Author Topic: How is this INSANITY safe?!  (Read 4312 times)

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Offline eti

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How is this INSANITY safe?!
« on: October 22, 2021, 09:01:39 pm »
 

Offline Benta

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2021, 09:56:58 pm »
What's your problem? And why is it INSANITY?

 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2021, 10:10:53 pm »
I also think it is stupid to increase the voltage to 48V which can cause arcing by disconnecting, warn that new special cables are needed to comply but then keep the same connector.
Thus any old not compliant existing cable will work but is unsafe. Stupid!
Create a new hot plug safe connector and system.
 

Offline eti

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2021, 10:17:43 pm »
I also think it is stupid to increase the voltage to 48V which can cause arcing by disconnecting, warn that new special cables are needed to comply but then keep the same connector.
Thus any old not compliant existing cable will work but is unsafe. Stupid!
Create a new hot plug safe connector and system.

The entirety of USB-C is a mess, not to mention something I've said a few times, that the connector design and quality is a joke. Folded tin (or w/e it is) as opposed to looking at the SOLID mechanical, LATCHING design of the Apple "lightning" port (for the pedants, in this sentence I am ONLY referring to the SOLID steel plug, the detents in the sides of which afford a secure, unabiguous "CLICK!" when it latches into the socket, where there are matching, sprung, domed(?) fingers which sit snugly in aforementioned detents, thus affording a secure retention method - not to mention the SOLID housing, and the tight, but not too tight tolerances between the plug and the equally well designed, SOLID socket housing.

USB-C is horrible, and I've not even covered the electrical aspects in this post.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2021, 10:23:38 pm »
It's 48V, not hundreds of volts. PoE uses 48V, ok not delivering hundreds of watts but the power is still significant, and that isn't burning down buildings left and right.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2021, 10:26:12 pm »
It's 48V, not hundreds of volts. PoE uses 48V, ok not delivering hundreds of watts but the power is still significant, and that isn't burning down buildings left and right.

Yep, hundreds of watts, and this hasn't been released yet - I don't see it going well ("you cannot change the laws of physics, Cap'n", as Scotty said)
 

Online thm_w

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2021, 10:31:04 pm »
It's 48V, not hundreds of volts. PoE uses 48V, ok not delivering hundreds of watts but the power is still significant, and that isn't burning down buildings left and right.

Hi-POE does 100W at 52V apparently, and it goes over much longer distances: https://www.perle.com/supportfiles/poe_background_technical_note.shtml
 

Offline eti

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2021, 10:33:23 pm »
It's 48V, not hundreds of volts. PoE uses 48V, ok not delivering hundreds of watts but the power is still significant, and that isn't burning down buildings left and right.

Hi-POE does 100W at 52V apparently, and it goes over much longer distances: https://www.perle.com/supportfiles/poe_background_technical_note.shtml

One would think that PoE, being an industrial standard, would have been designed to a higher level of quality than this consumer junk - I am unsure - any idea?
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2021, 10:45:07 pm »
I also think it is stupid to increase the voltage to 48V which can cause arcing by disconnecting, warn that new special cables are needed to comply but then keep the same connector.
Thus any old not compliant existing cable will work but is unsafe. Stupid!
Create a new hot plug safe connector and system.

USB-C cables have electronic tags that identify their capabilities unless it is a base USB 2.0 only cable limited to 3A charging.  I expect they will continue that here requiring the cable to specifically indicate that it is 48V tolerant.  It leads to confusion but not safety problems.  Non compliant devices might advertise more than they can handle but that would be true regardless.

Most 20V systems arc as well on connection and disconnection.  I haven't seen that with USB C.  Perhaps the active shut off is fast enough to prevent a visible arc?  I'm not sure what the standard says about this.

Also, while PoE doesn't deliver 240 watt in a single cable it can supply far beyond that in a bundle of cables that are run for long distances and through raceways and conduit.  USB cables are short and not run in large bundles.

USB C has problems but the hand wringing here is pretty silly.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2021, 10:50:13 pm »
Sleep-walking into mass acceptance of a style of delivery system which has been proven MANY TIMES to be flawed, confusing and dangerous, is not "hand wringing"

As you wish. Follow the lemmings ---->
 

Online ataradov

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2021, 10:51:13 pm »
One would think that PoE, being an industrial standard, would have been designed to a higher level of quality than this consumer junk - I am unsure - any idea?
What makes you think so? And what is "an industrial standard"? And why do you think it is "junk"?

You seem to not like thing just for the sake of not liking things without any actual evidence.
Alex
 

Online ataradov

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2021, 10:51:50 pm »
has been proven MANY TIMES to be flawed
Links to the proofs?
Alex
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2021, 10:52:54 pm »
I was not aware of PoE being "industrial". The first time I ever saw it was in a plain old ordinary office, it was used to power the desk phones we had there. Now I use PoE right at home in my house to power my security IP cameras, they are consumer electronics.

I'm not a fan of USB-C for a number of reasons, but I see no evidence of it being unsafe.
 

Offline Benta

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2021, 10:53:43 pm »
The USB-C is actually well thought out IMO.
The higher power is only available after negotiation (as with all USB interfaces), and heck, 5 A is 5 A, this has been working for several years.
The only new thing is the higher negotiable voltage, and the "horror story" about sparks flying all over the place because it's 48 V instead of 20 V just doesn't hold water. The plug has different length pins to avoid even the possibility of that.
Somehow that Linus whatever guy wasn't first in line when the Good Lord distributed brains.

If you want bedside reading: here you go:
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf

Now take a deep breath and carry on.

 
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Offline ejeffrey

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2021, 11:02:08 pm »
To answer my own question after 2 min of searching : https://www.anandtech.com/show/16712/usbc-power-delivery-hits-240w-with-extended-power-range

Yes, cables supporting "extended power range (EPR)" will identify themselves via the electronic tag and also have additional mechanical requirements to prevent arcing and short circuits as well as shorter CC pins so that the power supply can shut down power during disconnect before the VBUS disconnects.

I doubt it is perfect, and there will likely be problem with cheap non-compliant devices on the market, but I can't see how this is fundamentally flawed, especially given that the 100W version has been working fine for years with these same "problems."  Going from 20 to 48 V just doesn't provide significant additional hazard and the current isn't increasing (still 5A max).  Arcing is a potential problem, but it's not really a safety issue.  It's more about the hardware destroying itself.
 
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Offline Benta

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2021, 11:04:30 pm »
Sleep-walking into mass acceptance of a style of delivery system which has been proven MANY TIMES to be flawed, confusing and dangerous, is not "hand wringing"

As you wish. Follow the lemmings ---->

I've used USB for years and years and never found it to be "flawed". In fact, it's been the only HW interface that I could use without even turning on my brain. Always.
Automatic recognition, driver install if needed, etc., etc., etc. no matter which kind of device.
Ethernet and WLAN was much more effort.

But perhaps you have an own UKSB standard in mind which will rule the world in the future?

 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2021, 07:40:14 am »
Yes, cables supporting "extended power range (EPR)" will identify themselves via the electronic tag and also have additional mechanical requirements to prevent arcing and short circuits as well as shorter CC pins so that the power supply can shut down power during disconnect before the VBUS disconnects.
Then I withdraw my earlier comment. As long as they have this kind of authentication of the cable before going full power.

In the case of PoE my previous company had some issues with long 40-60m cables when after the installation in the building it came out that the installer had used Clad type of utp cable instead of the prescribed full Cu cable. Also the AWG (wire diameter) should be taken into consideration for higher power devices on longer runs of cable.

The installer initially saved $7000 on the cable but went $50000 in the minus when he had to replace all the cables with the correct ones, mainly on manhours for the double work.
 
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2021, 11:19:57 am »
I also think it is stupid to increase the voltage to 48V which can cause arcing by disconnecting, warn that new special cables are needed to comply but then keep the same connector.
Thus any old not compliant existing cable will work but is unsafe. Stupid!
Create a new hot plug safe connector and system.

The entirety of USB-C is a mess, not to mention something I've said a few times, that the connector design and quality is a joke. Folded tin (or w/e it is) as opposed to looking at the SOLID mechanical, LATCHING design of the Apple "lightning" port (for the pedants, in this sentence I am ONLY referring to the SOLID steel plug, the detents in the sides of which afford a secure, unabiguous "CLICK!" when it latches into the socket, where there are matching, sprung, domed(?) fingers which sit snugly in aforementioned detents, thus affording a secure retention method - not to mention the SOLID housing, and the tight, but not too tight tolerances between the plug and the equally well designed, SOLID socket housing.

USB-C is horrible, and I've not even covered the electrical aspects in this post.

I've actually had more Apple lightning cables physically fail (snap) than USB-C. I'm not a fan of the Dell USB-C docks, but even they seem to hold up to normal consumer use. Even through normal use, I'm finding myself having to replace Apple lighting cables far more often.

 

Online BradC

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2021, 12:38:30 pm »
I've actually had more Apple lightning cables physically fail (snap) than USB-C.

What are you doing to them? I've had destructive toddlers abuse iDevices and lighting cables for years and never broken one, and they've tried hard!

My wife has bent the USB-C connector on her Macbook charging cable but it still works at this point.
 

Offline MadScientist

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2021, 12:42:54 pm »
I would agree , lightening is a terribly fragile cable arrangement . We end up buying 4-6 a year both Apple and unbranded. Both fail typically the fingers deteriorate , the cable fraud at the Apple end , the plug pulls out of the plastic casing

At least usb is cheap
« Last Edit: October 23, 2021, 12:44:36 pm by MadScientist »
EE's: We use silicon to make things  smaller!
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2021, 06:30:22 pm »
The only time I've ever encountered a bad lightning cable was one my dad had on his boat and the contacts corroded. Marine air is very hard on anything metal though so I'm not sure I can really fault a cable not specifically designed for it for failing.

The USB-C charging cable on my Macbook doesn't stay in very well anymore, just the weight of the cable draped off the edge of the table or sofa is enough to work it loose. I get about a year out of a cable before it starts to get flaky, I've broken a couple of them from the stupidly slick and shiny bottom of the laptop sliding off the back of the sofa where I set it to get up.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2021, 12:36:06 am »
I've actually had more Apple lightning cables physically fail (snap) than USB-C.

What are you doing to them? I've had destructive toddlers abuse iDevices and lighting cables for years and never broken one, and they've tried hard!

My wife has bent the USB-C connector on her Macbook charging cable but it still works at this point.

Nothing too out of the ordinary. With Apple cables, usually the first thing to go is the actual strain relief or the outer plastic starts to split, but it's easy to accidentally bend the actual lightning connector from the main plug housing. They are relatively brittle so even a small bend and the connector will easily break clean off.

I've also had quite a few dead data ports in iDevices themselves, I don't know the cause. Sometimes they just fill up with lint and crud from normal use, but other times even after a good clean, the data pins just stop working.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2021, 06:24:02 pm »
I've actually had more Apple lightning cables physically fail (snap) than USB-C.

What are you doing to them? I've had destructive toddlers abuse iDevices and lighting cables for years and never broken one, and they've tried hard!

My wife has bent the USB-C connector on her Macbook charging cable but it still works at this point.

Nothing too out of the ordinary. With Apple cables, usually the first thing to go is the actual strain relief or the outer plastic starts to split, but it's easy to accidentally bend the actual lightning connector from the main plug housing. They are relatively brittle so even a small bend and the connector will easily break clean off.

Everyone had problems with strain relief failures on Lightning cables early on (I have a bunch with heat shrink around the end), but honestly, in the last several years that problem seems to have been fixed. I haven't had a bad Apple-branded Lightning cable in quite a while -- and this is with a kid who yanks the cable out of his iPad. All three of our cars have Lightning cables attached to the charge/data ports and they get plugged and unplugged multiple times a day (well, one car sits mostly). (Off-brand cables, except for the Ikea cables which are great, have been long since cycled out of use and binned.) I think that cable failure as described is a solved problem and you're just repeating ancient anecdotes that no longer apply.

Quote
I've also had quite a few dead data ports in iDevices themselves, I don't know the cause. Sometimes they just fill up with lint and crud from normal use, but other times even after a good clean, the data pins just stop working.

Cleaning the lint out ports is fairly common. A good thin dental pick helps!

(Anecdote alert) I've never had the connectors themselves fail; every charging problem got traced to worn-out cable. As others have noted, the gold fingers (insert wah-wah trumpet sound!) on the device end of the connectors can get scraped off. Again, though, this is still common with cheap knock-off cables, not with the Apple cables.

Also in anecdote land: my friends with Android phones are always complaining that the micro-USB ports on the phones fail easily. And they do, because it's a shitty connector.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2021, 06:42:20 pm »
One would think that PoE, being an industrial standard, would have been designed to a higher level of quality than this consumer junk - I am unsure - any idea?

It is fallacy to think that industrial means "better". Often it's opposite because industrial devices are tailored for professionals while consumer stuff - for anybody (to say it politely).
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: How is this INSANITY safe?!
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2021, 03:10:29 am »
I think that cable failure as described is a solved problem and you're just repeating ancient anecdotes that no longer apply.
I'd make the counter-argument that your thoughts and opinion are just as valid as mine. To then state that my opinion no longer applies either suggests you believe your opinion is somehow more valid than mine, or you believe that my recent real-world experiences are somehow fabricated or exaggerated. Which is it?

Quote
(Anecdote alert) I've never had the connectors themselves fail; every charging problem got traced to worn-out cable. As others have noted, the gold fingers (insert wah-wah trumpet sound!) on the device end of the connectors can get scraped off. Again, though, this is still common with cheap knock-off cables, not with the Apple cables.

Also in anecdote land: my friends with Android phones are always complaining that the micro-USB ports on the phones fail easily. And they do, because it's a shitty connector.

Yep, but anecdotal evidence is still very valid. I personally "deal with" on average 2 iDevices per week and dead ports (where they need to be replaced before I can work on them) aren't common, but aren't unheard of either. I probably replace maybe 5 ports per year?

As for Micro USB yes, they sucked! But quit living in the past, most manufacturers like Samsung haven't used Micro USB on their devices since 2018. Hardly a relevant problem these days since most phones are using USB-C which is a much more robust connector. Of course some budget phones still use Micro USB, but when the overall cost and quality of the handset is not important. what do you expect?

To use your own argument back at you: that failure is "a solved problem and you're just repeating ancient anecdotes that no longer apply".

On the subject of anecdotal evidence, recency is very important.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 03:12:55 am by Halcyon »
 


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