335 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #75 on: March 02, 2023, 12:30:25 am »
Unless I've seriously misunderstood things, and NOT trying to disappoint the OP.

There seem to be many, generic or very generic questions and no real idea of any kind of application(s), requirements, specifications, timescales, Hobby/University/Business, budget (saying really, really cheap but can go very, very expensive, doesn't really clarify the situation, that much), physical location of equipment, relevant equipment already owned and available, general background as to what is going on, etc.

Analogy:
I want an amplifier, cheap!

Would not really be enough on a forum like this, to help that much.
Audio/rf/specialist, output power, budget range, hobby/business, etc etc, to narrow it down.
But E.g. Guitar Amp, up to 50 watts RMS, already got speakers, max cost $200, for my hobby.  Would help a lot.

That's why I gave up trying to help. This is a case of "garbage in, garbage out". There is insufficient input data to produce a useful output beyond "search for Dell, HP or IBM server and sort by price + shipping, lowest first" All attempts to extract additional useful data to input were met with hostility. If there is no specific application or list of desired features, then there is nothing to push any specific server model higher on the list.

"I just want a transistor that's cheap"

"What do you want to do with it?"

"Transistor stuff!"

Ok then go to digikey, search for "transistor" and sort by price. That's the best advice anyone can give in that case, "transistor" and "cheap"are the only criteria given. It does no good to suggest a specific part number without having at least a vague application in mind.
 
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Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #76 on: March 02, 2023, 12:44:35 am »
That's why I gave up trying to help.

You didn't give up, you stopped listening because of imaginary standing on this forum, it leads you to think you can push people around.  I have provided lots of information, if you chose to listen instead of eat up this thread with oblivion posts, you'd see that.  Here, I will repeat the few from my last post. Try reading instead of trying to lead the charge of ganging up on someone.

If you felt I was still vague after below, I invited you and other to find something more interesting to do with your time, but no, your time is better spent here recycling an empty point.  You cant help me. Fine, bye.  But no, you stick around here for what possible reason other than to be an irritant?

Overall: Generic machine with lots of capacity for work, more specifically...
Lots of processing power
Lots of throughput
Modern connection ports, etc
Dual procs
Larger form factor to accommodate change
Intention to work with a SAN
Linux
Emphasis on non-proprietary products
Emphasis on stability and quality
"Snappy" UI experience
Decommissioned price point (hundreds not thousands)
Fairly complete unit, no empty shells
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 12:49:48 am by mapleLC »
 

Online MK14

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #77 on: March 02, 2023, 12:59:25 am »
Its less misunderstanding and seems more wilful.  I provided the car analogy, you have your amp.  The wilful part is sidestepping the information I have provided and, like a few others, remain stuck ramming this notion of specificity before assistance. Read thru the thread looking for what could be crafted into requirements, there are probably 20 from what I have said so far.

The same forum was able to help me decide on a SAN.  Same "computers" subforum.  Strange. 

Overall: Generic machine with lots of capacity for work, more specifically...
Lots of processing power
Lots of throughput
Modern connection ports, etc
Dual procs
Larger form factor to accommodate change
Intention to work with a SAN
Linux
Emphasis on non-proprietary products
Emphasis on stability and quality
"Snappy" UI experience
Decommissioned price point (hundreds not thousands)
Fairly complete unit, no empty shells

I'm afraid I don't understand why this is not enough info because it seems like it is, so something more pedantic is happening, and now we see some people's lack of class is showing.

Thanks for trying to answer the question, but that wouldn't really help.

If that information exists, but in twenty different places, in multi-page threads (there seem to be 2, already).  You can't expect people to read through many pages of stuff, and various text paragraphs, in order to determine a requirements/specification guide, so they know what you want.  That is not really reasonable.

Much of what you said, seems to show that you are climbing the learning experience curve, as regards servers and stuff, rather than being the right sort of information, to help others, help you.

Specific examples:
"Snappy" UI experience"

The users of your server(s) (if there are any, it still is not clear, what it is suppose to be doing), don't communicate with the user interfaces, of the server.  They are only for administrators and such to access.

Or you mean the user interfaces, of the application(s).  In which case, we would need to know, what these applications are, what programming languages, databases, communications protocols etc, are being used.

I'm still not seeing the right information.

You seem to be describing what you think the solution(s) are, and describing those solution(s) in very arbitrary ways.
We would need to know what problem(s), you are trying to solve, and other requirements/specifications and details.

"Lots of processing power"
That can mean a number of things, and is relative/arbitrary.  A Raspberry PI, has lots of processing power, compared to many things, especially ones from the past.
Fast single thread (core) speed, or many cores needed, etc.

Now that you seem to be declaring the budget to be a few hundred dollars.  That doesn't really allow, a huge range of modern computing options.

If you go too cheap, you can end up buying piles of junk, rather than useful bits of kit, especially if you are still climbing the learning curve, as to server technology.

"I'm afraid I don't understand why this is not enough info because it seems like it is, so something more pedantic is happening, and now we see some people's lack of class is showing."

Well if you think that "we" are the problem, I'm not sure that I can do a lot about that.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2023, 01:00:56 am by MK14 »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #78 on: March 02, 2023, 01:13:04 am »
"UI" and "server" don't really belong in the same sentence in general. Most servers have only a very basic video interface, and in many cases it is not even hooked up unless you have the thing on the bench to reinstall the OS or something. Some have no video at all, everything is done via command line in a terminal. Typically all of the ports are very basic, you might have a serial port and a couple of USB ports, the primary interface will be the network adapter(s) as the whole point of a server is serving data over a network. They may have lots of cores, or fast cores, or lots of storage, or redundant storage, lots of RAM, etc, depending on the intended application. If there is no application then there is no reason to pick one configuration over another, may as well shop by price. They're all proprietary, much more so than desktop PCs. They're all high quality and stable. None are really meant to be highly upgradable, servers are typically purchased in a specific configuration and used that way until they are obsolete and decommissioned. The only "upgrade" I can recall ever making was replacing hard disks that failed with larger ones.

Servers get decommissioned because they're old and slow relative to what is available now. By the time a $10k-$30k server is a few hundred bucks it isn't likely to be powerful by any measure compared to contemporary consumer PCs.
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #79 on: March 02, 2023, 11:08:10 am »
I admit your theory has merit.

But, how to tell the difference?
One can never be 100% sure, but owning unusual things for the sake of owning them appears to be a fairly common paraphilia. And equally common are people expecting quality advice without telling what applications they have in mind. "It's none of your business, just tell me where the good stuff is" - I have heard it many times from people being absolutely dead serious.

Of course somebody could be pretending to be that, but then I tend to assume that deliberate trolls rationally optimize their reward to effort raito. Writing long and elaborate posts to maybe annoy two or three guys trying to help doesn't look like efficient trolling. There exist both lower hanging fruit for opportunistic trolls and higher reward targets for the truly dedicated high effort trolls ;)
 
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Online MK14

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #80 on: March 02, 2023, 11:18:24 am »
I admit your theory has merit.

But, how to tell the difference?
One can never be 100% sure, but owning unusual things for the sake of owning them appears to be a fairly common paraphilia. And equally common are people expecting quality advice without telling what applications they have in mind. "It's none of your business, just tell me where the good stuff is" - I have heard it many times from people being absolutely dead serious.

Of course somebody could be pretending to be that, but then I tend to assume that deliberate trolls rationally optimize their reward to effort raito. Writing long and elaborate posts to maybe annoy two or three guys trying to help doesn't look like efficient trolling. There exist both lower hanging fruit for opportunistic trolls and higher reward targets for the truly dedicated high effort trolls ;)

Thanks, that is a good post.  It has helped me understand this thread, better.

If that is the case.  It would be better if they were clearer about that, then it would be easier to respond effectively.
 

Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #81 on: March 02, 2023, 03:28:01 pm »
I've referred back to this several times now, so I thought I would share it as it's proving useful, particularly the manufacture dates.

https://www.cpu-world.com/info/Intel/Intel_Xeon.html

I has a list of all late model XEONs.

There is one for AMD but this just for the EPYC line:

https://www.cpu-world.com/info/AMD/AMD_EPYC.html
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #82 on: March 02, 2023, 03:46:25 pm »
"UI" and "server" don't really belong in the same sentence in general.
Exactly.  The management is most often done via SSH (at the userspace level); via IPMI (on hardware servers, using a dedicated Ethernet connection); or via SSH and tools in the host OS (when using virtual servers).

There are many really interesting features in the Linux kernel as to server management; many mistakenly believe such features are available only in "big iron" (dedicated hardware and OSes not compatible with desktop systems).  For example, checkpoint and restore in userspace (CRIU, used nowadays for snapshotting and migrating containers and applications) support was first suggested/introduced in 2011, and all functionality required included in the Linux kernel (3.11) by 2013.  (See CRIU at Wikipedia.)  It wasn't the first in Linux, though, as Berkeley Lab Checkpoint/Restart (BLCR) was developed for similar purpose for high-performance computing (migrating computing processes from one node to another) for 2.4 and 2.6 kernels since 2004/2005 (see crd.lbl.gov).

I listed many of the differences between "server" types and selection criteria I've used in practice in #32.
 
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Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #83 on: March 02, 2023, 11:00:29 pm »

I listed many of the differences between "server" types and selection criteria I've used in practice in #32.

A bit of #32

Quote
(I do suspect mapleLC won't even read this post fully, because it's too long, and doesn't answer their question.  I guess this, too, will be classified as "unhelpful bullshit".)

Your the special guy which seems to believe he can attack someone's character/intentions and expect a response by doubling it down and talking past me to the thread -because of assumed attention span problems. 

I read your post and chose not to reply. Your being a barnacle on the thread, you and a few other.  Sadly, you aren't dumb, so my thoughts on your post were more positive than you assumed them to be.

Perhaps reflect on why you're tossing the word salad together with a couple of others, helping ensure the thread has no tangible value to the community, then re-quote yourself because everyone should re-read your saintly offering. These gatekeepers with fantasies about their special capacity to ward others off from participating... it's kinda fashy.



 

Online MK14

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #84 on: March 03, 2023, 12:13:31 am »
Please stay on topic, and discuss server(s).
 
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Offline magic

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #85 on: March 03, 2023, 06:52:50 am »
These gatekeepers with fantasies about their special capacity to ward others off from participating... it's kinda fashy.
Most participants left after your refusal to answer questions they asked. At this point all that's left is you quarreling with fascists.

But go ahead and blame all your woes on a recovering StackOverflow addict ::)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 06:55:22 am by magic »
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #86 on: March 03, 2023, 02:32:51 pm »
These gatekeepers with fantasies about their special capacity to ward others off from participating... it's kinda fashy.
Most participants left after your refusal to answer questions they asked. At this point all that's left is you quarreling with fascists.

But go ahead and blame all your woes on a recovering StackOverflow addict ::)
You meanie!  I wasn't addicted to StackOverflow, I am addicted to solving problems.

As to this thread, the Ignore list is a facility you find in your own Profile > Summary page, Modify Profile > Buddies/Ignore list > Edit Ignore List.  When you put member names there, you no longer see their posts, just a "You are ignoring this user." text in place of their post.  This lets you continue participating in the thread, while comfortably ignoring posts by member(s) you cannot usefully interact with.  You do see quotes by others, though, like the one above.

The only reason I mention when I add someone like mapleLC to my ignore list, is so that anyone reading the thread afterwards knows why I do not respond to that member even if they ask a direct question or post a comment to mine.  There is no intention of advising others to do the same, at all.
(In comparison, when someone detaches themselves from a thread, they usually use language like "I'm out" or similar.)
As far as I have seen, other members use it in the same manner.

Besides, I am known for being direct/confrontrational/grumpy (as well as overly verbose, but still always trying to help) here.  Nobody "follows my lead" on ignoring others.  Just ask magic: we often argue about things and disagree, occasionally agree, but I still love to see his contributions here.  Not because of who or what I think magic is, but because I find their posts informative, and interaction mutually useful.

The only thing I value more than a good fact-based argument that yields possibilities for (myself, and others) learning new stuff, is when experienced members help others.

The thing with true help is that it is not personal.  We do not respond to you to help just you.

When public, either forums or mailing lists, there is always the expectation that others have or will have a similar problem, so it pays best for everybody to examine the problem and solve it in a manner that allows solving all similar related problems.  It is the same thing as in free/open source projects, where being an "user" has zero value, and to get the developers to fix something or add a feature, the "user" has to show their willingness to spend time and effort to help the solve the problem.  That changes one from an "user" to a "contributor", you see.  It is that time and effort that is the currency; here also.
Things like reporting back after getting suggestions, describing what choices they made afterwards, and the results, even in just a couple of sentences, is not just a courtesy, it is a requirement for continued mutually beneficial interaction.

mapleLC, you're not being ignored because there is a clique here that has decided to dislike you.  There are only individual members who dislike the way you approach this forum and express yourself.  It isn't personal, though, at all; if you just change the way you communicate a bit, you'll fit in just fine, and nobody will ignore you.  After all, nobody knows anything about "mapleLC" except what they have posted, and while changing ones own personality is not possible, adjusting ones own way of communicating with others is something that everybody does, unless they become a hermit.

For one, Dave doesn't tolerate such social cliques, you see.  But more importantly, we're here to talk tech: engineering, science, experience; not social stuff.

If you are a technical as opposed to social person, I suggest you go and look at some Beginners or Projects threads, where new members have successfully been helped by some of the experienced members here, like say David Hess.  (They are an excellent example because of their friendly and concise manner of helping, but they will ignore threads where the asker/original poster does not show the abovementioned reciprocality first, and instead will just demand a solution.)  Compare how those threads go, to this thread, and you'll see where you shot yourself in the foot.
Fortunately, nobody cares for long –– I myself purge my ignore list every month or two ––, so if you just adjust your wordage/tone/approach, you'll immediately see a change in responses.

Remember, showing your own attempts first, and showing that you are willing to spend time and effort yourself to solve the problem you are asking for help with, is the most important thing: much more than being "courteous" or "humble" or anything like that.  It is easily experimentally verified, if you don't believe it.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2023, 02:34:51 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #87 on: March 03, 2023, 05:42:36 pm »
Anyway you all forget *THE* most importing item for servers!!! Where do you stack them?!?
Dirty cheap decomissioned servers, but a middle rack cabinet to host computers is dirty expensive!!!

Poor man solution -> buy shelving with lots of shelves

(
I am not a serious person
my computer room looks more like a cellar with hanging hams and salamis
 ;D
)
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #88 on: March 03, 2023, 06:32:16 pm »
I use the cheap IKEA tables!

Buy two of them, turn one the upside down and screw the table top on the legs of the first table. You get a cheap rack in black or white for little money!

https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/lack-side-table-black-20011408/

 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #89 on: March 03, 2023, 06:35:52 pm »
Maybe it depends on where you are but I've seen lots of racks offered for free or very cheap, they're hard to get rid of. Most of them are around 6 feet tall though, the short ones are harder to come by.
 
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Offline NivagSwerdna

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #90 on: March 03, 2023, 07:49:22 pm »
FWIW (and to be honest I haven't read the whole thread)...

4 years ago I bought a Fujitsu Primergy TX1310 M1 to run my home stuff; it runs ESXi (free for one server) and does enough to keep my stuff going.

You should be able to get something comparable for very little.

This was a computational trade up from my previous device which was a HP Microserver N36L? I have a feeling I was forced to move due to ESXi no longer supporting that platform.

Fujitsu second hand is my recommendation.
 
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Offline DiTBho

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2023, 01:15:52 pm »
Maybe it depends on where you are but I've seen lots of racks offered for free or very cheap, they're hard to get rid of. Most of them are around 6 feet tall though, the short ones are harder to come by.

I got asked more than 400 UKP for a brand new Triton Rack 19" 32U  :o :o :o


The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2023, 01:38:07 pm »
I use the cheap IKEA tables!

Buy two of them, turn one the upside down and screw the table top on the legs of the first table. You get a cheap rack in black or white for little money!

https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/lack-side-table-black-20011408/

Costco metal racks with a rubber mat under each row.


Anyway you all forget *THE* most importing item for servers!!! Where do you stack them?!?
Dirty cheap decomissioned servers, but a middle rack cabinet to host computers is dirty expensive!!!

Poor man solution -> buy shelving with lots of shelves

(
I am not a serious person
my computer room looks more like a cellar with hanging hams and salamis
 ;D
)

I have a server rack but I find it more useful for lab equipment than network gear.  It has a switch on it since the lab is on the other side of the house so I needed a switching location there to get at everything else in the house.  By the way, its a great switch for very little money because its totally silent, no fans.  But the other models with more ports have fans, so you want  the 24 port for close proximity. Cisco SG500-28

The P and other derivatives have fans, this is the more bare bones version without POE support.  It has SFP. SFP+, so it was ideal for what I needed.  I didn't expect it to be silent, I was preparing to open it and change them out for Noctuas but no need!

Its a solid switch on its own, the best feature is it's silent.  There are a bunch on ebay for the 100$ range.

« Last Edit: March 04, 2023, 01:40:37 pm by mapleLC »
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #93 on: March 06, 2023, 04:32:02 am »
That's why I gave up trying to help.

You didn't give up, you stopped listening because of imaginary standing on this forum, it leads you to think you can push people around.  I have provided lots of information, if you chose to listen instead of eat up this thread with oblivion posts, you'd see that.  Here, I will repeat the few from my last post. Try reading instead of trying to lead the charge of ganging up on someone.

If you felt I was still vague after below, I invited you and other to find something more interesting to do with your time, but no, your time is better spent here recycling an empty point.  You cant help me. Fine, bye.  But no, you stick around here for what possible reason other than to be an irritant?

Overall: Generic machine with lots of capacity for work, more specifically...
Lots of processing power
Lots of throughput
Modern connection ports, etc
Dual procs
Larger form factor to accommodate change
Intention to work with a SAN
Linux
Emphasis on non-proprietary products
Emphasis on stability and quality
"Snappy" UI experience
Decommissioned price point (hundreds not thousands)
Fairly complete unit, no empty shells

You still haven't really provided much details. If you told us "I want to build a server capable of storing 50 terabytes of data, but don't want to use Windows, in a 10 Gigabit environment, what are my options?" that would have been more helpful.

I'm starting to think you just want to buy a bunch of cheap servers and re-sell them for profit. Would that be accurate?
 
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Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2023, 10:20:31 am »
I'm starting to think you just want to buy a bunch of cheap servers and re-sell them for profit. Would that be accurate?

If I had that intention, I would start a recycling business with a 501 c3 and then a separate company I can sell myself all this donated material to, then sell it to the weary.  It's a labor intensive business that cannot use the typical workforce deployed for recycling as it requires computer skills.

I can think of better places to invest my time than junk retail.  I'm going to take a swipe and tell you that it's NOT accurate, dear lad.
 

Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #95 on: March 06, 2023, 10:31:20 am »
Initially I had figured that searching for a server would mean I would land on something "close enough" that I can take the last few legs.  The more familiar I become with the server world, the more compromises I am discovering which would end up costing me.

Looking at a server spec that I would be happy with, the conclusion is that it wouldn't be durable enough, and this seems to be a requirement that's evolved out of this search.  To put the effort into setting this up properly, I would like to see a stable environment for at least 10 years of service, perhaps more.

I've spent a couple of days studying what it would look like to accumulate parts and put together a server versus what was generally available to buy.  I would need to spend about $2400 for a used server, and I would be able to put together the same spec for about $1500 or so if I do it myself.

I have narrowed down a start point, regardless of direction, and it looks to be the 3647 socket and something within that Xeon family of processors.  The decision is for dual procs, at least 20 cores each, and that gives me something to build around.

These are the processors available, if anyone has thoughts, or believes a different socket is a must have, please say so.

https://www.cpu-world.com/Related_CPUs/Socket%203647_Skylake.html
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 10:38:57 am by mapleLC »
 

Online BradC

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #96 on: March 06, 2023, 12:58:26 pm »
I would need to spend about $2400 for a used server, and I would be able to put together the same spec for about $1500 or so if I do it myself.

To.....do.....what.....? You've still given us no idea what you actually want to do with the thing.

These are the processors available, if anyone has thoughts, or believes a different socket is a must have, please say so.

*so*, but I'm not going to tell you why.
 
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Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #97 on: March 06, 2023, 09:39:43 pm »
I thought this was interesting, he goes thru all the HP models, G1 to G9... way back when it used to be Compaq.


 

Offline Haenk

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #98 on: March 08, 2023, 03:36:04 pm »
Honestly, there are lots of different types of servers. All qualify as "server", but some will meet certain requirements, others don't. And they mostly can't be transfered into another type.
So: How much processing power do you need?
How much memory do you need?
How much disk space do you need? RAID level? Hot plug disks?
How many extension cards do you need?
Budget?

For example, we are running a couple of HP ML350, those are IMHO pretty nice allround servers. We have HDD cages, additional RAID controllers, 10G ethernet and plenty if memory.
Then we have an HP mini server 4bay non RAID, a Mac mini server, a NAS and more stuff.

But without knowing the use case, any recommendation is pointless...
 
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Offline mapleLCTopic starter

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Re: Dirt cheap decomissioned servers?
« Reply #99 on: March 09, 2023, 02:50:19 pm »
Honestly, there are lots of different types of servers. All qualify as "server", but some will meet certain requirements, others don't. And they mostly can't be transfered into another type.
So: How much processing power do you need?
How much memory do you need?
How much disk space do you need? RAID level? Hot plug disks?
How many extension cards do you need?
Budget?

For example, we are running a couple of HP ML350, those are IMHO pretty nice allround servers. We have HDD cages, additional RAID controllers, 10G ethernet and plenty if memory.
Then we have an HP mini server 4bay non RAID, a Mac mini server, a NAS and more stuff.

But without knowing the use case, any recommendation is pointless...

Below are the requirements as I recently stated them after being prodded by a bunch of friendlies.

Since I am several days deeper into the process, I can define my requirements a bit more specifically, but its probably still not enough for the barnaclavia.  A few topics I have actually come full circle on, for example the idea of starting with an empty shell.

Revised:

Quote
Overall: Generic machine with lots of capacity for work, more specifically...
Lots of processing power - deprecated
Lots of throughput - deprecated
Modern connection ports, etc - 2x 10Gb SFP+, 4x 10gb ethernet, host controller QSFP
Dual procs - XEON series, 18+ cores
Larger form factor to accommodate change - 2U, or considering a tower for PCIe expansion
Intention to work with a SAN - QSFP host controller
Linux - probably Ubuntu
Emphasis on non-proprietary products - deprecated
Emphasis on stability and quality - HPE, Fujitsu, Cisco, IBM, Dell are my ranked order so far
"Snappy" UI experience - unfortunately too complex a concept for some, deprecated
Decommissioned price point (hundreds not thousands) - $1500 ceiling
Fairly complete unit, no empty shells - RECONSIDERING THIS AS A START POINT
Video via terminal services, simple local HDMI port
 


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