A wireless mouse that doesn't suck

[perieanuo]

Logitech without its proprietary software is a paper weight   
most Microsoft / IBM plug and play PnP is the best.  any non proprietary windows mouse 

this story is related seeking perfection in mouse design. 
an idea I had back in 2010 2015 for a PC mouse design.
I have been looking at if its possible to have a TV mouse?
a wireless mouse that will track a vertical plane of projected rays of light micro dots from a projector on the TV
acting as to detect movement relative to the vertical plane micro dots projected.
as for the clicking   touch & click is the best IMO.  you touch to power-on the mouse. gab the virtual table top
and then click when over the target.

here is a cool wireless virtual surface mouse design with a problem 
infrared texture dot projector on the TV
uses a translucent window

IR radiation can be hazardous as the infrared light of micro dots from the projector  will go into your eyes!   
this is a problem without a solution,  as tilt tracking will not work, only vertical plane tracking.
see image

got a used Xbox Kinect , then did a destructive teardown on it, just to get the power led  micro dot projector out of it.
it failed to work! as a micro dot projector.
later that yr, I used the surface of a CD to bounce infrared light off it , to add texture to a projector light
it failed to work!
I have spent yrs playing with optical mice trying to make one fly, like a magic wand. free from any surface
but with all the accuracy of a table top.

the infrared projector is the key to solving this problem.
if the light was to pass through a liquid crystal display that acts as a shutter
letting only a small zone of the micro dot panorama to be projected at the mouse unit.
making the system safe as only a small zone of the micro dot radiation is beamd at the user's hand.
avoiding the user's eye's.
 however this adds to the complexity as now a video tracking camera and microcontroller are needed
along with a tracking beacon on the mouse unit. all this complexity is beyond my capability.
also tilting of the mouse needs to be addressed. as this can add the complexity.
just a look into the history of the Xbox Kinect tracking system gives you a little insight into this.
however a mouse tracking system will need to be more granular then the Kinect to get the needed resolution.
of 3mm over a micro dot panorama of 2 by 3 Meters, at 3 Meters from the projector unit.
by the use of the optics on the mouse unit itself. somthing beyond the Xbox Kinect in resolution.   
IMO I believe touch & click metallic buttons are the way to design this type of mouse.
I do hope somebody develops the perfect mouse design  for non table top or PC/television use.

is just an idea.  as I am  not a research and development department for google or microsoft
well that's all from me

you don't need this mumbo-jumbo for moving the cursor into your os.
look at cheap gyros for nvidia shield, I have one and it works great.
no infrared no x-rays no cryptonite, just the accelerometer inside your bluetooth toy and some sw/driver inside the os for moving the cursor

[perieanuo]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

[wraper]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

[SilverSolder]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

[wraper]

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

Frankly there is not so much issue with switches, rather with their usage without providing consistent pressure on the switch and very low wetting current. They could easily also use both NC and NO contacts in the switch for debounce and forever forget about double click issue. And to not cause excessive current drain in wireless mice, use pulsed voltage from MCU only when sampling inputs.
But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

[DulsecToupee]

I use Logitech G502 Lightspeed Wireless, it is enough for me.

[SilverSolder]

Awesome! 

We shouldn't have to do this kind of stuff...  Why won't Logitech go back to selling a quality product with severe duty rated switches...

Frankly there is not so much issue with switches, rather with their usage without providing consistent pressure on the switch and very low wetting current. They could easily also use both NC and NO contacts in the switch for debounce and forever forget about double click issue. And to not cause excessive current drain in wireless mice, use pulsed voltage from MCU only when sampling inputs.
But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

[rsjsouza]

But what the hell, effing 35 screws just to get to the damn switches  . And around 50 in total.

Hey, at least it is not that sea of easily breakable plastic tabs and locks that cheaper manufacturers love to use and save hundreths of dollars per unit.

[wraper]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant. Actually I had this issue with all of my 3 last $100+ wireless Logitech mice. Issue started happening in 3 months to 1 year. Apparently this issue is not prominent with their cheap wired models because of much larger wetting current and probably longer debounce time. It's simply astonishing they did not fix the issue for more than a decade and apparently it only became worse. I buy their mice only because of Hyperscroll wheel feature which is not available from other manufacturers because it's patented.
Also I have suspicion that flux vapor gets into switches during soldering or something like that. Because I've seen some slight tarnishing in them. And hand soldered replacement switches of the same model generally last much longer before the same issue starts happening.

[Ed.Kloonk]

https://imgur.com/r/Trackballs/1HFDs

Pfft, peasant  . Here is what I need to remove in my Logitech mouse to get to the switches.

Wow.

[Ed.Kloonk]

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

If it died tomorrow I'd try one of these:
https://www.logitech.com/en-nz/product/mx-ergo-wireless-trackball-mouse?crid=7

Imaginably, it won't play CS:GO well.

Dunno but have you ever used a Trackman (not Trackball) ?
This style for thumb use:


No mousepad required and only the footprint they take on your bench, knee or wherever you want to use them.
I converted my retired EE buddy to them a year or two back and he's now sold on them.

I have a cupboard full of these. And no, they are not for sale.
 

can u do a Teardown on one? 

Just for you, I can offer a peek of her with her top off.

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

[wraper]

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

It's because D2F is not an equivalent of D2FC series. They have larger plunger and longer travel distance.

[tautech]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

Congrats on saving your Trackman from the recycling. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

In the pet peeve thread. Would be interested to know if you have that same product over there where you are.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/your-pet-peeve-technical-or-otherwise/msg3252774/#msg3252774

Congrats on saving your Trackman from the recycling. 

 

[tautech]

Gave the wheel a clean with the Orange Power goo that Halcyon recommended.

Where ? I've missed that.

In the pet peeve thread. Would be interested to know if you have that same product over there where you are.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/your-pet-peeve-technical-or-otherwise/msg3252774/#msg3252774

Ah, OK just orange oil based cleaners.
Yeah we have a few based on that stuff and it strips grease and oils too.
Had a workshop hand cleaner based on orange oils and abrasive grits and was the best I've encountered.

Not much on the tools these days so I can get away with solvents and soap and the hands don't seem to mind the very occasional mistreatment. 

[Ed.Kloonk]

New switch is fitted and mouse is happy again. And so is it's user.

New switch is slightly more "clickier" if there's such a thing.

It's because D2F is not an equivalent of D2FC series. They have larger plunger and longer travel distance.

Spending a little time using the new switch, I'm thinking about plucking out the ones on the other desks. Night and day the tactile difference.

[tszaboo]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant.

I have a lot more problem with the plastics of the mouses. I dont think I ever had issue with the switches, although I always use wired mouse. So here is the history:
MX518: Plasitc logitech logo breaks into pieces. That is in the middle of the mouse, unusable.
G502: The rubberisation disintegrates, and collects dead skin, and looks disgusting continuously. Mouse wheel, wich is made out of some metal, paint wore off and it is rusting. And the wheel collects dead skin.
M500: Paint wears off. Why is it painted in the first place? Rubberisation is wearing off, after like 3 years of use. This one is for the office, so if I ask for a new one, they are just going to tell me it is perfectly working, and still better than the 10 year old crap that they are using.
But maybe I'm just asking for too much, a mouse should just disintegrate after 5 years of use.

[SilverSolder]

I have never experienced the "double click" issue except in very inexpensive microswitches.  The whole idea with them is to give them some mechanical hysteresis so they don't bounce...

AFAIK Logitech uses only Omron microswitches for two main buttons except the cheapest models. And they are plagued with false double click issue even with the most expensive 50 million clicks rated variant.

I have a lot more problem with the plastics of the mouses. I dont think I ever had issue with the switches, although I always use wired mouse. So here is the history:
MX518: Plasitc logitech logo breaks into pieces. That is in the middle of the mouse, unusable.
G502: The rubberisation disintegrates, and collects dead skin, and looks disgusting continuously. Mouse wheel, wich is made out of some metal, paint wore off and it is rusting. And the wheel collects dead skin.
M500: Paint wears off. Why is it painted in the first place? Rubberisation is wearing off, after like 3 years of use. This one is for the office, so if I ask for a new one, they are just going to tell me it is perfectly working, and still better than the 10 year old crap that they are using.
But maybe I'm just asking for too much, a mouse should just disintegrate after 5 years of use.

I have ancient MX310 mouses here with hundreds of thousands of miles on them.  Yes, they are painted and some of them have worn paint on the buttons...   but to my mind, they represent the pinnacle of Logitech's achievements,  before they started "overdoing" everything and stopping offering high quality basic mouses without a million extra buttons etc.

[palpurul]

I almost always buy non-wireless gaming mouse. They are great PCB design.