Hell freezes over...

[nctnico]

How is the desktop marcket shrinking? I now own 1 PC and two laptops. That is 3 licenses of the same OS, 3 years ago i had 2 machines and 5 years ago I had 1. I still have only 1 mobile phone. And of course i could not work for my employer without a PC and now i have a work laptop so I am the user of 5 machines in total.

Maybe your desktop market is booming but if you'd looked up the statistics then you'd see world wide the number of desktop PCs is steadily declining.

[nctnico]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

That isn't true at all. The Linux ecosystem is based on Unix and therefore is compliant with POSIX ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX ). The GUI system is based on X-windows and the underlying APIs (which will move to the newer Weston / Wayland in the next couple of years). And then there are OpenGL and Vulkan for 3D graphics. If there is any group of OSses for which it is easy to write interchangeable software for then it is Unix. Unlike Windows, Unix operating systems (and thus Linux) are based on actual industry standards.

[Mr. Scram]

Really? So it's microsofts fault that software companies WILL support MAC but will NOT touch linux? what did MAC which is an equally minor player do to get special treatment?

This thread is both hilarious and worrisome at the same time. The mental gymnastics some people go through to make the outside world fit their internal beliefs are incredible. When facts don't align they're no reason to re-examine what may be a more nuanced matter than thought but instead are labelled either propaganda or a ploy of "the enemy". Though relatively benign here, this is how extremism works.

[Simon]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

That isn't true at all. The Linux ecosystem is based on Unix and therefore is compliant with POSIX ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX ). The GUI system is based on X-windows and the underlying APIs (which will move to the newer Weston / Wayland in the next couple of years). And then there are OpenGL and Vulkan for 3D graphics. If there is any group of OSses for which it is easy to write interchangeable software for then it is Unix. Unlike Windows, Unix operating systems (and thus Linux) are based on actual industry standards.

Yes but industry standards does not mean user standards. If someone writes a program that works on a certain distribution can you expect them to support it or take complaints of it not working on another distribution? Lets take an example. Can i install KiCad on any distribution of linex. it is what I now use, so apparently itwill run with no issues on anything called "Linux"

As for the desktop market shrinking, the market may be shrinking but why does that mean use? I am sorry but the statistic is correct for what it says. SALES not users are shrinking. And as all our global economy cares about is growth this is a terrible thing. As i said before. what about laptops? tell me the sales figures for laptops. Let me guess, sales of laptops are up.

My employer uses 3D CAD softawre with a support contract. Even on windows we has issues. Can you say that they can develop the same software for linux and it work on any distro. Can you guarantee less calls to support if they let it loose on linux?

[Simon]

Really? So it's microsofts fault that software companies WILL support MAC but will NOT touch linux? what did MAC which is an equally minor player do to get special treatment?

This thread is both hilarious and worrisome at the same time. The mental gymnastics some people go through to make the outside world fit their internal beliefs are incredible. When facts don't align they're no reason to re-examine what may be a more nuanced matter than thought but instead are labelled either propaganda or a ploy of "the enemy". Though relatively benign here, this is how extremism works.

OK, so it is microsofts fault that it was more appealing to users than linux and under some sort of conspiracy theory we blame M$ for the marketing choices af another entity - Astounding but OK.....

[Nominal Animal]

If someone writes a program that works on a certain distribution can you expect them to support it or take complaints of it not working on another distribution?

If they are too inept to write the application to work on all (or almost all) Linux distributions, the problem is their own making.

I can do it, so it is definitely possible.

If they don't want to go to the expense of hiring competent developers, they can always do an AppImage per hardware architecture (possibly just AMD64).

The solution is not to impose The One Accepted Thing and exclude everything else. Just require a better product.  I keep harping about this, but it does not seem to sink in any. 

[Simon]

Well then the actual distro selection is not a problem. But people still need to choose to install linux and developers already have a market for windows software. I aim to move to linux but it's sort the sort of thing I wauld try nd get my dad to do. He got flumacst when he got a new laptop (yea another dent in those PC sales) with a password to get into windows....

[techman-001]

So i can run Kicad on chromium?

Why not ?
Just enable the Linux facility and install the Kicad Debian package.

[nctnico]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

That isn't true at all. The Linux ecosystem is based on Unix and therefore is compliant with POSIX ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POSIX ). The GUI system is based on X-windows and the underlying APIs (which will move to the newer Weston / Wayland in the next couple of years). And then there are OpenGL and Vulkan for 3D graphics. If there is any group of OSses for which it is easy to write interchangeable software for then it is Unix. Unlike Windows, Unix operating systems (and thus Linux) are based on actual industry standards.

Yes but industry standards does not mean user standards. If someone writes a program that works on a certain distribution can you expect them to support it or take complaints of it not working on another distribution? Lets take an example. Can i install KiCad on any distribution of linex. it is what I now use, so apparently itwill run with no issues on anything called "Linux"

As long as the libraries have the right version for the Kicad binary this shouldn't be a problem.

My employer uses 3D CAD softawre with a support contract. Even on windows we has issues. Can you say that they can develop the same software for linux and it work on any distro. Can you guarantee less calls to support if they let it loose on linux?

It is not about less calls to support. What software developers want to do is make support cost as least as possible. For example: if I write PC software I only guarantee it will work on a professional (for business) Dell machine with an Intel CPU. The same goes for 'supporting' Linux distributions'; you want to limit the number of configurations you test software on and need to train support staff. This doesn't say the software won't run on a different Linux distribution or Windows version but you are on your own.

[Karel]

More facts:
Most industrial/professional EDA is available for Linux.
For example:

• Zuken CR-5000 & CR-7000
• Cadence Allegro
• Keysight ADS

The (mediocre) altium designer and Orcad are exceptions.
The same for MCU firmware and FPGA development, they are all available for Linux.

[Simon]

It is not about less calls to support. What software developers want to do is make support cost as least as possible. For example: if I write PC software I only guarantee it will work on a professional (for business) Dell machine with an Intel CPU. The same goes for 'supporting' Linux distributions'; you want to limit the number of configurations you test software on and need to train support staff. This doesn't say the software won't run on a different Linux distribution or Windows version but you are on your own.

Which is about less calls to support and development time.

[Simon]

More facts:
Most industrial/professional EDA is available for Linux.
For example:

• Zuken CR-5000 & CR-7000
• Cadence Allegro
• Keysight ADS

The (mediocre) altium designer and Orcad are exceptions.
The same for MCU firmware and FPGA development, they are all available for Linux.

But none of the main 3D CAD players. If developers saw linux as an aption customers would too.

[Simon]

So your saying it's the most expensive programs that also have a linux version? what have I been saying?

[nctnico]

More facts:
Most industrial/professional EDA is available for Linux.
For example:

• Zuken CR-5000 & CR-7000
• Cadence Allegro
• Keysight ADS

The (mediocre) altium designer and Orcad are exceptions.

Not quite.. Orcad PCB Editor is Allegro and it runs on Linux. I've seen some screenshots of what seems to be a new schematics package for Orcad and it wouldn't surprise me if that runs on Linux. Dunno whether it will be an improvement over the good old Orcad Capture but we'll see.

[nctnico]

So your saying it's the most expensive programs that also have a linux version? what have I been saying?

KiCad is free. GCC is free. Orcad is cheaper compared to Altium.

I think the major 3D software companies must be working on Linux versions by now. Otherwise they'll start missing the boat. One of my customers does all his 3D design using FreeCad.

[Mr. Scram]

Linux being well supported by the engineering world isn't a reality. Some applications are but many of the major applications aren't. If you can't run Solidworks on a natively supported OS few will bother. That will remain an issue even if some versions of Linux were to be supported as companies spend eye-watering amounts of money on certified hardware and drivers with the best support available to ensure as little downtime as possible. Those companies aren't going to run OSs without explicit software and driver support. The current situation is just not compatible with the obligatory ass covering any kind of serious engineering tends to come with. Obviously the same argument applies to Windows and Microsoft if it were to remove too much control introducing liabilities.

[Simon]

I'm not sure autodesk are planning one. Certainly not for fusion 360, i have seen that statement from them but they support MAC. Fusion 360 is where they do all of their development I am told. I just sat through a boring sales pitch at work about siemens solid edge and there was no mention about linux.

[Mr. Scram]

KiCad is free. GCC is free. Orcad is cheaper compared to Altium.

I think the major 3D software companies must be working on Linux versions by now. Otherwise they'll start missing the boat. One of my customers does all his 3D design using FreeCad.

Miss what boat? The mythical SS "Year of Linux"? No matter how much some people wish it to be true it's not close to happening as of yet. Companies will follow the money and that's still in the Windows and Mac side of things.

[Karel]

The free and paid versions of FPGA development software from Xilinx and Intel (former Altera) run on Linux as well.

[rstofer]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

Are you thinking here about the costs of keeping up with the incessant changes in the OS?  That has always annoyed me with Nvidia and Linux.  Every time the kernel changed, I had to rebuild the graphic drivers.  AFAIK that is still the case.  Nvidia won't go open source and Linux keeps changing.

I would think that developers have to include a cost for keeping up with changes and there is no governing body for anything except the kernel and that is strictly Linus' baby.

The reason I hate Ubuntu:  The arrogant developers decided that the system buttons should be on the wrong side.   In earlier incantations, you could change the location by modifying some file in your user directory (I have forgotten how) but latter on their arrogance reached entirely new heights; you can't move the buttons back where they belong no matter what you do.  Two or three guys get to decide that everybody else in the world is wrong and the buttons belong on the top left.

The open source community is not a place to design into.  In many ways, it is like nailing Jello to a wall.  No matter what you do, it won't stay in place.

Yes, Linux is designed into IoT, cell phones, some tablets; places where price of the OS is a significant consideration. In fact, the driving force is probably the need for customization. As I said before, Linux is a bit player in the desktop (or laptop) market.  Even when free, they can't give it away.  The PC manufacturers really want to use a stable platform, something with backward compatibility and, most important, something that isn't changing out from under them.  Linux will likely never be more than a 2% bit player in the desktop market.

But it is very useful for command line development work.

[bsfeechannel]

Yes, Linux is designed into IoT, cell phones, some tablets; places where price of the OS is a significant consideration. In fact, the driving force is probably the need for customization. As I said before, Linux is a bit player in the desktop (or laptop) market.  Even when free, they can't give it away.  The PC manufacturers really want to use a stable platform, something with backward compatibility and, most important, something that isn't changing out from under them.  Linux will likely never be more than a 2% bit player in the desktop market.

All those "harmful" changes do not seem to affect Android. So the argument does not compute. Something else is missing to explain the 2%.

PC Market Shrinks For the Seventh Consecutive Year
by Felix Richter, Jul 12, 2018

Global PC shipments dropped to their lowest level since 2006 last year. According to estimates from market research firm Gartner, PC vendors shipped a total of 259 million computers in 2018, down from 263 million the year before. 2018 marked the seventh consecutive year of declining sales for the PC industry, and shipments are down almost 30 percent compared to 2011, the apparent peak of the PC era.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12578/global-pc-shipments/

Yes. We need to stop thinking like nerds and think like strategists.

What is the company behind Linux? It is literally the world. From top hackers like Linus, whose salary is worth their weight in gold, to script kiddies doing it just for fun. Microsoft can't beat that. The world >> Microsoft.

Is Linux ready for the desktop? Of course. Has always been. Linus wrote Linux as his desktop and that's what he's been using ever since. Others, including me, jumped on the bandwagon long ago and never looked back.

But Microsoft dominates the desktop market and is sitting on top of more than 100 Billion $ cash. Such a costly war serves no purpose. Besides, the desktop marketing is shrinking.

The only way to make significant inroads in this market is to come up with some disruptive solution that Microsoft can't control.

So it's already clear why Linux has only 2% on the desktop when it is proved that Linux is perfectly capable to replace Windows.

Now we need to figure out what Microsoft is up to with their approach to Linux. Embrace, Extend and Extinguish is a possibility. It has been their default strategy with profound damage to users. Their intention with Windows NT was to extinguish Unix. But Linux ended up as the most successful Unix heir.

[bd139]

Nope. It's actually mostly Redhat behind Linux. They own most of the core developers and ancillary developers now and have been buying out people for years. They are the first "billion dollar open source company". Also everyone handjobs everyone else in the corporate IT sector: https://www.redhat.com/en/partners/microsoft and of course https://www.linuxfoundation.org/membership/members/ ... even Tencent the nearest thing to Tyrell Corporation or Weyland-Yutani is in there...

Remember that open source "free of corporate interests" thing? LMAO. Nope. Everyone is just where they are wanted and everything is decided behind closed doors. You're not going to change a thing. Everything on github or open source these days is people trying to get IPO to buy a Lambo. I know I would if I could be arsed.

Give me a crate of TTL ICs and some FORTH books and I'll crawl off into the wilderness where all the ideologies haven't been bought up.

[nctnico]

Linux being well supported by the engineering world isn't a reality. Some applications are but many of the major applications aren't. If you can't run Solidworks on a natively supported OS few will bother. That will remain an issue even if some versions of Linux were to be supported as companies spend eye-watering amounts of money on certified hardware and drivers with the best support available to ensure as little downtime as possible. Those companies aren't going to run OSs without explicit software and driver support.

I guess you have never heard of Redhat. They do just that.

[Mr. Scram]

Phones have much shorter life cycles and are actively developed for in their short life cycle. When the manufacturer drops support security holes remain and custom ROMs become a lot less likely and people tend to simply upgrade out of that situation. It's actually remarkably similar to the desktop situation except that it's a different market. I don't know why a surprising amount of people are so adamant the disappointing market adoption of Linux on desktop is some evil plot instead of looking at the product. The professional world obviously has different expectations of a product and in phones the manufacturers blunt the sharp edges for the consumer. When consumers are responsible themselves it's a whole different story. Until the adepts of Linux snap out of their dream and both acknowledge and address this issue the year of Linux will never come and it'll all remain idealist and fundamentalist blabber with the real world giving them wide berth. The fragmentation of Linux is both a blessing and a curse but is definitely a hurdle when it comes to desktop adoption. As long as people keep bickering and forking over details instead of getting real and taking a long hard look at the actual product nothing will ever change.

[bd139]

Yep. Problem with the desktop is it's shitty, difficult to program for, clunky and unreliable. And not only that the guardian of the realm is comic book guy from the simpsons on the average day.