Gentoo

[RoGeorge]

This weekend I built my first Gentoo.  No chance to do that without a second online computer for reading the guides.

Was pretty slow and tedious, mostly because the wiki was keep talking about too many alternatives and optional things.  As a first timer with Gentoo, it was a challenge to follow what are the mandatory things to do, and disregard the rest. 

In the end, I manged to miss the mandatory grub-mkconfig step, but this was easy to debug, then it got to the login prompt!   

Then, I noticed there is no sudo, as in sudo was not installed.

For some reason I thought it should be able to start a graphic interface already.  No chance.  Then, emerged Plasma.  startx still didn't work, there was a need to create a ~/.xinitrc file with a command line full of parameters in it.

Finally, the KDE/Plasma GUI started, but there was nothing in it!   

No file explorer, no internet browser, no other tools or programs, nothing.  Just the display settings.  Yet, there was a working VLC player, and I could play some movies, but there was no sound.  Also, only the 3 monitors of the nVidia card light up, the 4th one, connected at the i7 GPU had no image.  At this point I took a break.

Emerging a full system seems an effort as big as building my own distro. 

I will probably never have the time (and the will) to read about all the kernel options, or to read pages and pages for each and any tool or program I will need, then to debug and configure each of those.

Is this how Gentoo is supposed to be?
Am I doing it right?

[janoc]

Emerging a full system seems an effort as big as building my own distro. 

I will probably never have the time (and the will) to read about all the kernel options, or to read pages and pages for each and any tool or program I will need, then to debug and configure each of those.

Is this how Gentoo is supposed to be?
Am I doing it right?

Yep. That's how Gentoo is. It is not a distribution meant for "normal" users but for people who prefer building everything from sources and then go crazy tinkering with and customizing everything.

What you are seeing are simply consequences of it - part of Gentoo's way of doing things is to keep everything as stock as possible, with minimal dependencies. So if you install Plasma you get exactly that - a bare desktop with no applications or applets. Those you need to install separately. Etc.

I am not sure why did you attempt this, there are much saner distributions around than Gentoo. Especially if you want to actually use the system instead of tinkering with it endlessly.

[RoGeorge]

I am attempting this in the hope to have my Desktop OS that:

• does not need to reinstall the OS periodically (i.e. yearly Ubuntu or 5 years Ubuntu LTS)
• does not enforce upgrades (i.e. Ubuntu stops providing updates with the user refuses to upgrade, or Fedora simply keep rolling updates, Windows 10 forced upgrades, etc.)
• does not reset my settings/customization (i.e. Windows 10 use to reset all settings on upgrades, latest Ubuntu 20.04 LTS prerelease changed the default desktop background with some other default - excusable only for a pre-release, or else I'll get annoyed if an update will change my background)
• provides security patches (most I know does not provide patches for older versions)
• can work with all the present hardware (both nVidia and i7 GPUs, both onboard soundcard and GPU sound, read motherboard sensors, etc. yet nothing very new, the hardware is about 5 years old)

Since I switched to Linux only (I want to thank Windows 10 for making me hating and loathing it so much that I took the effort to migrate to Linux, and now it is all so much better.  Thank you Microsoft  for making me to migrate to Linux. ) the only two able to boot with a GUI on my desktop were Ubuntu and Fedora.

At first I thought Fedora (a rolling distribution) will be too cutting edge, and won't be stable enough.  I guess I was wrong, because I have had no problem with Fedora, but also didn't use it much.  I thought Ubuntu will be just right.  Well Ubuntu was OK, but it was a yearly distribution, and the year has passed.  No security updates for my old Ubuntu.

I should reinstall.  This time I want to try KDE/Plasma.  Gnome was OK but needed tweaking tools from the day one.
- Ubuntu 20.04 LTS looks like a good choice, 5 years security update, but from all the new bells and whistles I want only one, ZFS root (able to install Ubuntu on a native ZFS filesystem, but only the Gnome edition has that, Kubuntu 20.04 LTS doesn't have ZFS install yet).
- Gentoo let one do whatever, including install on ZFS, no browser-desktop integration, etc. just that it is a little too explicit and too time demanding for me.
- Fedora seems now very appealing exactly for the reason I rejected it an year ago.  It is a rolling distribution, so I hope I'll never need to reinstall.  Also Fedora is driven/sponsored by the commercial Red Hat, which I think is an advantage.

TL;DR What distro for the 5 bullet points above?
Gentoo - seems perfect in freedom of choices, but too time demanding
Ubuntu 20.04 LTS - doesn't have ZFS install and KDE/Plasma in the same time, also updates for only 5 years
Fedora - not sure yet

Should I go with something else?

[Ampera]

Arch Linux, which is my distribution of choice, might be what you'd like. It's like Gentoo, but cranked back a notch. It still allows you to completely customize your system, with a very easy package management solution, but it provides compiled binaries for the vast majority of software, with stranger software coming from the AUR, which is fairly reliable when you have all the common build tools needed.

Arch Linux also operates on a rolling release mechanism, meaning software comes direct from the horse's mouth, and usually before almost anyone else. That means the latest drivers, improvements, and hardware support. It also does this quite well, in the few (I've lost track) years I've used Arch Linux, I've had maybe a couple very easily fixed issues from updating, that were always a result of me using very unique software off the AUR.

PS: This specifically means there are no version numbers, and no reinstalling the system. You just upgrade packages and that's about it.

I also suggest it because it's incredibly well documented, with perhaps one of the best community wikis of any Linux distribution out there, so good it often gets used as reference by many people for /other/ distributions too. I also know how to use Arch Linux, and have seen all the various easy pitfalls, so I can explain to my friends how to get set up with it fairly quickly. If you want help, PM me on the forums, or hop on the EEVBlog IRC #eevblog irc.austnet.org

[rdl]

Can't you just update manually or install unattended-upgrades?

[I wanted a rude username]

Obligatory: Gentoo is rice.

Debian and derived distros (e.g. Ubuntu) don't require reinstallation to upgrade. You can full-upgrade from one Ubuntu LTS to the next. It's painless and retains settings (at least most of the time).

Unfortunately, your other requirements are contradictory. You want support for the latest hardware, but also don't want to upgrade.

• If you want a system you won't have to upgrade for 10 years, you'll have to pay for it (e.g. Red Hat Desktop, Ubuntu Desktop Essential).
• If you want support for the latest hardware, you'll need to be running at least the latest kernel, and in practice a recent distro release

[nctnico]

I second the suggestion for Debian. Not the latest & greatest versions but it is well tested. nVidia cards shouldn't be a problem; just follow the installation guide for the nVidia drivers. Works for me. The biggest pitfall is to chase the latest software versions. This will always lead to being an early adoptor who is bothered by all the flaws. Stay behind a little (like Debian does) and you get a much more mature anvironment.

[SiliconWizard]

Arch Linux, which is my distribution of choice, might be what you'd like. It's like Gentoo, but cranked back a notch. It still allows you to completely customize your system, with a very easy package management solution, but it provides compiled binaries for the vast majority of software, with stranger software coming from the AUR, which is fairly reliable when you have all the common build tools needed.

Same here.

[james_s]

Gentoo is a distro to play with if your goal is to dig in and tinker with all the gory details, it's a tinkerers OS, you will be endlessly fiddling with it and it will never feel like a polished consumer OS unless you want to invest an enormous amount of effort. You'd have to be a real masochist to try to actually use it to get stuff done.

There are hundreds of distros out there but even Ubuntu you don't have to update all the time if you don't want to.

[RoGeorge]

Gentoo makes one learn how GNU/Linux ticks inside, and this is kind of addictive.   

As a side note, found on https://forums.gentoo.org/ a link to a free online book, a sort of GNU/Linux 101 with Gentoo in mind:  Linux Sea by Sven Vermeulen

[0db]

• does not need to reinstall the OS periodically (i.e. yearly Ubuntu or 5 years Ubuntu LTS)
• does not enforce upgrades (i.e. Ubuntu stops providing updates with the user refuses to upgrade, or Fedora simply keep rolling updates, Windows 10 forced upgrades, etc.)
• does not reset my settings/customization (i.e. Windows 10 use to reset all settings on upgrades, latest Ubuntu 20.04 LTS prerelease changed the default desktop background with some other default - excusable only for a pre-release, or else I'll get annoyed if an update will change my background)
• provides security patches (most I know does not provide patches for older versions)
• can work with all the present hardware (both nVidia and i7 GPUs, both onboard soundcard and GPU sound, read motherboard sensors, etc. yet nothing very new, the hardware is about 5 years old)

Ironically, Gentoo needs to be constantly upgraded and you need to emerge things weekly to keep the system coherent and working.

[bd139]

To quote a friend of mine on two separate days:

"Gentoo is amazing. Best thing ever. It's just what I wanted"

"Fucking Gentoo broke my sounds again"

And that's Gentoo users. As mentioned above it's the same shit as ricers. So someone lowers the suspension on their scrap heap BMW then get stuck on a speed bump every two minutes. But the hooning in between these events is pretty good.

If you want something reliable just get CentOS in (OSS version of RHEL desktop). It is absolutely bomb proof. But don't expect anything shiny. It's a Volvo.

[RoGeorge]

[Arch Linux] it's incredibly well documented

Wow, very good wiki pages, indeed, thank you!   

Let's hope it will stay the same in the future.  I've just read on Arch website that former Arch leader Aaron Griffin (phrakture) stepped back, and from now on a new leader will be elected each 2 years, from February 2020 is Levente Polyak (anthraxx): https://www.archlinux.org/news/the-future-of-the-arch-linux-project-leader/

I don't like that Arch is now systemd only, and officially dropped the support for SysVinit, but maybe I should give Arch a try anyway.

[SiliconWizard]

To give Gentoo some credit, the idea of compiling everything from source is actually a lot closer to the "spirit" of open source IMO. Having centralized entities (distribution makers) that build official binaries for you can be seen as a security hazard in the grand scheme of things.

That said, it's so time- and energy-consuming (so inefficient overall), that its practical use as a model remains limited, and whereas I've tested it in the past, I wouldn't bother these days. Too inefficient. But I still get the idea, and it's not a completely dumb one on some levels. It's just very inefficient.

[Ampera]

[Arch Linux] it's incredibly well documented

Wow, very good wiki pages, indeed, thank you!   

Let's hope it will stay the same in the future.  I've just read on Arch website that former Arch leader Aaron Griffin (phrakture) stepped back, and from now on a new leader will be elected each 2 years, from February 2020 is Levente Polyak (anthraxx): https://www.archlinux.org/news/the-future-of-the-arch-linux-project-leader/

I don't like that Arch is now systemd only, and officially dropped the support for SysVinit, but maybe I should give Arch a try anyway.

That doesn't really mean it's systemd only. What's great about Arch is if you don't like something such as systemd, you can totally replace it with your own init system, like SysVinit. So long as you supply your own init scripts, which you can likely nick from other distros. That being said, systemd doesn't get in my way, so that's alright then.

[Halcyon]

But don't expect anything shiny. It's a Volvo.

It's been a while since you've driven a Volvo hasn't it?

You mean it's a Volvo 240GL

[bd139]

Yes. Was thinking of a 740 

[bsfeechannel]

So someone lowers the suspension on their scrap heap BMW then get stuck on a speed bump every two minutes. But the hooning in between these events is pretty good.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[mrflibble]

To paraphrase bd139's friend, Gentoo can indeed be summarized by: Fucking Gentoo is amazing.  Best thing ever. It's just what I wanted ... except today. .

If you're looking for something that just works and maintains its state of working, I'd suggest Debian. As for your zfs requirement, should not be a problem with the current stable version:
https://wiki.debian.org/ZFS
https://github.com/openzfs/zfs/wiki/Debian

If for some reason (e.g learning purposes) you really want a distro that leans more towards tinkering , but not in a detrimental way, then I'd suggest Arch. As already mentioned, arch documentation is pretty good.

Oh yeah, if you are in the mucking about/rebooting/reinstalling phase ... antiX is a nice lightweight liveboot iso. Dump on usb stick, boot, have working X11 environment in no time. Also works fine on old hardware. Obviously not intended as the end station in your quest for the ultimate desktop distro. Just a tool suggestion to add to the collection.
https://antixlinux.com/

[Monkeh]

If you're looking for something that just works and maintains its state of working, I'd suggest Debian.

Only in-between kneejerk half-arsed violent changes like their switch to systemd, which is still partial at best.

Sorry, lost all vestiges of respect for their so-called stability there.

[RoGeorge]

Indeed, there's a lot of lobby in promoting Systemd.  Not sure if Debian adopted Systemd before or after the founder of Debian, Ian Murdock, died.

[james_s]

Yes. Was thinking of a 740 

Love my 740, and my 240, the 240 reminds me of a DC-3, many have tried to improve upon it but there has been no true replacement offering the same blend of function, ruggedness, versatility and elegant simplicity.

Volvo is dead IMHO, the vehicles they sell today are the same bloated luxury cars everyone else is making. They abandoned their whole customer base that wanted safe, utterly practical and dependable cars and handed that market over to Subaru. They spent decades crafting a reputation for building safe, rugged cars and threw it away over just a few short years.

[james_s]

I see Gentoo as a bit like building a computer from scratch on perfboard. You can customize it any way you like, you'll learn a lot about how a computer works because you're forced to, in the end you'll wind up with something that is exactly what you've designed it to be, except that there won't really be an end because you'll always be tinkering with it.

[RoGeorge]

There is always LFS (Linux From Scratch) 

[mrflibble]

If you're looking for something that just works and maintains its state of working, I'd suggest Debian.

Only in-between kneejerk half-arsed violent changes like their switch to systemd, which is still partial at best.

Sorry, lost all vestiges of respect for their so-called stability there.

Fair enough. So fair in fact, that I will join your dislike of systemd and raise you one seriously-dislike-systemd. Possibly accompanied by some derisive remarks.

There certainly is room for improvement with sysvinit. Or rather there is room for some alternative solution besides sysvinit. Competition is good and all that. It's just too bad that systemd has happened to be the thing that popped up, and stuck around. For one thing it is entirely too desktop centric, and for another dbus sucks donkeybawllz. 

I still secretely hope someone will spend a good chunk of time to design a good architecture that takes the good parts from previous solutions, and learns from past mistakes. I.e nuke stupid shit that turned out to be a bad idea. And only when there is a good design, then start coding. At least that (hopefully) makes it easier to fork it when for some reason or another you get a bunch of ego driven morons that close totally legit bug reports, just because it does not stroke their egos and/or does not align with their random-generator fed "vision". Some time ago seriously considered getting a small group of non-morons together and giving it our collective best. Buuuut, the cost in time and sanity is not for the feint of heart, so noooope. Choose your battles and all that. I'm not the right person for sustained looooong term "telling other people why the proposed solution is significantly better than the current situation", aka technology advocacy. I'd be willing to do something like that, but it does rhyme with "send me money". Will do architecture in exchange for those rectangular pieces of paper that make people happy, and will even do my politest bestest effort to talk to morons inform the various stakeholders in the organization and apprise them of pertinent project updates. Will definitely not do that for fun.

As for avahi zerosense network config ... again nuke from orbit. Mmmmh, actually that might be small enough to embrace and extend. Going all micro$oft on that certainly would be fitting. 

Anyways, enough of a sidetrack for now. Oh oh, almost enough of a sidetrack. @Monkeh, and anyone else really who has a good idea: what would you consider to be a good solution for someone that liked debian up to the point of systemd crap injection? As a user I mean, not as tech person spending time on creating alternate solutions fit for human consumption. Because I have considered jumping ship, but after evaluation the best match (for me) still was debian. Incidentally that's why I still recommend Debian to other people. Every solution is a tradeoff... As an example option that didn't make it: *bsd as general desktop ==> too much hassle.

Okay, sidetrack really done for now. Sorry RoGeorge.

Sooooo, about that gentoo huh...