Hell freezes over...

[EEVblog]

Guys, guys, off topic but can we please stick to the topic in question and left the politics aside?
It exist a topic here that is already heavy politics about the trade war, so can we keep the rest of the forum without ideologies?
Thank you.

He started it! 

Quit it bsfeechannel I just had to edit your post to remove content you know damn well is not tolerated here. Do not post this stuff again. IIRC this is not the first time you've been warned about such material.

[Black Phoenix]

Linux will be a great alternative in the future when apps currently supported on Windows release stable versions for Linux, then yes you will have a big influx of new users.

The problem is that apps like Office, Photoshop, Lightroom, Premiere, Catia, Autocad and others are not available because there aren't a big expression of users in the Linux ecosystem so software houses don't produce said apps, the users don't migrate because such apps don't exist, then the aren't a big expression of users in the Linux ecosystem... See were I go here.

I've been as stated in another post using dual boot Windows 10 / Fedora 30. It's true that currently I can say that almost a month before I can count by my right hand's fingers the times that I booted on Windows.

That times was basically only to play games. Yes steam is already supported on Linux, although not all games I own have a linux version. And no, I don't want to use Wine. I simply boot the Windows.

As I stated I will migrate progressively more and more to Linux but I still have lot's of ropes that tie me to the Windows Ecosystem. And mainly I miss Windows XP or Server 2003 (I was a MCSE for both). Simple, functional, no frills and powerful.

Had Microsoft release this OS now in Open Source GNU licence nowadays, and watching from what happened with Linux Distros and what users were able to accomplish, the sky would be the limit!

But that's the can of worms that I'm going to open, and that will for sure backfire...

[bsfeechannel]

Why should it be regulated if it didn't get the privileges true natural monopoly companies received?
No government said thou shalt use Windows, right?

Natural monopolies are regulated because they can use their privileged position to commit abuses.

Enlighten me. I see SxS just an elaborated method of implementing the DLL hell, just more sophisticated than libxxx.so.n method.

Even if SxS be perceived as elaborated, this doesn't change the fact that Linux runs faster and demand less expensive hardware to do what Windows do.

Do you understand, now?

Word processing, spreadsheet, presentation, gaming and coding are certainly not niche. Let alone many proprietary tools only available for Windows.

I would say you just found your niche for Linux.

As I said. I do all of that with Linux. It works, runs fast, saves me time. I see no use for Windows and all the hassle that goes with it.

[bsfeechannel]

Quit it bsfeechannel I just had to edit your post to remove content you know damn well is not tolerated here. Do not post this stuff again.

Sorry. I got carried away by the heat of the discussion. Thank you for the warning.

IIRC this is not the first time you've been warned about such material.

I've never posted such material before.

[bsfeechannel]

I just don't think how Linux can beat Windows on desktop market in any reliably foreseeable future.

You said the word: market. Linux had to have a company, like Google or the sorts, to push the OS on the desktop.

The thing is that the barrier to entry the desktop market, i.e., the costs and obstacles that prevent new competitors from easily entering this business, is high.

Discussing why Linux is not the king of the desktop on technical terms is useless. Even if we had the fastest, most stable, most functional desktop OS today, we couldn't beat the clunky Windows, without pouring tons of money in the enterprise.

[Simon]

I just don't think how Linux can beat Windows on desktop market in any reliably foreseeable future.

You said the word: market. Linux had to have a company, like Google or the sorts, to push the OS on the desktop.

The thing is that the barrier to entry the desktop market, i.e., the costs and obstacles that prevent new competitors from easily entering this business, is high.

Discussing why Linux is not the king of the desktop on technical terms is useless. Even if we had the fastest, most stable, most functional desktop OS today, we couldn't beat the clunky Windows, without pouring tons of money in the enterprise.

Not really, the world just needs to settle on one version so that all software makers know what to write their software for.

[bsfeechannel]

Not really, the world just needs to settle on one version so that all software makers know what to write their software for.

Even if the Linux and OSS community decided to settle on one version, you can't beat Windows on the desktop market.

Is Linux viable on the desktop? A huge yes. I am the living proof of that. 20 years using Linux for absolutely everything.

Can Linux beat Windows on the desktop market? A huge no.

[Simon]

who said anything about beating? A viable option would be a start. You either are at android level and want something to do one thing only or you are determined to use Linux.

[bsfeechannel]

Android tablets run Linux and they have tons of applications (including Microsoft apps like Office and Skype). Try to think why we are not running Android on the desktop.

[Simon]

I don't know what androids capability are.

[nctnico]

Linux just can't get to that point. The UI subsystem is just too bloated to compete the efficiency of Windows, and OGL is just not comparable with DX.

I'm getting the feeling you never used Linux at all. Linux is definetely faster than Windows including the GUI. Try changing from one window to another on Windows and Linux. Windows is laggy especially when run from a hard-drive. Linux is instant no matter the system load. Also try to compile software on Windows. It is 5 to 10 times slower. If you are a power user which needs to be productive then Linux definitely is the better choice.

[nctnico]

I just don't think how Linux can beat Windows on desktop market in any reliably foreseeable future.

You said the word: market. Linux had to have a company, like Google or the sorts, to push the OS on the desktop.

The thing is that the barrier to entry the desktop market, i.e., the costs and obstacles that prevent new competitors from easily entering this business, is high.

The point is rather moot because the desktop PC market is shrinking anyway. What use is there to invest in a market which is shrinking? I don't think Microsoft is making any money from Windows directly; it only accounts for a few percent of the total revenue.

[Simon]

How is the desktop marcket shrinking? I now own 1 PC and two laptops. That is 3 licenses of the same OS, 3 years ago i had 2 machines and 5 years ago I had 1. I still have only 1 mobile phone. And of course i could not work for my employer without a PC and now i have a work laptop so I am the user of 5 machines in total.

[techman-001]

I just don't think how Linux can beat Windows on desktop market in any reliably foreseeable future.

You said the word: market. Linux had to have a company, like Google or the sorts, to push the OS on the desktop.

The thing is that the barrier to entry the desktop market, i.e., the costs and obstacles that prevent new competitors from easily entering this business, is high.

Discussing why Linux is not the king of the desktop on technical terms is useless. Even if we had the fastest, most stable, most functional desktop OS today, we couldn't beat the clunky Windows, without pouring tons of money in the enterprise.

Not really, the world just needs to settle on one version so that all software makers know what to write their software for.

Yes ... really.

You're being very simplistic Simon. There is no "world" Linux governing body, there is no Linux company. Linux is just a *kernel* and all the Linux distros use that same kernel.

The Linux Desktop is just one of many Linux applications and it's just not important to the companies already making $billions of dollars every year from Linux.

There is a relatively new player in the Linux Desktop area. It comes with a consistent GUI and is very popular in education and with people at home. It can run standard Debian GUI applications on this same consistent GUI.

It's called Google ChromeOS and is on every Chromebook.

[Simon]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

Chrome OS? so this is available for me to install on my desktop and people are writing software for it? NO! it's just another distro aimed at a specific market. As it is being sold on machines it may be prevelant but only if all you want to do is browse the web with chrome and use Gmail?

[techman-001]

How is the desktop marcket shrinking? I now own 1 PC and two laptops. That is 3 licenses of the same OS, 3 years ago i had 2 machines and 5 years ago I had 1. I still have only 1 mobile phone. And of course i could not work for my employer without a PC and now i have a work laptop so I am the user of 5 machines in total.

It's not about YOU Simon

PC Market Shrinks For the Seventh Consecutive Year
by Felix Richter, Jul 12, 2018

Global PC shipments dropped to their lowest level since 2006 last year. According to estimates from market research firm Gartner, PC vendors shipped a total of 259 million computers in 2018, down from 263 million the year before. 2018 marked the seventh consecutive year of declining sales for the PC industry, and shipments are down almost 30 percent compared to 2011, the apparent peak of the PC era.

https://www.statista.com/chart/12578/global-pc-shipments/

[Simon]

OK, so why is that? are we infering that people are no longer using PC's? Has anyone heard of these things called laptops that run the exact same OS's? What are you driving at? Also the speed of innovation has dropped. When i bought my first PC I upped the specs of the RAM before it was even delivered. Things changed so fast and every few months I carried out an upgrade. My current PC has the same amount of RAM as my old PC that was 3 years old and i only replaced it because it broke and simply replicated it's spec with newer hardware. We don't need PC's to be constantly upgraded and changed every year anymore.... So you bet the market has shrunk. I damn well hope it has. But I am sure that there is an expanding userbase that are pissed off with M$ and would welcome another OS. I am one of them. Despite paying £100 to upgrade my M$ licence from home to pro I would ditch it in a heartbeat for a version of something else that works and does not tell me what programs i can and can't have!

[taydin]

Here are a few reasons why it would be VERY HARD for Microsoft to make the Linux kernel proprietary ...

1) You need to get ALL copyright holders to the kernel source to sign over their copyright. There are thousands! You need to track all of them down, offer them some money and get them to sign the copyright assignment. Even if you can find all of them, this would take years. Also, some copyright holders will be companies, and knowing the buyer is MS, they would want good money. So MS wouldn't be able to buy out all copyrighted material and would have to remove stuff that it wasn't able to buy.

2) Let's say MS managed to get copyright assignments. That would only mean that all NEW software development done on the Linux kernel will now be (c) Microsoft and not free. But all software that was there before the copyright assignment is still GNU GPLv2. So in this scenario, the Linux kernel would be forked, and we would have free Linux and MS Linux. Free Linux would continue to thrive, whereas MS Linux would stagnate at some point. Think about the OpenOffice/LibreOffice scenario.

So, MS probably isn't considering this move in order to buy out and kill Linux. The have probably realized that Linux is technically superior to their own kernel and want to capitalize on it  Even if they use Linux as the kernel, they will still have tons of software that is proprietary, so it wouldn't really hurt their bottom line. But their kernel would probably not move at a pace that free Linux would move. They would keep it at some version/configuration and only change if absolutely necessary.

[Simon]

they are probably just going to copy apple that ditched their OS and switched to their own version of Linux on a x86 hardware.

[techman-001]

Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance. i am aware that there is no worldwide body or company. that is what I am saying and that is the problem. Who wants to write commercial software on it.

Chrome OS? so this is available for me to install on my desktop and people are writing software for it? NO! it's just another distro aimed at a specific market. As it is being sold on machines it may be prevelant but only if all you want to do is browse the web with chrome and use Gmail?

"Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance."
   No. The predatory nature of Microsoft did that.

"Chrome OS? so this is available for me to install on my desktop and people are writing software for it? NO! it's just another distro aimed at a specific market."
  Wrong again: https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os 

 Plenty of apps : https://chrome.google.com/webstore/category/extensions

 Google Chrome is available on literally dozens of different notebook and laptop sized devices by many manufacturers ranging from a few hundred dollars to $1500+
They all have integrated Google Cloud storage, track pads, touch screens and great battery life.

And best off all Simon, they are available off the shelf with everything preinstalled, just like Windows.

[taydin]

they are probably just going to copy apple that ditched their OS and switched to their own version of Linux on a x86 hardware.

The Apple kernel is based on BSD kernel, which has a license that allows you to just take the code, and make it proprietary. With Linux you can't do this, you have to keep the source code available, including all modifications you made.

[Simon]

So i can run Kicad on chromium?

[Simon]

"Yes, the free an open nature of it is what has prevented world dominance."
   No. The predatory nature of Microsoft did that.

Really? So it's microsofts fault that software companies WILL support MAC but will NOT touch linux? what did MAC which is an equally minor player do to get special treatment?

[Simon]

From chromium.org:

So what can i actually do with it? oh yea, only what google lets me!!!

[Simon]

Also:

Where can I download Chromium OS?
If you are the kind of developer who likes to build an open source operating system from scratch, you can follow the developer instructions to check out Chromium OS, build it and experiment with it. A number of sites have also posted pre-built binaries of Chromium OS. However, these downloads are not verified by Google, therefore please ensure you trust the site you are downloading these from.
Keep in mind that Chromium OS is not for general consumer use.

Not so ubiquotus after all and I doubt google care about anyone elses applications but their own.