EEVblog® Electronics Community Forum
Products => Computers => Topic started by: BrianHG on August 08, 2026, 02:06:55 am
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Well, here I am. I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
I will be upgrading my existing C++ code which currently uses OpenGL/FLTK and the system WMaudio to a multi-platform environment. This may mean translation to C#, with either Avalonia or Qt 6/QML for my UI.
My project is around 3X the size of a sophisticated .mp3 player, or an online realtime DJ software.
This is what I was recommended: (I will consider a Mac lateron when compiling for iOS and MacOS)
Ryzen 9 9955HX
64GB ram
2tb SSD
Windows 11 Pro with WSL2 and Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
Now, I prefer a laptop and don't need the peak speeds.
Plus, memory today is a killer.
Will 50% of my above specs do? Such a configuration is already approaching 2k$.
What brands should I look at. The closest thing I can find on amazon would be the business HP lapstops. I do not care for screen quality and battery life as I usually use the system on my desktop with a separate screen, keyboard & mouse.
Would I really save on a mini PC with comparable specs?
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Yes you should be fine with half of that.
If you get a desktop its possible to leave memory slots open to upgrade if you really need to. But 32 GB is adequate for a normal development workstation for small to medium projects.
If you were working on chromium or something then i would say go for the most you can get.
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Get a Mac Mini once the M5 is available for it. 64GB and 2TB. Perfect dev station and AI ready. And a good Asus 5K or 6K display.
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Get a Mac Mini once the M5 is available for it. 64GB and 2TB. Perfect dev station and AI ready. And a good Asus 5K or 6K display.
Great choice for someone who wants to run visual stidio on windows and is concerned about the cost and prefers a laptop! And didnt say anything about AI! And needs it for a job so probably can't wait for an unreleased product!
That said: in the past, used desktop mini PCs were a good bargain. It's worth considering if you are going to be using an external keyboard and mouse and display. I'm not sure if they are any more. One problem is that many of them were specced with absolute minimum memory and storage for corporate thin clients. If you get something you have to upgrade to be usable that may cost more than just buying a laptop.
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As for brands, dell, hp, and lenovo are the big three in laptops. A lot of people have their own preferences but they aren't that different.
The business models have remote management capabilites you probably don't need and usually better build quality. That is nice if you are travelling with it a lot or using the built in keyboard and display. For something that is going to spend its life on a desktop with external peripherals its less of an issue
Business machines also have better warranty and usually come with windows Pro while its an upgrade for the consumer lines. I'm not sure what the difference is now other than domain management.
All versions of windows 11 will require you to have a microsoft account unless you jump through rapidly shrinking hoops or join to a corporate domain. Thats just the reality of windows these days.
For your description I would probably look for a 15-16" laptop whether consumer or bisiness. These are usually better for performance per dollar. The smaller laptops are optimized for weight, portability, and battery life. They aren't cheaper.
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Well, here I am. I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
I'm confused. What do you currently use for software development?
The few times I've absolutely positively needed to use Windows an emulator has worked fine. In the late 2000s I was using Visual Studio on a Core 2 Duo Mac with ... I can't remember now, maybe VMWare Fusion, maybe already Virtualbox.
I definitely used Virtualbox to run corporate rubbish (not least Lookout!) on x86 Linux in the mid to late 2010s.
As for machines, I have a 2023 Lenovo Legion Pro 5i with 24 core i9-13900HX CPU and 32 GB RAM. 64 GB is possible with aftermarket RAM, but my need to do that disappeared once I switched from developing in WSL2 to running Ubuntu natively. By default Windows gives half the RAM to WSL2 and 16 GB wasn't enough. I tweaked it to 22 GB for Linux and 10 GB for Windows which was little enough to also make Windows a bit janky. I mean, slightly more janky than usual.
Lenovo offer (or offered) exactly the same machine with either the 24 core (8+16) i9 or a 16 core (all P core) AMD. I'm normally sympathetic to AMD but went with the Intel as while all-cores active performance was very even the i9 has better turbo on 1-2 cores and my development workloads are often gated on autoconf or linking performance.
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Well, here I am. I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
I'm confused. What do you currently use for software development?
A 2022 release of MSYS2 Mingw64 on a 10 year old Win7 laptop with 16gb ram.
My 3 main MVPs are Windows Specific .exes.
I've proven my technology works with what I have.
My clients now want to see an Android app and a web service.
Making my project a .net and using modern coding agents means VisualStudio.
Visualstudio means I must use Win11 pro somewhere.
Eventually, I will be handing my work off to a dedicated developer and I want to have everything coded with the latest common tools.
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I'm confused. What do you currently use for software development?
A 2022 release of MSYS2 Mingw64 on a 10 year old Win7 laptop with 16gb ram.
Ah. Aka "an (x86) PC". You just need a better one.
I kind of assume my 12 year old i7-4790K (built July 2014) would still run modern Windows pretty well, I did only build it with 2x 8 GB DDR3 RAM (for US$99), the Z97X-UD7 TH can support 4x 8 GB modules.
Hard to believe it's more than 7 years since I built my 32 core Threadripper 2990wx with 128 GB RAM ... still a lot today. I hardly ever turn it on now as the i9-13900 laptop is faster in every way (sometimes by a lot, sometimes not by much) and uses 20% as much electricity.
I would recommend the current gen Legion Pro
https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/configurator/cto/?bundleId=83RUCTO1WWCA1 (https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/configurator/cto/?bundleId=83RUCTO1WWCA1)
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Well, here I am. I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
I will be upgrading my existing C++ code which currently uses OpenGL/FLTK and the system WMaudio to a multi-platform environment. This may mean translation to C#, with either Avalonia or Qt 6/QML for my UI.
My project is around 3X the size of a sophisticated .mp3 player, or an online realtime DJ software.
This is what I was recommended: (I will consider a Mac lateron when compiling for iOS and MacOS)
Ryzen 9 9955HX
64GB ram
2tb SSD
Windows 11 Pro with WSL2 and Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
Now, I prefer a laptop and don't need the peak speeds.
Plus, memory today is a killer.
Will 50% of my above specs do? Such a configuration is already approaching 2k$.
What brands should I look at. The closest thing I can find on amazon would be the business HP lapstops. I do not care for screen quality and battery life as I usually use the system on my desktop with a separate screen, keyboard & mouse.
Would I really save on a mini PC with comparable specs?
Seems like overkill. Recently I bought a Dell Pro Max 16 (Intel Core Ultra 5 235H ) with 32GB of memory which is plenty fast for compiling and running several VMs. This laptop can be bought without Windows. I bought the SSD seperately. One of the things to look out for is to get a processor with a high thermal design limit and the cooling capacity of the laptop itself. The Dell Pro Max has quite a bit of cooling capacity so the processor can actually work hard (fast) without being throttled thermally. Whatever laptop you buy: make sure to get a portable workstation (office) laptop. On paper the value for money looks less but stability and reliability are well worth it.
I can also highly recommend involving Claude code to speed up development.
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Seems like overkill.
It's really impossible to say without knowing exact details of what is to be run. If the person who recommended 64 GB is doing the same or similar development then it might be a good idea to take their advice. But then again they might not know.
Running WSL in Windows does effectively double the RAM requirement if both Windows and Linux are going to be running heavy things.
I went to 32 GB as my standard development setup in 2015. That's still OK for what I'm doing now (and 16 certainly isn't), but 32 wasn't enough when I was doing development in WSL. It was enough once I deleted Windows and installed Ubuntu natively on the Legion.
There are definitely many kinds of development now for which 64 GB is not overkill.
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I can also highly recommend involving Claude code to speed up development.
I have a paid account for ChatGPT5.6. When I started with 5.4, it did mess thing up, but 5.5 & 5.6 really delivered clean compile-able, functional code.
Upgrading to VisualStudio which only works in Win11 means I can use ChatGPT's integrated Codex and/or Claude. I used a back-door technique to get ChatGPT working in Win7 and I am past the point where using this method makes any sense.
Claude would have cost me a fortune by comparison as I used a few billion tokens fooling around...
Though, still less than a seasoned SW engineer's salary.
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Seems like overkill.
It's really impossible to say without knowing exact details of what is to be run. If the person who recommended 64 GB is doing the same or similar development then it might be a good idea to take their advice. But then again they might not know.
Running WSL in Windows does effectively double the RAM requirement if both Windows and Linux are going to be running heavy things.
There are definitely many kinds of development now for which 64 GB is not overkill.
Maybe but you can always upgrade. With 32GB I can comfortably run a VM with 12GB and have penty left for compiling a bunch of code.
I can also highly recommend involving Claude code to speed up development.
I have a paid account for ChatGPT5.6. When I started with 5.4, it did mess thing up, but 5.5 & 5.6 really delivered clean compile-able, functional code.
Upgrading to VisualStudio which only works in Win11 means I can use ChatGPT's integrated Codex and/or Claude. I used a back-door technique to get ChatGPT working in Win7 and I am past the point where using this method makes any sense.
Claude would have cost me a fortune by comparison as I used a few billion tokens fooling around...
Claude uses way less tokens compared to ChatGPT. My guess is that if you try Claude, you'll forget about ChatGPT quickly. Claude can deal with pretty large codebases and not lose oversight. I'm on the US $100 / month plan and I never burned through the daily token allowance.
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Claude uses way less tokens compared to ChatGPT. My guess is that if you try Claude, you'll forget about ChatGPT quickly. Claude can deal with pretty large codebases and not lose oversight. I'm on the US $100 / month plan and I never burned through the daily token allowance.
I pay 25$ a month, no limits. However, I know I only got a few more months before ChatGPT raises the rate...
I was also told Claude would not like my prompts, like my starting SW spec as it is a 45 page spec document. Though if Claude gave me a month free all open, I would give it a try.
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For Intel based, this one is the best bang for the buck:
Intel Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-Touchscreen-Graphics/dp/B0FGXLLYRV?crid=1SH68JKS9YJZC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.pMOwJdxq6E5GhAU_wirbJxq7Jw2Ka5H7RhWRBdANC705thZ5KkXMZIefi_BuCtsvixngvtxmQz2OVWZxaZq18rinj199sDkZuCENv2lnkcSN09lHe2Vt_Z45k1xXa6LQMjXuyaoUYLCAZqgwu97VVIkbZEdmmWi18LXOqskWAWN3m7dLOs9NPXm4obvHAMNPolXT8hx9s2kmQ4RkbBVtaGtNmVlcWwQhWvilXZUrUFM8MRSRRmOEwPSJ1Q18t5j6qOZNC792DtG0Snd_faJxYvqxW9d6HJHNViIMBcNwFxc.4T6EXQlHd94R6JXaUGSl-wcSXgw3B5pqj8SBjbIeySE&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B16%22%2BWUXGA(1920%2Bx%2B1200%2BPixels)%2BTouchscreen%2C%2BIntel%2BUltra%2B9%2B285H&qid=1785896415&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B16%2Bwuxga%2B1920%2Bx%2B1200%2Bpixels%2Btouchscreen%2C%2Bintel%2Bultra%2B9%2B285h%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-7&th=1)
For AMD based, this is the best bang for the buck:
AMD Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-1920x1200-Backlit/dp/B0F8QG5SFK?crid=1EHIR81XOLNUJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WyjCCH8Q9rdo3T_c-kBRE_BvxRlxT8jxrzfM_X2VV6dzZQTmJBC4WbrEigY_M5WEAkW8QGcTC4dBX1yXzNxzhRCwnrJ_2ToqbbS75jzAfpyPGXZKDfkT7owv-76jnWla487mInB43UcOVdeRlgTKrpS5RbnCJHLv1V5NT0Bl80-DAlm8ZffucQcnrezY1O7fxZ89ThH_RPA9saOXUFkoCU9AWAi8ujnQhvyFKd-G_Mq8pC9loCRc-AbNnR3cN6TrW1SFtet-Tx8xaElHwYG_S1R9uEYBVguO25hbeK48Yks.el2hUQmRJiWJ4DdiLLbBNVnFYbrK7tvICjFmSt2dKTY&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2B5%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%22%2B1920x1200%2BTouch%2C%2BAMD-8%2BCore%2BRyzen%2BAI%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32GB&qid=1785897102&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2B5%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%2B1920x1200%2Btouch%2C%2Bamd-8%2Bcore%2Bryzen%2Bai%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32gb%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-8&th=1)
Cheaper than a laptop, but 2x faster: (recommended processor count and memory is upgradable to 64gb)
Mini PC faster (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0G7H65Q5S?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
Cheaper than Laptop, around the same speed:
Mini PC slower (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0GSZR1YQZ?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
What should I choose?
My next step after making my multi-platform MVD will be investment, so at that stage I can get a system with all the bells and whistles, but right now, I am bootstrapping the project so I want to save money but not get stuck with a system which compiles too slow.
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Personally right now I'd consider trying to prefer machines w/ DDR4 instead of 5, as you'll save a bit on memory inflation, and the perf differences for dev work aren't likely to be much impact. I'd rather spend the same on more ram than faster.
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Claude uses way less tokens compared to ChatGPT. My guess is that if you try Claude, you'll forget about ChatGPT quickly. Claude can deal with pretty large codebases and not lose oversight. I'm on the US $100 / month plan and I never burned through the daily token allowance.
I pay 25$ a month, no limits. However, I know I only got a few more months before ChatGPT raises the rate...
I was also told Claude would not like my prompts, like my starting SW spec as it is a 45 page spec document. Though if Claude gave me a month free all open, I would give it a try.
I have fed Claude protocol specs spanning 500 pages to build a protocol implementation for me. Worked like a charm. Same with datasheets / hardware manuals spanning hundreds of pages. Just start with Claude on the $20 a month plan and see how it goes. You can always upgrade.
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For Intel based, this one is the best bang for the buck:
Intel Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-Touchscreen-Graphics/dp/B0FGXLLYRV?crid=1SH68JKS9YJZC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.pMOwJdxq6E5GhAU_wirbJxq7Jw2Ka5H7RhWRBdANC705thZ5KkXMZIefi_BuCtsvixngvtxmQz2OVWZxaZq18rinj199sDkZuCENv2lnkcSN09lHe2Vt_Z45k1xXa6LQMjXuyaoUYLCAZqgwu97VVIkbZEdmmWi18LXOqskWAWN3m7dLOs9NPXm4obvHAMNPolXT8hx9s2kmQ4RkbBVtaGtNmVlcWwQhWvilXZUrUFM8MRSRRmOEwPSJ1Q18t5j6qOZNC792DtG0Snd_faJxYvqxW9d6HJHNViIMBcNwFxc.4T6EXQlHd94R6JXaUGSl-wcSXgw3B5pqj8SBjbIeySE&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B16%22%2BWUXGA(1920%2Bx%2B1200%2BPixels)%2BTouchscreen%2C%2BIntel%2BUltra%2B9%2B285H&qid=1785896415&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B16%2Bwuxga%2B1920%2Bx%2B1200%2Bpixels%2Btouchscreen%2C%2Bintel%2Bultra%2B9%2B285h%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-7&th=1)
For AMD based, this is the best bang for the buck:
AMD Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-1920x1200-Backlit/dp/B0F8QG5SFK?crid=1EHIR81XOLNUJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WyjCCH8Q9rdo3T_c-kBRE_BvxRlxT8jxrzfM_X2VV6dzZQTmJBC4WbrEigY_M5WEAkW8QGcTC4dBX1yXzNxzhRCwnrJ_2ToqbbS75jzAfpyPGXZKDfkT7owv-76jnWla487mInB43UcOVdeRlgTKrpS5RbnCJHLv1V5NT0Bl80-DAlm8ZffucQcnrezY1O7fxZ89ThH_RPA9saOXUFkoCU9AWAi8ujnQhvyFKd-G_Mq8pC9loCRc-AbNnR3cN6TrW1SFtet-Tx8xaElHwYG_S1R9uEYBVguO25hbeK48Yks.el2hUQmRJiWJ4DdiLLbBNVnFYbrK7tvICjFmSt2dKTY&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2B5%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%22%2B1920x1200%2BTouch%2C%2BAMD-8%2BCore%2BRyzen%2BAI%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32GB&qid=1785897102&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2B5%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%2B1920x1200%2Btouch%2C%2Bamd-8%2Bcore%2Bryzen%2Bai%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32gb%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-8&th=1)
Cheaper than a laptop, but 2x faster: (recommended processor count and memory is upgradable to 64gb)
Mini PC faster (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0G7H65Q5S?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
Cheaper than Laptop, around the same speed:
Mini PC slower (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0GSZR1YQZ?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
What should I choose?
My next step after making my multi-platform MVD will be investment, so at that stage I can get a system with all the bells and whistles, but right now, I am bootstrapping the project so I want to save money but not get stuck with a system which compiles too slow.
Why would you want a mini-PC? If you don't need something portable and speed is important, then buying a benchtop PC gets most bang for your buck. The limitation is the amount of power you can dissipate in the CPU. A bigger casing allows for a bigger cooling solution, more heat dissipation and thus more processing power.
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And given the prices for RAM and storage, I would favor an upgradable solution instead of a non-upgradable one (such as most laptops these days, with few exceptions - maybe look at Thinkpads).
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If you can live with a desktop, check out https://www.ibuypower.com (https://www.ibuypower.com)
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If you can live with a desktop, check out https://www.ibuypower.com (https://www.ibuypower.com)
Overpriced, only have windows home edition.
Separate video cards adds a cost I do not require.
8gb base versions are a joke. Units with 32gb are over 5k$.
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SiliconWizard: "And given the prices for RAM and storage, I would favor an upgradable solution"
Older models are often better for this, which means in many cases there's a good argument for getting a secondhand or refurbished machine, then swap out all the wearable (as in wears down with time) items. So definitely put in fresh storage, whereas RAM can last forever with good luck (memory test utilities, like found on the live USB you'd make for many of the Linux distros, will let you check the RAM hasn't had any bad luck or accidents when the machine first reaches you).
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For Intel based, this one is the best bang for the buck:
Intel Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-Touchscreen-Graphics/dp/B0FGXLLYRV?crid=1SH68JKS9YJZC&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.pMOwJdxq6E5GhAU_wirbJxq7Jw2Ka5H7RhWRBdANC705thZ5KkXMZIefi_BuCtsvixngvtxmQz2OVWZxaZq18rinj199sDkZuCENv2lnkcSN09lHe2Vt_Z45k1xXa6LQMjXuyaoUYLCAZqgwu97VVIkbZEdmmWi18LXOqskWAWN3m7dLOs9NPXm4obvHAMNPolXT8hx9s2kmQ4RkbBVtaGtNmVlcWwQhWvilXZUrUFM8MRSRRmOEwPSJ1Q18t5j6qOZNC792DtG0Snd_faJxYvqxW9d6HJHNViIMBcNwFxc.4T6EXQlHd94R6JXaUGSl-wcSXgw3B5pqj8SBjbIeySE&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B16%22%2BWUXGA(1920%2Bx%2B1200%2BPixels)%2BTouchscreen%2C%2BIntel%2BUltra%2B9%2B285H&qid=1785896415&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B16%2Bwuxga%2B1920%2Bx%2B1200%2Bpixels%2Btouchscreen%2C%2Bintel%2Bultra%2B9%2B285h%2Caps%2C130&sr=8-7&th=1)
For AMD based, this is the best bang for the buck:
AMD Laptop (https://www.amazon.ca/HP-OmniBook-Business-1920x1200-Backlit/dp/B0F8QG5SFK?crid=1EHIR81XOLNUJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.WyjCCH8Q9rdo3T_c-kBRE_BvxRlxT8jxrzfM_X2VV6dzZQTmJBC4WbrEigY_M5WEAkW8QGcTC4dBX1yXzNxzhRCwnrJ_2ToqbbS75jzAfpyPGXZKDfkT7owv-76jnWla487mInB43UcOVdeRlgTKrpS5RbnCJHLv1V5NT0Bl80-DAlm8ZffucQcnrezY1O7fxZ89ThH_RPA9saOXUFkoCU9AWAi8ujnQhvyFKd-G_Mq8pC9loCRc-AbNnR3cN6TrW1SFtet-Tx8xaElHwYG_S1R9uEYBVguO25hbeK48Yks.el2hUQmRJiWJ4DdiLLbBNVnFYbrK7tvICjFmSt2dKTY&dib_tag=se&keywords=HP%2BOmniBook%2B5%2BBusiness%2BLaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%22%2B1920x1200%2BTouch%2C%2BAMD-8%2BCore%2BRyzen%2BAI%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32GB&qid=1785897102&sprefix=hp%2Bomnibook%2B5%2Bbusiness%2Blaptop%2C%2B2025%2C%2B16%2B1920x1200%2Btouch%2C%2Bamd-8%2Bcore%2Bryzen%2Bai%2B7%2B350%2C%2B32gb%2Caps%2C131&sr=8-8&th=1)
Cheaper than a laptop, but 2x faster: (recommended processor count and memory is upgradable to 64gb)
Mini PC faster (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0G7H65Q5S?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
Cheaper than Laptop, around the same speed:
Mini PC slower (https://www.amazon.ca/MINISFORUM-Ryzen-9955HX-5-4GHz-PCIe%C3%9716/dp/B0GSZR1YQZ?crid=3I262LAPYYJDA&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yWExoOM8xYlza42f0ou3lcEuf6vTgchQ62nXyvP76hY.7v92YKUxgKRc9G1PutrPmnnffbqvQ7H7hUXKzKbhxuY&dib_tag=se&keywords=small%2Bform%2BPC&qid=1785944502&refinements=p_n_g-1004198002091%3A21354486011%2Cp_n_g-1003133500111%3A23724071011%2Cp_n_g-1003513532111%3A35910519011&rnid=35910490011&sprefix=small%2Bform%2Bpc%2Caps%2C126&sr=8-2&th=1)
What should I choose?
My next step after making my multi-platform MVD will be investment, so at that stage I can get a system with all the bells and whistles, but right now, I am bootstrapping the project so I want to save money but not get stuck with a system which compiles too slow.
Modern HP is on my "do not buy" list. Certainly if you plan to use it for more than a year or two.
You've said the main job is compiling, presumably software large enough that we're not talking 0.1 seconds vs 1 second for a new vs old laptop, but 5 minutes vs an hour or something like that.
For compiling with a well set-up build system, the more cores the better. The AMD HP laptop you point to has only 8 cores.
Both HP laptops you point to look very thin. They are going to have crap cooling and the CPU is going to throttle like hell within 15-30 seconds under serious load.
The Lenovo models I've pointed you to have a lot of cores (my i9-13900HX has 24 cores) and good cooling (for a laptop) and even long all-core compile tasks only throttle back from initially around 4 GHz on all cores to maybe 3.2 GHz. That's a Legion Pro 5. The 7 and 9 series apparently have even better cooling, with e.g. the case being metal instead of plastic, bigger internal heatsinks etc.
A mini-PC will have better cooling than a "thin and light" laptop. A large desktop PC even better cooling.
In 2019 I had my personally-owned i7-8650U NUC mini-PC with 32 GB RAM, which had travelled the world with me for a couple of years, using whatever monitors I could find in the offices I visited. Then my employer gave me a company ThinkPad X1 Carbon "thin and light" which is "widely considered the ultimate road warrior laptop" with the same i7-8650U CPU.
The laptop took literally twice as long to compile the GNU toolchain (binutils, gcc, libc) as the NUC, it throttled so much. We're talking an hour vs 30 minutes kind of twice as long. Since I'd stopped travelling that's when I built the 32 core Threadripper tower (20+ kg) which did the same task in 5 minutes. And now I have the Lenovo Legion Pro 24 core i9 "gaming" laptop which is faster than the Threadripper even on long intensive tasks but I can travel with it.
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If you must use Windows, try switching your current machine to a stripped down Windows 11? That would remove many of the problems with Windows, most crucially saving a lot of RAM use by removing unnecessary features.
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I'm using Intel 7600K with 16GB ram for MCU and Windows app dev.
I don't have any ram shortages with 16GB, but my apps are not hugely complex.
So I would imagine 32GB is plenty.
Honestly i think having lots of browser tabs open will use more RAM than the dev does.
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I bought my first personal laptop two years ago for traveling, a Lenovo Yoga 6 (AMD 7530, 8 GB) 13.3" for $450.
I love it. Most here would probably find it inadequate.
I do wish that I had gotten the 16 GB. I did replace the 256 GB SSD with 1 TB.
I thought that it would be practically disposable, but it's my main PC now with docking and 29".
But spend $1500+? No, thanks.
By nature I keep the simultaneous programs down, browser tabs counted on one hand and I don't build kernels (I do modify them though).
99% of the time is me staring at a screen.
My biggest make takes one minute.
Ok, doing a Vivado FPGA compile you can hear the gears grind and smoke comes out the side. :P
Edit: I don't do any gaming, rarely watch any video.
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If you're the type of developer that has a very rapid 'code / compile / test' cycle then you might want to investigate if your build environment/compiler will benefit from more cores or faster cores and where exactly the tradeoff is.
Choosing a CPU that will build faster might be worthwhile paying for and that comes down to how efficient your compiler is at multithreading. Having unused cores is kind of pointless.
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I bought my first personal laptop two years ago for traveling, a Lenovo Yoga 6 (AMD 7530, 8 GB) 13.3" for $450.
I love it. Most here would probably find it inadequate.
Needs vary hugely, by orders of magnitude. It's impossible to make any recommendation without fully understanding the exact task to be performed.
My travel machine is a Lenovo E14 Gen 2 AMD with 6 core 4500U with 8 GB RAM. Your 7530u is about 40% faster. The 4500U is perfectly fine for general web browsing or working on relatively small and simple development projects — it's likely fine with anything that is your own from-scratch project.
But spend $1500+? No, thanks.
For other needs $1500 is absolutely trivial. My i9-13900 laptop cost around $1500 on discount after the next model was already out. I thought it was an absolute bargain. The alternative was an M3 Max 14 core 36 GB RAM for $3500, or 16 core 48 GB for $4000.
I remember paying $3300 for a 266 MHz single core G3 with 64 MB RAM, and thought that was good. My 32 core ThreadRipper cost $4600 to build. I got my money's worth from that too as my main computer from early 2019 to early 2024.
It's shocking to me how reluctant programmers (or their employers) are to spend money for equipment for people who they are paying $100k+/year. $1500 too much? It's ridiculous on the face of it, if spending more improves productivity by even a couple of percent.
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If you're the type of developer that has a very rapid 'code / compile / test' cycle then you might want to investigate if your build environment/compiler will benefit from more cores or faster cores and where exactly the tradeoff is.
Choosing a CPU that will build faster might be worthwhile paying for and that comes down to how efficient your compiler is at multithreading. Having unused cores is kind of pointless.
You need to know your own needs.
Linux kernel builds and LLVM builds scale linearly out to at least 64 or 96 CPU cores (maybe more, that's the most I've tested with). GCC and other GNU software with sequential recursive make steps, each with an autoconf, not so much ... maximum overall speedup on a GCC build is about 9x even with a lot more cores than that (but more like 5x if you only have 8 cores).
Building C# in Visual Studio? I really have no idea how many cores it can use profitably. I'd hope all of them.
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What should I choose?
Something with a lot of cores.
I have a PC built 10 years ago, twin E5-2687W Xeon cpus with 24 cores each, so 48 logical processors. And 256Gb DDR4 memory (bought when memory was a lot cheaper). Since Visual Studio can make use of those cores while compiling a large-ish project with a few thousand files split into 20 dll's, it's still reasonably fast today, although my Mac M3 laptop feels faster.
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Yep, if the compiler can peg all the core you throw at it to 100%, then that will be a better option.
It may actually be better to get much older generation chip with double the cores vs a modern chip for the same price but less cores. That may make thing faster but also cheaper if it moves you from DDR5 to DDR4. But you might have to weigh that against getting a modern chip with better performance running VMs.
Not all compilers can peg all cores, hence why it's important to know what your compiler will do with the CPU you give it.
Sometimes you are locked in to using a proprietary compiler which often sucks.
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Not all compilers can peg all cores, hence why it's important to know what your compiler will do with the CPU you give it.
Sometimes you are locked in to using a proprietary compiler which often sucks.
Every compiler I've ever seen uses ONE core.
It's the build system, specifically a program such as gmake, cmake, ninja (even when those are kicked off from a fancy GUI IDE), that decides how many copies of the compiler to run at the same time. And this in turn depends on how your build scripts are written and how good your dependencies are.
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If you're the type of developer that has a very rapid 'code / compile / test' cycle then you might want to investigate if your build environment/compiler will benefit from more cores or faster cores and where exactly the tradeoff is.
Choosing a CPU that will build faster might be worthwhile paying for and that comes down to how efficient your compiler is at multithreading. Having unused cores is kind of pointless.
You need to know your own needs.
Linux kernel builds and LLVM builds scale linearly out to at least 64 or 96 CPU cores (maybe more, that's the most I've tested with). GCC and other GNU software with sequential recursive make steps, each with an autoconf, not so much ... maximum overall speedup on a GCC build is about 9x even with a lot more cores than that (but more like 5x if you only have 8 cores).
Building C# in Visual Studio? I really have no idea how many cores it can use profitably. I'd hope all of them.
It will probably be slow. Compiling microcontroller firmware using GCC on Windows takes like 5 to 6 times longer compared to Linux with the same GCC on the same PC with the exact same make file. It is all about the speed of task switching.
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If you can live with a desktop, check out https://www.ibuypower.com (https://www.ibuypower.com)
Overpriced, only have windows home edition.
Separate video cards adds a cost I do not require.
8gb base versions are a joke. Units with 32gb are over 5k$.
Huh? Their pre build machines are cheaper than if you bought all the parts separately. And they certainly have windows pro.
My friends and I used to always build machines from parts and we all get iBuyPower stuff now because it's significantly cheaper and has warranty and all that.
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Not all compilers can peg all cores, hence why it's important to know what your compiler will do with the CPU you give it.
Sometimes you are locked in to using a proprietary compiler which often sucks.
Every compiler I've ever seen uses ONE core.
It's the build system, specifically a program such as gmake, cmake, ninja (even when those are kicked off from a fancy GUI IDE), that decides how many copies of the compiler to run at the same time. And this in turn depends on how your build scripts are written and how good your dependencies are.
Yep, i was using the word loosely/incorrectly, my bad.
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Huh? Their pre build machines are cheaper than if you bought all the parts separately. And they certainly have windows pro.
My friends and I used to always build machines from parts and we all get iBuyPower stuff now because it's significantly cheaper and has warranty and all that.
Yeah, I used to physically build machines myself until I found places that would assemble and test parts of your choosing for you for around US$60/NZ$100.
Quite apart from not using an hour or two of my time, I build about one machine every five years while they're probably doing five a day. So they're better at it. And if some part turns out to be DOA then they have others already on hand that they can swap out to find out which part the problem is with, at zero hassle to me. I don't HAVE spare parts of the current generation, and it's a PITA and time (and latency!) sink to RMA things.
My Threadripper was built by adamant.com when I lived in the US. My i7-6700K was assembled by a vendor in Moscow. My i7-4790K was assembled by PBTech here in NZ.
In the 2000s and 2010s ascent.co.nz would actually assemble your selected parts FOR FREE, on the basis that this cost them less than tech support for people who did their own assembly. They stopped offering this around 2021, and now instead offer a 2% discount if you buy all parts for a complete computer using their online configuration tool. This at least ensures that customers order compatible parts.
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Well, here I am. I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
VS can be a highly productive development environment if you do not fight it mentally.
Visual Studio Code is a good alternative too.
If you want you can use the VS compilers from the MSYS2 command line.
Set the INCLUDE, LIB and PATH environment variables from a bash shell and call "cl -O1 -c file.cpp"
This is what I was recommended: (I will consider a Mac lateron when compiling for iOS and MacOS)
Ryzen 9 9955HX
64GB ram
2tb SSD
Windows 11 Pro with WSL2 and Ubuntu 24.04 LTS
This is overkill in my opinion. I have a 32 GB Laptop and do not use more than 14 GB with Win11 and normal development work.
For developement work it is important to have at least 6 fast cores for parallel compilation.
Other factors are not very important. I prefer Intel CPUs as the the single core performance and the DDRAM bandwidth is better
(see https://www.igorslab.de/en/jedec-ddr5-9000-intel-arrow-lake-refresh-ryzen-9000-x3d-ram-scaling/5/ (https://www.igorslab.de/en/jedec-ddr5-9000-intel-arrow-lake-refresh-ryzen-9000-x3d-ram-scaling/5/)).
More cores do not help more because Laptops have a limited thermal budget.
After the PL2 limit (28 seconds on my Dell) the CPU clock is reduced and the more cores the faster the thermal throttling.
I have a Dell with an i7 and with an i9. The i7 is 5% slower but it is much quieter and stays cooler.
Select a laptop with at least 45 Watt and with two 80 mm fans in an aluminium housing.
I have very good experience with the Dell Precision 15" series (5530 up to 5570).
The successor is the Dell Pro Plus 16 which should be ok too, but it does not have the centered touchpad.
If you use fast DirectX or 3D CAD you may need a good Nvidia graphic card too.
Would I really save on a mini PC with comparable specs?
No. The mini PC has the same thermal problems.
If you do not need the mobility of a Laptop buy a normal PC.
They have better performance especially if you are compiling larger projects.
No thermal throttling and they do not use space on your deskop and they are cheaper.
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I will unfortunately need to work with VisualStudio.
Making my project a .net and using modern coding agents means VisualStudio.
Visualstudio means I must use Win11 pro somewhere.
If you allow yourself, you might - shock!, horror! - actually like it. Visual Studio is an immensely capable application, fine-tuned and polished over three decades. As for W11, if you decide in advance that you'll hate it, then of course you will. Approached with an open mind, you'll find it to be perfectly tolerable. After all, a billion users get their work done on it.
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I just put together a computer mainly for SW Dev. It is a dual socket Intel LGA2011-3 with DDR3, which is highly unusual since that socket is normally DDR4. I went for the unusual DDR3 config because I had a drawer full of it from the "before times", and can't justify the cost of new DDR4 for what is frankly a toy. .
Only a subset of the E5-26xx V3/V4 CPUs work with DDR3. Fortunately, the cream of the crop is one of them, E5-2696v4. That is an OEM part (not found in Intel Ark) which is identical to the flagship E5-2699v4. It is a 22 core 44 thread CPU with 55 MB cache, 3.7 GHz max, and 2.7 GHz all cores active. So the dual socket setup has 44 cores / 88 threads, and 8 channel memory giving about 110 GB/s bandwidth. Not stellar but not too shabby. Of course these XEON CPUs cost many thousands each originally but now maybe $60 each. Chinese random brand motherboard around $100
I can compile the Linux kernel (with Debian x64 config) in about 90 seconds. Single threaded performance is frankly rather meh, but with 88 threads, it adds up to something. The 7zip benchmark score is over 1.5x as high as my much newer, much more costly, Core Ultra 7. I was also playing with Qwen 3.6 35b which runs at about 24 Token/s output rate entirely on CPU using ik-llama. Again, not stellar but given the cost of the hardware, really respectable. Due to the low-ish single core performance and high thread count, this system needs workloads that can make use of many threads. Mine do, so I'm happy.
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E5-2696v4
150W TDP. Owww. And you're running two of them. 300W.
Qwen 3.6 35b which runs at about 24 Token/s
That's probably near maximum power too. So likely 12W/tok/s.
My little RISC-V SBC only gets 4.5-5 tok/s on that model (Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-UD-Q4_K_XL.gguf), but it's also only using 14W doing it, also entirely on CPU (the eight 2.0 GHz dual-issue in-order A100 cores).
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E5-2696v4
150W TDP. Owww. And you're running two of them. 300W.
Qwen 3.6 35b which runs at about 24 Token/s
That's probably near maximum power too. So likely 12W/tok/s.
My little RISC-V SBC only gets 4.5-5 tok/s on that model (Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-UD-Q4_K_XL.gguf), but it's also only using 14W doing it, also entirely on CPU (the eight 2.0 GHz dual-issue in-order A100 cores).
Yes 300 W TDP, which doesn't necessarily mean they use that much power in reality. But in this case they do, especially when using SIMD-type instructions.
Token rate is bound by memory bandwidth. Your token rate is exactly as expected for a single channel of decent DDR4. I found that when running AI, I can limit the engine to far fewer CPU cores and/or turn down CPU clock speed, both of which significantly reduce power consumption without reducing token rate. So then about 6 W/Tok/s, "merely" double your power consumption. While 4.5-5 Tok/s is impressive at 14 W, that token rate feels unbearably slow in an interactive session. When you get over roughly 20 Tok/s, it meets or exceeds most people's reading speed, so it feels much more natural to use. My main use for this computer is definitely not AI. It was just a fun experiment to see what very cheap old hardware could do with a decidedly modern workload which normally requires hideously expensive modern hardware. It is roughly on par with a mid range GPU+CPU, for both power and token rate.
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I can limit the engine to far fewer CPU cores and/or turn down CPU clock speed, both of which significantly reduce power consumption without reducing token rate.
Oh yes I forgot about that. Adding "-t 4" (instead of the default 8) increased it from 4.6 to 5.3 tok/s on the same query.
I must be a slow reader, but I find 6-7 tok/s from a slightly smaller model quite comfortable on general queries such as "Tell me about Dolly Parton". Of course it's slow for slinging large amounts of code around.
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Look into MSI or other gaming laptops, in used condition, like 1-2 years old. Although you get them used, their specs will fall within what you are looking for, will still run latest windows and will handle all of the requirements pretty well. Unless you are dead set on getting the brand new equipment.
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So things have become so crazy that now even professionals are resorting to buying second-hand gear? Sad days.
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So things have become so crazy that now even professionals are resorting to buying second-hand gear? Sad days.
Performance increase had slowed down a lot. The laptop I bought 12 years ago became too slow last year so I finally bought a new one. And my decade old daily driver PC might be up next. But it is still quick enough for compiling stuff. The age is a stronger reason (reliability) to replace than the performance. But right now is not the right time to buy a PC. RAM prices are huge. The laptop I bought is from Dell and typically I buy Dell computers with the smallest memory and upgrade myself. But this time round buying the laptop with the amount of memory I need was cheaper than buying memory seperately.
Back in the old days buying a new CPU + motherboard every year gained you like 2 to 3 times the speed.
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Oh, certainly it's less worth the upgrade these days, so the matter is more like if you really need to buy/build a new computer because you need one extra or your old gear has failed. This is when you start crying...
This it the path I took on my main workstation, a couple years ago when I decided to max it out (buy RAM to the max supported, buy new SSDs, and change the CPU to the highest supported on the motherboard, which had become cheaper) rather than buy a brand new machine that would have cost a lot more for modest performance increase compared to what I got.
But that was before the great inflation.
These days, even doing that may become out of budget for many.
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So things have become so crazy that now even professionals are resorting to buying second-hand gear? Sad days.
Oh gosh, I've always done that! In both computers and cars and iPhones there are some people who simply MUST always have the latest model, even when it's only 2% better than last year's model. I take advantage of them.
I bought my "Late 2011" quad core i7 17" MacBook Pro used in early 2014 and then travelled the world with it almost continuously until 2020. I did augment it with a pocketable NUC with i8-8650U in 2018 but the 2011 remained my laptop. Similarly I bought a used PowerMac 8500 120 MHz I think a year old (so 1996), and then used it for a long time, into the 2000s, only changing the CPU from 604 to 604e to G3 to G4 until I bought a year old dual core 2.0 GHz G5 PowerMac in 2004.
The rule is to buy the first model of a generational leap, with a large performance increase, when the 2nd gen with a 5% improvement comes out.
So for example buying a used M1 when the very little improved M2 came out would make sense. Though in that case I couldn't contain myself and got a 16GB M1 Mac Mini the instant they came out in late 2020. (and it's still my main computer for interactive use, web browsing etc, almost six years later with zero plans to change it)
Another thing I do is buy last year's model, brand new and unused, but at a discount. I got my first dedicated Linux machine that way ... a Pentium Pro 200 at a huge discount when the Pentium II was already out. Apparently the Pentium II ran legacy 16 bit code much better, but I was running only 32 bit code... And my current workhorse laptop, an i9-13900 model from 2023, I bought at a large discount in early 2024 when the i9-14900 machines (which were only a 200 MHz speed bump on a 5.4 MHz single core speed ... 4%) were already available. Oh, and my 2019 model Honda CRF250L Rally motorcycle, bought at a large discount (NZ$7250 vs originally $12000) when the 2020 model was already next to it in the shop.
Mildly used or new old stock ... both good buying when any changes since that model are purely incremental.
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E5-2696v4
150W TDP. Owww. And you're running two of them. 300W.
Qwen 3.6 35b which runs at about 24 Token/s
That's probably near maximum power too. So likely 12W/tok/s.
My little RISC-V SBC only gets 4.5-5 tok/s on that model (Qwen3.6-35B-A3B-UD-Q4_K_XL.gguf), but it's also only using 14W doing it, also entirely on CPU (the eight 2.0 GHz dual-issue in-order A100 cores).
Yes 300 W TDP, which doesn't necessarily mean they use that much power in reality. But in this case they do, especially when using SIMD-type instructions.
Token rate is bound by memory bandwidth. Your token rate is exactly as expected for a single channel of decent DDR4. I found that when running AI, I can limit the engine to far fewer CPU cores and/or turn down CPU clock speed, both of which significantly reduce power consumption without reducing token rate. So then about 6 W/Tok/s, "merely" double your power consumption. While 4.5-5 Tok/s is impressive at 14 W, that token rate feels unbearably slow in an interactive session. When you get over roughly 20 Tok/s, it meets or exceeds most people's reading speed, so it feels much more natural to use. My main use for this computer is definitely not AI. It was just a fun experiment to see what very cheap old hardware could do with a decidedly modern workload which normally requires hideously expensive modern hardware. It is roughly on par with a mid range GPU+CPU, for both power and token rate.
no opinion on the bandwagon AI flavour-of-the-day, but i did appreciate the discussion around dual socket motherboards.
after enough computations, i successfully scorched my mac pro 5.1's cpu board/northbridge by performing my computation that relies on large shared memory.
it got so bad that what used to be quick took forever because the data from each "half" had to sync before returning the result. that's when i looked at the board and saw heat patterns around specific pins.
i got lucky and scored an 18 core imacpro for 600 loserbux that had a crack in the screen (not noticeable during usage though). added 256GB to it and it has tided me over for the past two years. can't complain.
but in general i approve of your approach. i would have done something similar if i needed the cores. right now i'm waiting for the new intel stuff and i'll likely be moving to windows from APPUL.
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The days of overkill configuration to run a huge IDE thinking that magically turns into good code are fortunately over.
You can develop your mp3 player with 16GB of RAM just fine with any non-broken IDE/code editor. 32GB RAM machine is a total beast. That was cheap 1.5 years ago which is why everyone took it, not because it was a necessity. Now the question for sensible people is between 16 vs 32GB, not between 32 vs 64 anymore. 64GB is for really specialized work with special workloads that require memory. Your mp3 player development isn't one.
If you use AI to vibe code, that reduces the requirement even further. Claude Code runs with some hundreds of MB of memory fine. I do a lot of development by running it on tmux, with any screen resolution. Sometimes even from a freaking Android phone with some SSH app.
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Well, It looks like I also need a laptop for offsite demos.
Preferably one with Headphone out, HDMI, and Lan port. Of course, some USB ports as well...
It only needs to last me ~18 months at most, but may still be used after that period.
I dont care abut screen quality or battery life, but the ability at add a second flash drive for a separate Linux boot would be appreciated.
As stated above, 32gb is only to have Win and WSL going with 2 screens and a browser with multiple tabs & VS running. I'll be using incremental builds under a minute each a lot, so I am not expecting to bake the CPU. I dont mind waiting for the occasional full-re-builds.
I'm going to order at the end of this week, so now is the time to narrow my selection.
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Once again I'll say I'm very happy with my 16" Lenovo Legion Pro 5i 2023 model (i9-13900 CPU) with 32 GB RAM.
You can still buy the i9-14900 version on lenovo.com, but of course there are also Core Ultra versions now. Or the 16 core AMD.
It has all the ports you mention, both USB-As and USB-Cs (including PD and DP). There's an empty socket for a 2nd SSD (or you can fill it when you order).
Mine lasted 6 hours on light use on the original Windows 11 before I wiped it or now 5 hours on Ubuntu. I never need more then 2-3.
When at home I use it as my main work beast, screen closed and ssh -X / nomachine from my Mac Mini which I do all my keyboarding on. It's faster in every way than the 32 core 2019 Threadripper 2990wx I still have but now seldom turn on.
And it cost me $1500 as the previous year's model on lenovo.com, which I thought was a great deal.
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I would double check that the "2tb SSD" is a fast cached one, and not a single-chip M.2 2230 OEM one.
Compilation is very IO heavy. You don't want to to waiting for new flash blocks to be cleared.
If you can't find out, see if you can fit an extra ssd in the machine.
And check if dev drives (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/dev-drive/)is a feature you can use.
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I would double check that the "2tb SSD" is a fast cached one, and not a single-chip M.2 2230 OEM one.
Compilation is very IO heavy. You don't want to to waiting for new flash blocks to be cleared.
I don't find that to be the case at all.
Compilation is very CPU-heavy and light on IO. Even running on a machine with a large number of cores you'd struggle to use all the bandwidth available from a 60 MB/s SD card, let alone the slowest SSD — certainly once you have enough RAM to cache the common header files and compiler itself. Writing from the disk cache to the physical media is asynchronous so you're never waiting for flash blocks to be cleared. Output object files are much smaller than the source code and headers read to create them.
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Your projects may not be big enough ;)
I experience it to be very io heavy, lots of small files to read, small blobs to write, files to copy to output.
But perhaps this is a modern .NET/npm issue.
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Your projects may not be big enough ;)
GNU toolchain: binutils, gcc, glibc, built in sequence. LLVM. Linux kernel.
Not small projects.
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My experience is not valid on linux, this has a much better filesystem and I expect better caching.
Maybe it also triggers less anti-malware hooks than on windows.
So basically, get a fast ssd to compensate for Microslop. :-DD
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That said: in the past, used desktop mini PCs were a good bargain. It's worth considering if you are going to be using an external keyboard and mouse and display.
If I was using my laptop in a fixed setting, I would be using an external keyboard, mouse, and display(s) anyway.
For your description I would probably look for a 15-16" laptop whether consumer or bisiness. These are usually better for performance per dollar. The smaller laptops are optimized for weight, portability, and battery life. They aren't cheaper.
I almost bought a 13" laptop for travel, but bought a 15" one instead. In retrospect, 16" would have been better. I did not have any choice on aspect ratio so ended up with 16:9 HD, but 16:10 or taller would be my preference like my desktop monitors.
Something with a lot of cores.
I have a PC built 10 years ago, twin E5-2687W Xeon cpus with 24 cores each, so 48 logical processors. And 256Gb DDR4 memory (bought when memory was a lot cheaper). Since Visual Studio can make use of those cores while compiling a large-ish project with a few thousand files split into 20 dll's, it's still reasonably fast today, although my Mac M3 laptop feels faster.
Does that matter on a laptop? My thick laptop thermal throttles if I take advantage of all of its 8 cores, lowering clock speed to 75% or 50% depending on the power setting.
It has all the ports you mention, both USB-As and USB-Cs (including PD and DP). There's an empty socket for a 2nd SSD (or you can fill it when you order).
My 2021 Lenovo ThinkBook 15 G3 ACL has 2 USB-Cs which both support PD and DP and I now consider this a must have feature. If one should fail, then the laptop is still usable, unlike say my phone. Ports can be replaced on the Framworks laptop so that could work also.
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Does that matter on a laptop? My thick laptop thermal throttles if I take advantage of all of its 8 cores, lowering clock speed to 75% or 50% depending on the power setting.
Having a good number of efficiency cores is useful on a laptop because they can do more work in the same thermal envelope when throttled.
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Does that matter on a laptop? My thick laptop thermal throttles if I take advantage of all of its 8 cores, lowering clock speed to 75% or 50% depending on the power setting.
Having a good number of efficiency cores is useful on a laptop because they can do more work in the same thermal envelope when throttled.
Yup.
I just checked on my 16" i9-13900HX (8P+16E cores) laptop.
With the lid closed and running in "balanced" mode — hitting Fn-q cycles between economy (2.2GHz fixed), balanced, and performance modes — and compiling a Linux amd64 defconfig kernel, the P cores are running at
3.8 GHz first 30 seconds
3.0 GHz until 65 seconds
5.4 GHz doing linking and stuff until finished at 76 seconds
In Performance mode:
4.5 GHz first 10 seconds
4.4 GHz until 20 seconds
4.2 GHz until 26 seconds
4.1 GHz until 38 seconds
4.0 GHz until 43 seconds
3.9 GHz until 46 seconds
3.6 GHz until 53 seconds
5.4 GHz until finished at 64 seconds
It's a LOT louder. My phone with an app, sitting between me and the centre of the front edge of the computer says says a maximum of 47 dBA in performance mode vs 42 dBA in balanced mode against 30 dBA in this room when it's at idle (and with my Pecron E3600LFP quietly humming away taking in solar power about 3m from me ... it gets to 42 dBA for a few minutes from time to time when the fans crank up a bit).
In economy mode it's just a flat 2.2GHz and 30 dBA indistinguishable from idle sound output for the whole 130 seconds of the build. And uses a LOT less battery if you're on battery.
Note: when my aircon cycles on, on the opposite side of the room, that's 48 dBA.
More notes: what internet has to say about sound levels...
High Concentration / Deep Focus: 35 to 40 dBA (similar to a quiet library or soft hum).
General Office Work / Routine Tasks: 45 to 55 dBA (comparable to a quiet suburban home or background refrigerator hum).
Collaborative Areas / Open-Plan Buzz: 50 to 60 dBA (similar to quiet background conversation)
Legal limit in NZ without the employer providing hearing protection: 85 dBA averaged over an 8 hour shift. Holy shift!
All measurements made with the free "Decibel X" app on an iPhone SE 2022.
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Are you 110% sure you want a Win11 machine?
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Does that matter on a laptop? My thick laptop thermal throttles if I take advantage of all of its 8 cores, lowering clock speed to 75% or 50% depending on the power setting.
Having a good number of efficiency cores is useful on a laptop because they can do more work in the same thermal envelope when throttled.
That is a good point. I have not thought in terms of efficiency cores because I have avoided Intel CPUs since they dropped ECC support after the Pentium4, and AMD has not had efficiency cores until recently.
I did some browsing and it seems that underclocked performance cores deliver better performance per watt than efficiency cores, but efficiency cores are so much smaller that more of them can be included for better total performance. I used x265 as my benchmark so maybe it would be different with a more typical and likely bursty workstation workload. If I was waiting for a task to finish, like compiling, then I would prefer greater total performance rather than power efficiency anyway.
Something I just noticed looking through available laptops is that unlike my 2021 Lenovo ThinkBook 15 G3 ACL, most do *not* support more than one mass storage drive. I would prefer to have two nVME drives for more convenient and total storage, but this becomes irrelevant in a fixed desktop environment where the laptop will be docked, as mine usually is.
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Are you 110% sure you want a Win11 machine?
I would prefer Win10 Pro, but the current free VisualStudio will only install on Win11 Pro. You need the paid version for Win10 Pro support as the free one was forcefully dropped by M$.
For multiplatform development, I was recommended .net, which means VisualStudio.
If you can get MINGW C++ to compile .net and C# apps, then I would stick with my current Win7 systems, but something tells me there will be hundreds of brick walls sticking with my old PCs. I'll kust keep them as my media players and servers.
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For multiplatform development, I was recommended .net, which means VisualStudio.
I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree on the first part of that, but don't have all the context, and there's a lot of nuance and opinion there.
The second part used to be functionally true, but isn't anymore. None of them are perfectly "equivalent", but donet is absolutely doable and even pleasant with the CLI tools, VSCode, Rider, MonoDevelop, etc... today.
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For multiplatform development, I was recommended .net, which means VisualStudio.
Well, that's not true!
Here's me just now using .net on my Linux machine. (my version is a couple of years out of date, admittedly ... I haven't used it for a while)
bruce@i9:~$ mkdir hello
bruce@i9:~$ cd hello
bruce@i9:~/hello$ dotnet new console
The template "Console App" was created successfully.
Processing post-creation actions...
Restoring /home/bruce/hello/hello.csproj:
Determining projects to restore...
Restored /home/bruce/hello/hello.csproj (in 40 ms).
Restore succeeded.
bruce@i9:~/hello$ cat Program.cs
// See https://aka.ms/new-console-template for more information
Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");
bruce@i9:~/hello$ dotnet build -c Release
MSBuild version 17.7.3+4fca21998 for .NET
Determining projects to restore...
All projects are up-to-date for restore.
hello -> /home/bruce/hello/bin/Release/net7.0/hello.dll
Build succeeded.
0 Warning(s)
0 Error(s)
Time Elapsed 00:00:01.41
bruce@i9:~/hello$ ./bin/Release/net7.0/hello
Hello, World!
bruce@i9:~/hello$
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.NET development can be multiplatform, but you'll be flooded with warnings like "Call site reachable by all platforms" but "only supported on: 'windows'". :-DD
Did you consider a Framework laptop?
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You seem to have a good amount of RAM, so mount a RAM-disk as your build directory.
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.NET development can be multiplatform, but you'll be flooded with warnings like "Call site reachable by all platforms" but "only supported on: 'windows'". :-DD
Certainly there are some libraries that will only run on Windows. But if you have the CIL then you can compile things using them on any platform. From the command line if you want — as demoed above. Nothing at all forces you to use an IDE, let alone Visual Studio.
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I would prefer Win10 Pro, but the current free VisualStudio will only install on Win11 Pro. You need the paid version for Win10 Pro support as the free one was forcefully dropped by M$.
For multiplatform development, I was recommended .net, which means VisualStudio.
If you can get MINGW C++ to compile .net and C# apps, then I would stick with my current Win7 systems, but something tells me there will be hundreds of brick walls sticking with my old PCs. I'll kust keep them as my media players and servers.
If you have time and patience try to ditch VS and jump in neovim with TMUX(or similar) in a Linux OS.
I am doing this transition right now, expect a long and painful "journey and not a miracle" (quote from my favorite priest Don Giussani).
You will be rewarded by immense boost in productivity in code writing... AFAIK pro SW developers who never take showers and touch grass are addicted to VIM/EMACS and you will get whatever you need....
Of course, you are required to type by touch and know all the VIM/EMACS movements... which alone is not an easy step.
:popcorn:
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You seem to have a good amount of RAM, so mount a RAM-disk as your build directory.
I did that during the XP era when I had 8GB of RAM. This was before Flash SSDs were available.
Flash SSDs, especially nVME ones, can be almost as good if not better now.
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For multiplatform development, I was recommended .net, which means VisualStudio.
Well, that's not true!
Here's me just now using .net on my Linux machine. (my version is a couple of years out of date, admittedly ... I haven't used it for a while)
Now, just to be sure, I just need to get my current .exe demos working on an Android, as a Web service and as a Win64 .exe without learning anything new. I need my dev environment to work with ChatGPT's Codex. And whatever I come up with, it will need to be in an environment where whoever I hire as my app developer team in a few months will be able to work with the code I have, no searching for a specific software engineers who will operate with my linux engineered code.
If this all checks out, and I can get everything converted in a month while learning about linux in the same time, without hiccups, then I can say Linux is worth a look.
Note that I do not want to learn multi-platform development, I am retiring from any form of engineering/coding in before November 1.
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I got the PC. Its speed is speed and capabilities are very adequate as my full build compile times went from ~5min down to 45sec, and partial re-builds down to a few seconds.
I solved the low quality headphone output with a high quality external USB DAC.
:( However, even after stripping down Win11 pro to its essentials, it still manages to send me the occasional desktop add! |O
For now, I need to find a temporary fix to stop this, however, the moment I'm passed my MVP product demo, f--k microshit and I's going straight to Linux. I'm sorry, but doing a boardroom presentation on what supposed to be a professional commercial OS should not pop-up adds mid demo.
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I got the PC. Its speed is speed and capabilities are very adequate as my full build compile times went from ~5min down to 45sec, and partial re-builds down to a few seconds.
I solved the low quality headphone output with a high quality external USB DAC.
:( However, even after stripping down Win11 pro to its essentials, it still manages to send me the occasional desktop add! |O
Why does it do that? I mean :wtf: In what world is that considered a good thing to do?
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I'm sorry, but doing a boardroom presentation on what supposed to be a professional commercial OS should not pop-up adds mid demo.
It doesn't do that!! What program are you using?
Besides which, if you put just a little effort in you can dump all the ads permanently. Mine doesn't ever show ads. Never.
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I'm sorry, but doing a boardroom presentation on what supposed to be a professional commercial OS should not pop-up adds mid demo.
It doesn't do that!! What program are you using?
Besides which, if you put just a little effort in you can dump all the ads permanently. Mine doesn't ever show ads. Never.
No program. A few minutes after logging on, an add popped up for (if I remember) Microsoft Gamepass, or Microsoft Games.
I remember specifically uninstalling all games, ads, and related features.
Note the laptop came with Win11 and I upgraded to Win11pro.
And I did clean everything out.
It has happened twice. Once right after a Windows Update.
The second time was a few days later later. I think right after I linked my 365 business account to my laptop OS so I could run the local version of Office. The second add was half-screen and I did not get time to read it, but it was probably business related.
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This never happened on any windows 11 pc i've seen or used. I recently configured one for my sister so i would know.
But: searching for "windows 11 desktop ads" pointed at this article from last week: https://www.pcworld.com/article/3230487/windows-11s-desktop-is-now-a-full-screen-ad-for-harry-potter-movies.html (https://www.pcworld.com/article/3230487/windows-11s-desktop-is-now-a-full-screen-ad-for-harry-potter-movies.html)
Windows 11's Bing Wallpaper is testing the waters with full-screen ads. A Harry Potter promotion is the first to spark backlash.
so something something wallpaper related? You know, if you have a certain kind of system wallpapers, the one that changes dynamically, that comes with an icon about asking about the current image?
And one thing i had to disable on my win 10 machine was also bing on search through the registry, or bing anything for that matter
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My experience is not valid on linux, this has a much better filesystem and I expect better caching.
Maybe it also triggers less anti-malware hooks than on windows.
The problem with Windows is slow task switching. Compilations which take seconds on Linux can take minutes on Windows. Same hardware, same project, same compiler. Compiling consists of running a whole bunch of tasks in sequence and parallel. Even on Linux you can get a further measureable improvement by tweaking task switching efficiency through kernel parameters.
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The problem with Windows is slow task switching.
And task creation.
Which, incidentally, was exactly the same problem with VAX/VMS vs Unix 45 years ago.
VMS took several seconds to create a process for you when you logged in, and then every program you ran interactively was loaded in turn into the same process (bouncing back to the shell in between).
We had a Unix emulator called "Eunice" running under VMS. Like all Unixes it wanted to use a fresh process for every command. It cached VMS processes for you, so after a few minutes using it you'd have 2 or 3 or 4 processes owned by you.
V W
M N
S T
A nod is as good as a wink to a cutler fish.
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My experience is not valid on linux, this has a much better filesystem and I expect better caching.
Maybe it also triggers less anti-malware hooks than on windows.
The problem with Windows is slow task switching. Compilations which take seconds on Linux can take minutes on Windows. Same hardware, same project, same compiler. Compiling consists of running a whole bunch of tasks in sequence and parallel. Even on Linux you can get a further measureable improvement by tweaking task switching efficiency through kernel parameters.
This gets speed up a lot if you disable anti-malware.
Windows was not built around a zero-trust system. Hence processes can access waaaay to many things. This was later patched, but you still require anti-malware to check if files are known to be bad.
Microsoft is trying to get per-app-sandboxing mainstream, but I feel that's going to cost us even more ram.
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My experience is not valid on linux, this has a much better filesystem and I expect better caching.
Maybe it also triggers less anti-malware hooks than on windows.
The problem with Windows is slow task switching. Compilations which take seconds on Linux can take minutes on Windows. Same hardware, same project, same compiler. Compiling consists of running a whole bunch of tasks in sequence and parallel. Even on Linux you can get a further measureable improvement by tweaking task switching efficiency through kernel parameters.
I have read discussions where Linus Torvalds was asked about why some operating systems performed so poorly and it came down to things like task switching and file mapping not being properly implemented, presumably because they were not considered important and were just checklist items. OSx and Windows were of course at the top of the list.
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My experience is not valid on linux, this has a much better filesystem and I expect better caching.
Maybe it also triggers less anti-malware hooks than on windows.
The problem with Windows is slow task switching. Compilations which take seconds on Linux can take minutes on Windows. Same hardware, same project, same compiler. Compiling consists of running a whole bunch of tasks in sequence and parallel. Even on Linux you can get a further measureable improvement by tweaking task switching efficiency through kernel parameters.
This gets speed up a lot if you disable anti-malware.
I already had that disabled. If you run a virus scanner along, things get even worse.
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...
This gets speed up a lot if you disable anti-malware.
Windows was not built around a zero-trust system. Hence processes can access waaaay to many things. This was later patched, but you still require anti-malware to check if files are known to be bad.
Microsoft is trying to get per-app-sandboxing mainstream, but I feel that's going to cost us even more ram.
Yup, I caught Win11 anti-malware eating 50% of my system resources at one time when I just let the laptop sit. I also once caught my laptop fans going insanely fast in 'Sleep' mode. It not the laptop, its the stupid OS. found a bunch of regs to edit. For now, after my OS patches, the system for now works like a dream (or a nightmare from another angle) Like I said, I cannot wait to ditch Windows permanently...
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VMS took several seconds to create a process for you when you logged in, and then every program you ran interactively was loaded in turn into the same process (bouncing back to the shell in between).
Ah, VMS, or Very Manly System as some used to call it, where emulating a single Unix open() statement could take half a page of code.
DEC tended to over-engineer their stuff.