Installing linux

[brucehoult]

I know some of you will cringe, but I wonder if Simon should consider a machine with Linux pre-installed from a company such as https://system76.com/

Yeah, I know the laptop hardware isn't like a ThinkPad but the hardware -is- Linux compatible with email support.

Why should we cringe ?

I cringe when I walk into a big retail store lined with Windows machines, and NOT ONE SINGLE LINUX machine.

That's cringe worthy. Retail stores should be full of all kinds of choices of PC's, including preinstalled Linux just the same as preinstalled Windows. A linux PC would work from the boot up when it was taken home, just like Windows. Of course the Linux PC software would be free, unlike Windows, and $100 cheaper.

What you've missed here is that desktop and laptop computers are now a tiny, almost irrelevant, part of the total computer market, both by value and by volume. All the action is now in mobile, and in that market Linux has an 80% market share -- and almost all the other 20% is actual official Unix.

[techman-001]

I know some of you will cringe, but I wonder if Simon should consider a machine with Linux pre-installed from a company such as https://system76.com/

Yeah, I know the laptop hardware isn't like a ThinkPad but the hardware -is- Linux compatible with email support.

Why should we cringe ?

I cringe when I walk into a big retail store lined with Windows machines, and NOT ONE SINGLE LINUX machine.

That's cringe worthy. Retail stores should be full of all kinds of choices of PC's, including preinstalled Linux just the same as preinstalled Windows. A linux PC would work from the boot up when it was taken home, just like Windows. Of course the Linux PC software would be free, unlike Windows, and $100 cheaper.

What you've missed here is that desktop and laptop computers are now a tiny, almost irrelevant, part of the total computer market, both by value and by volume. All the action is now in mobile, and in that market Linux has an 80% market share -- and almost all the other 20% is actual official Unix.

That's certainly true, I just didn't mention it because I didn't see it as relevant in my post.

The fact that Linux is *everywhere* except on PC desktops in retail stores doesn't change the fact that someone like Simon will find it much harder to buy Linux preinstalled due to the continuing illegal Microsoft retail PC monopoly.

[Mechatrommer]

linux market is nothing compared to food industries. why compare orange to apple? why compare something for real work with entertainment and human connectivity? if Adobe, Autodesk, Altium, NVIDIA, major game brands, peripherals etc are Winglows fanboys, i'd rather with them. because they produce things for real work. besides, my phone is always Linux because thats what its best at, forget Windows for connectivity and forget Linux for real work. in anyway, foods are inevitable. but wait... Winglows can connect, cant it?

[Ed.Kloonk]

I know some of you will cringe, but I wonder if Simon should consider a machine with Linux pre-installed from a company such as https://system76.com/

Yeah, I know the laptop hardware isn't like a ThinkPad but the hardware -is- Linux compatible with email support.

Why should we cringe ?

I cringe when I walk into a big retail store lined with Windows machines, and NOT ONE SINGLE LINUX machine.

That's cringe worthy. Retail stores should be full of all kinds of choices of PC's, including preinstalled Linux just the same as preinstalled Windows. A linux PC would work from the boot up when it was taken home, just like Windows. Of course the Linux PC software would be free, unlike Windows, and $100 cheaper.

What you've missed here is that desktop and laptop computers are now a tiny, almost irrelevant, part of the total computer market, both by value and by volume. All the action is now in mobile, and in that market Linux has an 80% market share -- and almost all the other 20% is actual official Unix.

That's certainly true, I just didn't mention it because I didn't see it as relevant in my post.

The fact that Linux is *everywhere* except on PC desktops in retail stores doesn't change the fact that someone like Simon will find it much harder to buy Linux preinstalled due to the continuing illegal Microsoft retail PC monopoly.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the MS dominance in retail. But I don't want Linux on sale in computers sold in a store also selling living room furniture.

The point is that the components chosen in these products are cheap. Certain restrictive choices are made in terms of variety and quality. The exception, I think, would be a iMac because it is a standardised commodity available anywhere.

Peeps gravitate to Linux because they want something better than MS. So it follows that the quality of computers made for Windows lag like the software itself.

Also, the online sellers who supply parts or whole computers with Linux expected to be run on them are now far and wide since the time of the Halloween docs.

The fact that retail still flogs that dead horse is exactly the reason why retail is dead and going away.

[nctnico]

One more thing, the Linux machine on the same hardware as a Windows one must be at least $100 cheaper ... no Microsoft tax!

Dell sells  PCs with Linux installed. Windows is optional.

[Ed.Kloonk]

One more thing, the Linux machine on the same hardware as a Windows one must be at least $100 cheaper ... no Microsoft tax!

Dell sells  PCs with Linux installed. Windows is optional.

Not here, they don't. Hence the System76 suggestion. I needed a powerful, fully setup travel laptop in a hurry. Dell dropped the ball.

 

[techman-001]

The fact that retail still flogs that dead horse is exactly the reason why retail is dead and going away.

Oh I agree with you and brucehault, the retail pc market is dead and dying and has been dying for at least a decade. Microsoft fought tooth and nail to win a dying market, a veritable no mans land.

Connectivity is what people want more than anything (in general) but PC parts will be around for a long time yet for gamers, engineers, scientists etc, all the people who can easily build their own Linux box.

It's dead easy anyway, Linux Lego.

As an aside, Linux laptops are available from Google, who call them 'a Chromebook'. Everything works out of the box, it's all preinstalled and they have high end models as well.

Of course one must accept all the Google spyware that forms the heart of the machine, which also can run a Debian based distro in a container simply by enabling developer mode.

A friend bought one recently and installed Kicad on it easily. Apt-get install kicad.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Oh I agree with you and brucehault, the retail pc market is dead and dying and has been dying for at least a decade. Microsoft fought tooth and nail to win a dying market, a veritable no mans land.

 

 

[techman-001]

One more thing, the Linux machine on the same hardware as a Windows one must be at least $100 cheaper ... no Microsoft tax!

Dell sells  PCs with Linux installed. Windows is optional.

Not here, they don't. Hence the System76 suggestion. I needed a powerful, fully setup travel laptop in a hurry. Dell dropped the ball.

 

Which is a shame as Dell make good hardware generally.

Their Linux offerings were no cheaper than Windows from what I could see on the American sites, and Dell Australia never offered Linux here that I saw.

[Ed.Kloonk]

One more thing, the Linux machine on the same hardware as a Windows one must be at least $100 cheaper ... no Microsoft tax!

Dell sells  PCs with Linux installed. Windows is optional.

Not here, they don't. Hence the System76 suggestion. I needed a powerful, fully setup travel laptop in a hurry. Dell dropped the ball.

 

Which is a shame as Dell make good hardware generally.

Their Linux offerings were no cheaper than Windows from what I could see on the American sites, and Dell Australia never offered Linux here that I saw.

I waited for months while tech journos and bloggers talked up the upcoming XPS-13? Saw a few reviews when it finally came out. Rang up Dell to pull the trigger....

[Mechatrommer]

Windows will not die anytime soon (within the context) i bet my bottom dollar. if its so, it will bring many other brand names die with it. those brand names are not fool, if they see this coming, they should already jump boat by now. do you see any Altium for Linux now? or slightly any other well known brands? in journey of trying to support Linux? imho AMD is wise to expand their OSSW driver to Linux, but if there is competition/market, we will see NVIDIA will jump along, and then the next, and next and next... we'll see..

[techman-001]

Windows will not die anytime soon (within the context) i bet my bottom dollar. if its so, it will bring many other brand names die with it. those brand names are not fool, if they see this coming, they should already jump boat by now. do you see any Altium for Linux now? or slightly any other well known brands? in journey of trying to support Linux? imho AMD is wise to expand their OSSW driver to Linux, but if there is competition/market, we will see NVIDIA will jump along, and then the next, and next and next... we'll see..

I'm not predicting the death of Windows anytime soon, however the PC market has been shrinking for years, I posted stats backing this up a while back, and everyone knows it anyway, especially the PC manufacturers.

Regarding Altium, what do we know about the ability of any Windows application manufacturer to also make a version for a competing OS such as Linux ?

Do we know anything or are the deals they make with Microsoft under NDA and highly secret ?

Can they port to Linux, what are the consequences ?

Might they lose their "Approved for Windows" certification if they do ?

Whats the financial downside for them ?

[Mechatrommer]

PC market maybe shrinking due to less attractive offering from CPU manufacturers (the collapse of Moore's Law?) but it does not prohibit users from upgrading SW/OS on their old PC. i can quick google revenue from few brand (Windows) names and they are quite happy with the figure.. otoh the trend and culture maybe changing as well, a family maybe own a PC in a house and 10s Androids, or a person maybe has 10s Androids and no PC at all, because he works in a lumberjack and the only thing that made him happy during his rest time is playing games on his many phones, before Android its all stick and stone games. maybe i guess market shrinking is in proportional to human intelligence, nerdy people on the verge of extinction. ymmv.

[nctnico]

Windows will not die anytime soon (within the context) i bet my bottom dollar. if its so, it will bring many other brand names die with it. those brand names are not fool, if they see this coming, they should already jump boat by now. do you see any Altium for Linux now?

Altium is working on a Linux version. Orcad's PCB design software already works on Linux and from the changes in the schematics tool I'm quite sure they are working on porting the schematics tool as well. Linux is very big in engineering.

[Mechatrommer]

Linux is very big in engineering.

i dont know, but maybe you are talking about IT or software/game engineering?
https://www.quora.com/How-useful-is-it-to-learn-Linux-being-a-mechanical-engineer
https://www.quora.com/How-useful-is-Linux-for-electrical-engineers
https://www.infoworld.com/article/2832315/why-are-linux-professionals-in-such-high-demand.html

[Simon]

I agree. This feels like yet another 'Simon can't get Linux to work on his computer' thread.

Really? kindly point out the other threads? I have not as you claim started a number of threads claiming linux does not work.

Go through the other 'Linux versus Windows' threads and you'll see you have posted similar messages before which then resulted in similar lines of conversation: Tried to install Linux but failed and then start raving on about how well Windows works for you. Almost like just stirring sh*t up.

And I started those threads? no, so who is stirring?. I have been told so many good things about how well linux works I decided to try it. But it seems I need the right graphics card.

[Simon]

I'll try Mint. I don't have masses of time to play with this and it will be a work in progress. For now I have windows. My idea was to dual boot and slowly move over.

First get a PC which has hardware which is supported by Linux (perhaps it is a good reason to get a new PC anyway) otherwise trying to get Linux installed is a waste of time (in the end all distributions use the same kernel and drivers with a slightly newer or older version). Until then use a virtual machine. Dual boot is the worst option because there will be a long delay to switch from one to the other.

I build my own thanks! if i buy a premade machine Mr expert I will have guarantee whatsoever but building my own I can ;pick each part. It would appear that there are big issues with nvidia and graphics are always a big part of problems, I'm even having problems on windows with it now. So I buy an AMD card.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I have been told so many good things about how well linux works I decided to try it. But it seems I need the right graphics card.

Lucky for you, you didn't try Linux back in the late '90's early 2000's. You had to download two or three floppy image files, copy across to said floppies (which was unreliable) and you then had a one in five chance of booting into the desktop because of the graphics adapter. Fun.

Oh wait...

[techman-001]

I have been told so many good things about how well linux works I decided to try it. But it seems I need the right graphics card.

Lucky for you, you didn't try Linux back in the late '90's early 2000's. You had to download two or three floppy image files, copy across to said floppies (which was unreliable) and you then had a one in five chance of booting into the desktop because of the graphics adapter. Fun.

Oh wait...

My first Linux install was Yggdrassil Linux in 1993 from a Cd on a Soundblaster Pro reader with interface on the sound card. I paid $150 for the sound card and $450 for the reader (not a writer).

Yggdrassil installed itself and the machine booted up into X Windows, sound worked, mouse worked and I had some lovely games of Reversi from the gui menu, but that was all I could do because I had zero Unix experience, I didn't know how to admin Unix or even use it.

The Video card was a Trident and X did lock up from time to time, but in 1993 Linux was love at first sight for me.

I was a utterly clueless Windows user, yet Linux installed X windows, all by itself in 1993 ...

[Karel]

No need to to assemble a Linux compatible pc yourself. There are plenty workstations or laptops from different brands which are Linux compatible (guaranteed by the manufacturer).
Some of them come with Linux pre-installed if you wish. For example Fujitsu-Siemens, Lenovo and Dell.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I have been told so many good things about how well linux works I decided to try it. But it seems I need the right graphics card.

Lucky for you, you didn't try Linux back in the late '90's early 2000's. You had to download two or three floppy image files, copy across to said floppies (which was unreliable) and you then had a one in five chance of booting into the desktop because of the graphics adapter. Fun.

Oh wait...

My first Linux install was Yggdrassil Linux in 1993 from a Cd on a Soundblaster Pro reader with interface on the sound card. I paid $150 for the sound card and $450 for the reader (not a writer).

Yggdrassil installed itself and the machine booted up into X Windows, sound worked, mouse worked and I had some lovely games of Reversi from the gui menu, but that was all I could do because I had zero Unix experience, I didn't know how to admin Unix or even use it.

The Video card was a Trident and X did lock up from time to time, but in 1993 Linux was love at first sight for me.

I was a utterly clueless Windows user, yet Linux installed X windows, all by itself in 1993 ...

Slackware (False start) > Redhat > Knoppix > Mandrake.

 

Somewhere in there I also ran smoothwall as a firewall for quite a while.

[Mechatrommer]

it was pretty common to install from diskettes even for Windows. iirc the Linux i installed few years back is pretty much the same as the Linux i installed on 20+ years back, it has nice wallpaper, taskbar and some things on the desktop, can open console and built in SWs, but it pretty much only that, flavors of softwares for real work and hardwares support was pretty much zero, back then. so i occupied myself to learn any possible (usefull) SW's i can get and however possible i can configure Windows, upgrade to my heart content HW's etc, rather than trying to master an OS alone, which was not my interest. nowadays, SWs (free) availability in Linux is much better, but still way behind from what Windows can offer, hardwares supports? i guess i'll need to wait another 20+ years to see that happening.

No need to to assemble a Linux compatible pc yourself. There are plenty workstations or laptops from different brands which are Linux compatible (guaranteed by the manufacturer).
Some of them come with Linux pre-installed if you wish. For example Fujitsu-Siemens, Lenovo and Dell.

until you find out your favourite game or SW's is lagging in performance or you want top notch performance, and hence SW or latest HW upgrade. opps you have few options to make it works.. 1) you need to master kernel programming Linux OS.. 2) ask in forum with hope someone can fix it for you... 3) 1 and 2 fail, so you pray one day someone or something will fix it for you, which can usually takes years or non at all... what you dont have is option 4... 4) it works out of the box (with HW driver or SW compatibility ready without virtualization nonsense).

this is the reason why China cheap crap HW like DSO or FG etc dont gain popularity in hobbiest market, let alone professionals. even though cheap, who have time to learn how and do programming to make it works? we want to do real work, not to make something works in order to do real work.

[Simon]

No need to to assemble a Linux compatible pc yourself. There are plenty workstations or laptops from different brands which are Linux compatible (guaranteed by the manufacturer).
Some of them come with Linux pre-installed if you wish. For example Fujitsu-Siemens, Lenovo and Dell.

Last time I looked at buying new machine I tried to find an off the shelf one but found that I could easily beat the specs of anything going for the same money. When USB 3.0 was widespread so many PC assemblers were still shipping machines with no or very few ports. I just gave up as clearly these days all the assemblers do is use clearance parts and still charge the earth.

[Simon]

Luckily I still have my old AMD card a R9 285.

[GeorgeOfTheJungle]

This is the reason why China cheap crap HW like DSO or FG etc dont gain popularity in hobbiest market, let alone professionals.

LOL. Watt?