Author Topic: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?  (Read 10751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DiTBhoTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3796
  • Country: gb
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2021, 10:21:09 am »
A0=Hash Rate
A1=Bitcoin Price
A2=Power consumption
A3=Cost per KW/h

Profit/day = f(A0,A1,A2,A3)

{ A0++, A2--, A3--} : ---> f++

{ A0++, A2-- }: ---> buy modern efficient ASICs?
A3 -- : ---> use solar cells?
The opposite of courage is not cowardice, it is conformity. Even a dead fish can go with the flow
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8973
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2021, 02:22:12 pm »
Which 7 mobile devices?
3x Moto E, Nook HD, Kindle Fire, ZTE Speed, Galaxy Rush. All the phones I bought cheap specifically for mining, the tablets I already had.
Quote
A0=Hash Rate
A1=Bitcoin Price
A2=Power consumption
A3=Cost per KW/h

Profit/day = f(A0,A1,A2,A3)

{ A0++, A2--, A3--} : ---> f++

{ A0++, A2-- }: ---> buy modern efficient ASICs?
A3 -- : ---> use solar cells?
The problem with newer ASICs is that they're far more expensive than older used ASICs. Thus why those older ASICs are good for those with "free" electricity. Besides, that would get more use out of hardware that otherwise would be thrown away.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline mikejonesny

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 2
  • Country: sg
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2021, 03:18:44 pm »
amazing to see again lots of interest in btc
 

Offline Syntax Error

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 584
  • Country: gb
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2021, 08:52:42 pm »
Economically, the problem is Crypto Mining is implictly anti-competitive. The notion of Difficulty was Satoshi's idealistic attempt to prevent the rise of a cartel-of-actors; a cartel who could gain so much hash rate by simply having enough resources to buy up, for example, all of the GPUs on Earth. In the same way a Federal competition regulator operates by preventing a corporation from taking over the competition to destroy future access to the market (Alphabet?), by algorithmically increasing the difficulty with a rise in block speeds (hash rate), should be enough to act as an implicit market regulator. In a market that's designed to have no regulation.

Unfortuntely difficulty regulation works in completely the opposite direction. This is because it is in the interest of the dominant competitors to invest in hash rate; not to improve the block resolution speed but, to make mining so darn expensive that only their cartel is left with exclusive access to the mining pool. When eventually the difficulty decreases as other players drop from the mining game, the cartel-of-actors is left controlling the difficulty.

In my opinion.

Suggestion for 2021. Bury your USB Block Erupter in a time capsule, and leave it for future generations to ponder the insanity of making such a device.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 08:56:40 pm by Syntax Error »
 
The following users thanked this post: daqq, DiTBho

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9810
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2021, 09:58:59 pm »
Those "electricity included in rent" schemes are basically "take advantage of it or it takes advantage of you" schemes. The only way to win appears to be going all out with a sizable setup. Or don't play it and pay for electricity separately (in return for a much lower rent) like most people do.

Nowadays, a common source of "free" electricity would be from your own solar panels when your own usage is low, most likely during spring/fall if you don't have net metering. If you can't find anything better to do with the surplus, might as well mine some altcoins with hardware you already have. The efficiency might be low, but it's going to be a lot better than the zero you would get if you didn't.

Those 7 mobile devices were making something like $150/month back when the difficulty was low. Call it a hobby if you like but it's not something the average hobbyist would call insignificant.
"take advantage of it or it takes advantage of you" is just waffle to justify behaviour which isn't quite up to snuff. It's like taking 20 packs of sugar because otherwise the restaurants is taking advantage of you, or selling power to your neighbours using extension cords. Functioning adults shouldn't need to be told that's frowned upon. Besides, most home owners will also include a fair use policy or allow domestic use of their property and amenities only.

Solar power is far from free. It takes quite a few years to break even. $150 a month is what a kid with a paper route makes. That's hardly a business venture, especially if you're doing it on someone else's dime.
 
The following users thanked this post: daqq, ebastler

Offline SVFeingold

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 260
  • Country: us
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2021, 11:28:48 pm »
Solar power isn't free, but how much do you really think you need to run 7 mobile devices? Figure a 100 kW solar farm oughta do it? Nah better make it 200.

I get the temptation to make up ridiculous scenarios that nobody in their right mind would actually try to implement, but it's not really informative. Assuming our cyrpto-mining enthusiast has enough money to set up a real operation then yeah, you could pay off the solar panels reasonably quickly. Assuming you don't live in Norway or something.

Whether it's a total waste of energy is another topic but hey, at least it's renewable energy!
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8973
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2021, 11:38:07 pm »
Unfortuntely difficulty regulation works in completely the opposite direction. This is because it is in the interest of the dominant competitors to invest in hash rate; not to improve the block resolution speed but, to make mining so darn expensive that only their cartel is left with exclusive access to the mining pool. When eventually the difficulty decreases as other players drop from the mining game, the cartel-of-actors is left controlling the difficulty.
Perhaps if we make the mining do something useful outside the blockchain, such as medical research or hosting content, we could effectively "trick" the cartel into doing something useful. I don't think cancer patients would care if the research that's helping to heal them was done by millions of individuals or a few data centers.
"take advantage of it or it takes advantage of you" is just waffle to justify behaviour which isn't quite up to snuff. It's like taking 20 packs of sugar because otherwise the restaurants is taking advantage of you, or selling power to your neighbours using extension cords. Functioning adults shouldn't need to be told that's frowned upon. Besides, most home owners will also include a fair use policy or allow domestic use of their property and amenities only.

Solar power is far from free. It takes quite a few years to break even. $150 a month is what a kid with a paper route makes. That's hardly a business venture, especially if you're doing it on someone else's dime.
Did you miss the part where the rent for places that include electricity is a lot higher than for similar properties that do not include electricity? Something like $200/month extra when for similar apartments in that area, $100/month for electricity is already on the high side. It would be a different matter if it was just $80/month extra where everyone is expected to conserve to keep it that low. In reality, if mining crypto is bad, so should be refusing to turn off the HVAC or at least reducing its use when leaving home. (I think the latter is what those schemes are marketed towards.)

If you don't have net metering, then sizing your solar setup is a tradeoff between covering more summer/winter usage and not being able to get good utilization during spring/fall. Crypto mining using cheap hardware during spring/fall is one way to boost utilization. I suppose you could keep it small so there won't be much surplus, except solar panels often get cheaper as you buy more at once.

The way you refuse $150/month sounds like you're the type who refuses to own a garden because you can buy fruit and vegetables for cheap at the local grocery store. Fine, you're helping to keep the difficulty from rising as fast. Or actually calculate how much you make compared to the few minutes you spend per day maintaining it and it turns out to be a decent rate. (Good luck delivering the papers while only using a few minutes per day or less!)
Solar power isn't free, but how much do you really think you need to run 7 mobile devices? Figure a 100 kW solar farm oughta do it? Nah better make it 200.

I get the temptation to make up ridiculous scenarios that nobody in their right mind would actually try to implement, but it's not really informative. Assuming our cyrpto-mining enthusiast has enough money to set up a real operation then yeah, you could pay off the solar panels reasonably quickly. Assuming you don't live in Norway or something.

Whether it's a total waste of energy is another topic but hey, at least it's renewable energy!
A single 100W panel was all it took to power my mining setup at that time, with some left over to run other stuff.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Syntax Error

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 584
  • Country: gb
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2021, 01:10:39 am »
Perhaps if we make the mining do something useful outside the blockchain, such as medical research or hosting content, we could effectively "trick" the cartel into doing something useful. I don't think cancer patients would care if the research that's helping to heal them was done by millions of individuals or a few data centers.
I've pondered if 'citizen science' would be a use for all of those domestic internet routers? Most routers are potent little machines running some Linux-Busybox distro. Just a few clock cycles per machine would soon add up across a whole ISPs estate. Some 26M+ CPE devices in the UK alone. Of course, electricity is free because it's paid for by the householder. Polynomials anyone?

As for the cartel, the chance of block rewards are just enough incentive to make the risk worth taking. But what is the incentive if there are no returns on investment? World peace, a cure for Malaria/Zika, proof of quantum gravity? Nar, these guys want cold hard US dollars, and a crypto bank in Gran Cayman to hide it all from the IRS. For techies, crypto is a whole universe of hardware and software peaks to conquer. Which is a good thing. It gives us something to do with the free college dorm electricity. But for the investment trusts and criminal pyramid schemes that are funding the crypto arms race, it's the round trip time from fiat to fiat that motivates them. One day it will be too difficult to mine the last ounces from the block, and the floor will fall out the ASIC hardware market. <<Poor is the last man left holding the blockchain>> But there might be money to be made from all of that scrap metal.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8973
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2021, 01:47:59 am »
I've pondered if 'citizen science' would be a use for all of those domestic internet routers? Most routers are potent little machines running some Linux-Busybox distro. Just a few clock cycles per machine would soon add up across a whole ISPs estate. Some 26M+ CPE devices in the UK alone. Of course, electricity is free because it's paid for by the householder. Polynomials anyone?
Probably would work better to add some storage and create a P2P content distribution network. While we're at it, also add in P2P wireless mesh networking to further boost bandwidth. If we end up with a Youtube alternative that's partially P2P in nature, the individuals will at least keep the "cartel" honest - every video they refuse to host will instead be hosted by individuals. Add in cryptocurrency rewards for "seeding" content and everyone will be encouraged to participate.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline Sallymilr

  • Newbie
  • !
  • Posts: 1
  • Country: gb
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2021, 07:42:06 am »
Thank you very much for the formula, but there are some flaws in this regard!
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2021, 08:18:38 am »
Thank you very much for the formula, but there are some flaws in this regard!

I feel some link spam coming... "Welcome" to the forum, Sallymilr. Shall we wait until you add a spam link to the post above or have you banned right away to save us all some hassle?  >:D
 

Offline ebastler

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6202
  • Country: de
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2021, 03:49:32 pm »
of course it's worth it in 2021, this is the perfect time for it, as bitcoin has grown A LOT. The only problem is that the prices for the hardware have grown as well. But it's absolutely clear that bitcoin is in trend this year, everyone tries to get some btc. Another way to earn it is ###. I don't know how effective it is, but I see more and more people doing it. 2021 is the year of bitcoin, everyone is crazy, trying to get it. All this stuff with mining reminds me about the golden fever  :-DD

And there goes another one. Reported. Bye, ShaoCan!  :--

I don't get this link spam business. The posters spend a somewhat significant amount of time on one single post: Looking for the "right" thread (stale and somewhat relevant to their topic), creating an account, posting some kind-of-matching stuff, jotting down the account details so they can come back later, sometimes checking back multiple times to ensure the thread is silent, then coming back to add the spam link, and reporting the done deed back to some client. Presumably the client also spend a moment to list the submitted link, and check whether it has survived after a few days.

Does anyone have an idea what a spammer gets paid for successfully posting a link? Why is this worth the spammer's time, and how big is the value to their clients? Is this all about page ranks in Google, or do they actually hope to directly attract customers who find and follow the link?
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: hardware for bitcoin: is it worth it in 2021?
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2021, 05:29:20 pm »
I suspect it's largely automated. They probably have a script written for each of the major forum packages that does most of the work. Then they just have to sign up for an account and get through the capchas. It's possible even finding the thread and posting a "relevant" message is fully automated, they could search for keywords like bitcoin, money, investment, etc in the post titles. Doesn't have to be super impressive AI.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf