Is it now worth trying Windows 11?

[VK3DRB]

Hi.

I am mulling over whether to install Windows 11. Is it too early, or should I wait another year? I heard Windows 11 has been plagued by bugs, driver problems and compatibility issues. I need to look at the risk versus benefit of upgrading the OS. Last think I want to do it to have to buy some hardware because of "Bloody Bill Gates", or some software package ceases to work and uninstall/reinstall does not fix it. I use Altium, Fusion 360, Prus slicer, Brother P-Touch, Brother MFC-L2730DW, Code Composer, Arduino IDE, ESP32 Espressif-IDE, Cypress PSOC creator, Bitscope, Labview, Visual Studio, LTSpice and a host of other peripheral and software.

Do any of you use Windows 11 with any of the above and had driver issues or software issues? What performance or usability improvement is there over Windows 10? If it is another "Where Do You Want to Go To Today" O/S, I'll stick with Windows 10.

I have been burnt in the past by Microsoft's O/S update. In one case I have to throw an expensive Canon laser printer out when I went to Windows 7 (will never buy Canon again). Besides, Microsoft said Windows 10 will be the last O/S from them. We knew they were talking at the time. Hmm, why did they change their minds and update to 11 then?

- Dave

[IanB]

IMHO the only reason to update from Windows 10 to 11 is if Windows 11 has some feature or features you need that are not present in 10. If Windows 10 is working fine for you there would be no urgent reason to change.

Even if there are performance improvements, that would only matter if you are unsatisfied with the performance of what you have. And if you are unsatisfied with the performance of your current system, you would probably do better to upgrade the hardware in some way (more memory, SSD, etc.).

[james_s]

I wouldn't. From what little experience I've had with it, it's like Windows 10 only worse, and 10 is already virtually unusable.

[Fred27]

I use both daily - Windows 10 on my work-issued laptop and Windows 11 on a personal dev PC that I was using for work until I got their issued laptop. There's not a huge difference, but I prefer Windows 11.

I can't vouch for any of the programs you've mentioned, but have not had any compatability issues at all - even with potentially fussy apps like custom builds of Unreal Engine.

It sounds like you have no real reason to upgrade but I doubt you'll have any problems either.

[rdl]

I only use Windows for games so I still run Windows 7, though I can see Windows 10 probably will be necessary in the not too distant future. So I would say that if 10 is working for what you use it for, don't change.

[50ShadesOfDirt]

I feel like a broken record at times, but ...

Throw a virtualization program of your choice on your current machine, create a win11 vm, and test all of these software packages running on that newer os.

When all is good, then you can convert the PC itself to win11, and expect reasonably good results. With a good backup before you convert, you can fall right back to win10, if win11 somehow goes horribly wrong for you. Use free macrium backup software to get those disk image backups in place beforehand.

Win11 should net you improved performance, fixes, and possibly some new features that you care about ... all of which can be tested beforehand in the vm.

Hope this helps ...

[coromonadalix]

with a touch of "start is all back", win 11 is functional to a certain degree, have to do some tricks for the explorer with "explorer patcher" thing and contexts menus

[Helio_Centra]

I switched to Linux to avoid ever needing windows 11

[hubi]

I switched to Linux to avoid ever needing windows 11

I did the same thing to avoid windows 3.11.

[50ShadesOfDirt]

Not to make this into a windows vs linux thread ... as OP didn't ask for that, but ...

It remains fairly easy to pull out all the windows things you dislike (like the kitchen sink they throw in with everything else), and make the os your own. At that point, it is no different than linux, as you typically make linux your own, from whatever starting point distro you choose.

OpenShell makes it very easy for many to change the start menu in Win11 to what you want, getting many past the first hurdle to making the os their own. It should not require any weird patches, with the most current version (at least, that's my experience).

I hope the virtual vm suggestion works in helping OP to test all *his* constraints, and get to a good spot with the os ...

[james_s]

The issue I had when I had to use W10 at a former job is I'd get it set up to a reasonably tolerable state and then some update would come along and revert some of my changes. A couple of times it even "helpfully" uninstalled some program I had installed without asking saying it was incompatible, but then when I would reinstall it, it worked fine.

[coromonadalix]

For the settings, i try to use a custom made registry file

I push back all the settings i need,  just in case of M$oft  fuuck things up, and they love to do that  loll

you have some good forums on the web to help you ... tensforums, elevenforums    etc ...


I've seen a new fork of Zorin OS 16.1, began to try this one,   damn  it's impressive and well done,  tried other versions before

The sad thing, i'm always on a balance between Windows and or Other Os'es   windows is far from perfect, and others are getting more developed, and get more momentum, everything good in the old 10 was borked in this 11 ...

Win 11 with tons of tweaks is not good as win10 for me

[Karel]

Stick with the devil you know.
All OS'es suck. (some more than others)

[SiliconWizard]

I think you should wait.
Forever.

One interesting trend I'm witnessing is that an increasing number of people who were nothing like "geeks" are switching from Windows to Linux.
Of course there still is a lot of software and hardware that only runs on Windows (although for hardware it's getting rarer), but you can always run Windows in a VM if needed.

I'm personally still using Win (7) on my main workstation, and Linux on other boxes. My next workstation will probably not run Windows.

[aeberbach]

still run Windows 7

 

[jonovid]

don't do it  unless u like bugs .            wait for the pest exterminator

[james_s]

I still use Windows 7 on my main PC, it's far more stable and reliable than the later versions I've worked with. I shut off windows update years ago after they started pushing Win10 so hard and I've had zero problems since then, no new bugs, no constant changes and tweaks, it just works. It's a stable and mature OS, it's fantastic. I still have one machine with XP on it too that I use for my EPROM programmer and a few other old tools. It's connected to the internet when it's on although it isn't really suitable for browsing anymore. Stability seems to improve dramatically once they stop screwing with it.

[rdl]

My Windows 7 computer is connected to the living room TV. It's used for entertainment only. Movies and music streamed from a NAS, single player games, that sort of thing. The only internet usage is YouTube and a very select few other sites. For general computing and internet I use a different machine running Linux.

However, more and more games are requiring Windows 10 at a minimum and I'd really like to play Cyberpunk 2077, so I'm considering setting up a more modern system. I don't see any reason for Windows 11 at this time.

[SiliconWizard]

I think Cyberpunk 2077 is available for Linux on Steam. So...

[Zoli]

I think Cyberpunk 2077 is available for Linux on Steam. So...

For compatibility, check: https://www.protondb.com/

[rdl]

I dunno, Linux is not shown as a supported OS at GOG, and they're part of the company that made the game. Steam is not really an option for me anyway. When it comes to butt sniffing they're about as bad as Microsoft. I avoid them as much as possible.

Apologies for the derailment.

[james_s]

If you're playing vintage games, Dosbox runs just fine under Linux.

[SiliconWizard]

I'm not a gamer so that's not fully verified info, but I think people have managed to play Cyberpunk 2077 on Linux/Steam.

Now if you don't want to use Steam, I also fully understand that, but that's more or less the only option for playing a large variety of games on Linux. Pick your poison.

[nightfire]

With the recently made available Patch 22H2 Win 11 is interesting, as lots of bugs have been fixed.
At work (I am sysadmin in a software company), I have some systems running with it, mainly as testbed for our software devs.
For typical business use, we found no hickups so far. And I am aware that we will have to make the switch to Win11 somewhere in the next 2 years because of the MS lifecycle

For the typical home user, I do not see any big technical advantages other than the new fancy GUI- for the business user the whole security concept centered around TPM(2) is a new take on getting to a secure system.

[Karel]

... the whole security concept centered around TPM(2) is a new take on getting to a secure system.

For who exactly?

[JohanH]

I switched to Linux on all home computers when Windows Vista came out. At work mixed environment (windows desktop mandatory, linux and windows servers). The only advantage I see with Win 11 over 10 is more features in WSL2.

[JPortici]

... the whole security concept centered around TPM(2) is a new take on getting to a secure system.

For who exactly?

The legislator? I don't know, we will be forced anyway by 2025 because by then no more security updates so probably best rip the bandaid off. Company is looking into replacing my current PC. Man how subsidized is windows 11... The laptop litterally doubles in price if you select a different OS in the configurator.

Not going to move to linux. PCB suite doesn't support it natively (yet). Devtools running hicky and microchip hasn't really done an update release cycle this year, which alternatively worries me and makes me believe there is going to be a massive core update that "will solve everything once and for all (tm)"

aaaaand i'm still stuck with VB6 for a huge piece of legacy software i have no inclination, time, funds, authorization to move to anything else

what else... oh yeah, App dev tools are windows only, too. And customers will use windows anyway

[nvmR]

If you absolutely must use it, this is a lifesaver: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
Gives you back the normal context menu.

[Ramols]

Just be aware that most of the games still do not work on windows 11. It is not fully optimized.

[Ranayna]

The first question regarding Windows 11 should be: Are you willing to create a Microsoft account to use with the computer?
Because, unless you do some jumping through hoops with unknown possible consequences, you cannot setup Windows 11 without a Microsoft account.
The next question is then: Can you accept the crippled desktop, or are you willing to install third party applications to fix Microsoft's screwup?

Yes, there are still some ways of avoiding the account. Yes, you can fix the desktop using third party apps.
But you should ask yourself: Are you willing to jump through every hoop that Microsoft dangles before your nose?

I am now serving the cliche: "How do you know someone is using Linux? They will tell you!"
I am on Linux for more than six months now. After some initial uncertainty and hiccups i do not miss Windows at the moment. I do not have set up dual-boot, i have not even set up a virtual machine yet. And the main thing i am doing on my machine is gaming, with relatively little hobbyist electronics stuff. I encountred only a very small number of games that do not work for me under Linux. A couple of these were already iffy on Windows 10.

Do gaming under Linux is generally not a real problem anymore, unless you want to play the most recent multiplayer titles that are using various anit-cheat mechanisms. The most invasive of these work only on Windows. But even then: some of these games are now compatible with Proton.
Non Steam Games might require a bit of manual configuration. Games on Steam work almost out of the box most of the time.

Gaming on Linux took some leaps and bounds in the last year, and i expect it to steadily improve during the next couple of years.
Non-gaming Windows applications only stand to profit from that as well. And again i expect mostly the invasive anti=piracy measures to really create problems.

My verdict: If you are willing to experiment (And Windows 11 seems to be just as much an experiment as Linux would be), try out Linux. If not, just stay on Windows 10 for the time being. There is no rush yet to move away from it.

[gmb42]

The first question regarding Windows 11 should be: Are you willing to create a Microsoft account to use with the computer?
Because, unless you do some jumping through hoops with unknown possible consequences, you cannot setup Windows 11 without a Microsoft account.

!00% incorrect.  My home HP Envy Win 11 22H2 laptop does not have an MS account.  The system was originally Win 10 which I upgraded to Win 11 when it was released and just recently to 22H2.  That's not to say that occasionally the system does ask for an MS account but I just cancel that request.

The next question is then: Can you accept the crippled desktop, or are you willing to install third party applications to fix Microsoft's screwup?

Obviously if you are unable to operate a Win 11 desktop, because you can only cope with a Win 10 or Win 7 version then you'll have to make some changes to bring back the desktop you can manage with.  However, in my experience (very dangerous words), even the most technically inept users cope with desktop changes once they have had the location of the half-dozen things they need to click on for the limited use they make explained to them.

[coromonadalix]

If you absolutely must use it, this is a lifesaver: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
Gives you back the normal context menu.

yeah,  this one is helping me a lot to endure the windows 11 craziness,  the more i use W11  the more i hate it, they have done a good job to scrap   everything who was working fine in the menus


Even office as a small tendency to go that direction  for 2021  ....

[Ranayna]

The first question regarding Windows 11 should be: Are you willing to create a Microsoft account to use with the computer?
Because, unless you do some jumping through hoops with unknown possible consequences, you cannot setup Windows 11 without a Microsoft account.

!00% incorrect.  My home HP Envy Win 11 22H2 laptop does not have an MS account.  The system was originally Win 10 which I upgraded to Win 11 when it was released and just recently to 22H2.  That's not to say that occasionally the system does ask for an MS account but I just cancel that request.

I would consider having to do an upgrade of Windows 10 to get a Windows 11 without account requirement to be quite a big hoop to jump through.
Also it was already stated by MS that the option to upgrade will be a limited time offer.

However, in my experience (very dangerous words), even the most technically inept users cope with desktop changes once they have had the location of the half-dozen things they need to click on for the limited use they make explained to them.

In my experience technically inept users just take what they are given. They might bitch and moan, but often have no idea that other options might be better.
For my work machine, i would loose a lot of efficency with my work, should i be required to use a stock Windows 11 desktop. The taskbar locked to the bottom of the screen and the forced grouping of taskbar items are both just ridiculous.

So i have two quite distinct reasons to dislike Windows 11.
On my home machine, i just got fed up with jumping through Micosoft's hoops. I know that i could have done that, but i just did not want to anymore. The taskbar would not have been the major issue here.
On my work machine, where i do not have much control, i am very sceptical about the taskbar changes. The number of open windows i regularly require are much easier managed with a vertical ungrouped taskbar, so i hope i get the opportunity to install EplorerPatcher on my work machine when the inevitable update to Windows 11 is installed.

[DavidAlfa]

If you absolutely must use it, this is a lifesaver: https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher
Gives you back the normal context menu.

The normal context menu can be set with a simple reg key:
https://pureinfotech.com/bring-back-classic-context-menu-windows-11/

However the explorer patcher enhances a lot of other crappy stuff. But it's not very stable, my explorer crashes pretty often, while navigating a folder or copying files...bang! Everything closes and opens again.
Or enters "thinking mode", greyed unresponsive window.

Overall it's acceptable. But by no means close to Win7 stability and performance.

I hope Ameliorated project makes a W11 version soon:
https://ameliorated.info/

[james_s]

Even office as a small tendency to go that direction  for 2021  ....

I still use Office 2003, it's crazy to realize it's almost 20 years old but it does absolutely everything I need Office to do, and it has a proper menu instead of that stupid ribbon.

[nctnico]

Even office as a small tendency to go that direction  for 2021  ....

I still use Office 2003, it's crazy to realize it's almost 20 years old but it does absolutely everything I need Office to do, and it has a proper menu instead of that stupid ribbon.

It is the last version that actually works OK to some degree. Try to create numbered headings with later versions of MS Word... it is broken! Even Wordperfect 5.1 could do that just fine. IMHO MS Word never got to the level of Wordperfect 5.1 . When working on documents with MS Word I still think back to how easy an operation was with Wordperfect and it must be about 25 years since I last used Wordperfect.

[SiliconWizard]

The next question is then: Can you accept the crippled desktop, or are you willing to install third party applications to fix Microsoft's screwup?

Obviously if you are unable to operate a Win 11 desktop, because you can only cope with a Win 10 or Win 7 version then you'll have to make some changes to bring back the desktop you can manage with.  However, in my experience (very dangerous words), even the most technically inept users cope with desktop changes once they have had the location of the half-dozen things they need to click on for the limited use they make explained to them.

Uh. You're turning things around here. Interesting.

The whole point is precisely that the Win 11 desktop is geared towards technically inept users and will annoy the heck out of power users, and not particularly because they can't adapt to changes, but because MS has removed features instead of adding more. It's just a lot less productive, and the context menus are just the tip of the iceberg. The fact many functionalities are not even user-configurable is also a debilitating trend that doesn't only plague Windows or MS products in general. Gnome has suffered from the same fate. Android as well. And the list goes on.

Sure there will be third-party stuff flourishing to get some users back to a certain level of usability, but this stuff is often questionably stable and there is no justifiable reason for requiring that on a decent OS. Beyond stabilit, you'll run into the same problem as with Gnome extensions - Windows updates could break your third-party additions at any point leaving you with nothing and hoping that the maintainer of the particular addition you're using is going to update it as well.

In that regard, Gnome extensions are a joke. Every Gnome update breaks almost all of them and they need updating as well. They have guaranteed absolutely no stability for extensions.


Anyway, just when we thought MS couldn't do worse, they proved they could.

[Karel]

The whole point is precisely that the Win 11 desktop is geared towards technically inept users and will annoy the heck out of power users,  ...

There's less reason for microsoft to pay attention to power users. Many are switching to Linux now.
Why do you think that microsoft embraced Linux? Because that's where the developers are going.
And by offering WSL(2) they hope to slowdown this movement...

[SiliconWizard]

The whole point is precisely that the Win 11 desktop is geared towards technically inept users and will annoy the heck out of power users,  ...

There's less reason for microsoft to pay attention to power users. Many are switching to Linux now.
Why do you think that microsoft embraced Linux? Because that's where the developers are going.
And by offering WSL(2) they hope to slowdown this movement...

That's certainly true. It's all a marketing matter. Absolutely.

Though, it's marketing. And marketing in general is not just about finding and adapting to existing markets. That part is even not really marketing, but just sales. Marketing is mostly all about *creating* and shaping markets. So, while power users are looking elsewhere indeed, MS has clearly largely contributed to shaping that trend rather than just adapt to it.

[Ranayna]

I think Microsoft is also relying too much on the telemetry data it gets from most Windows machines.
I think that was cited as one of the reasons to lock the taskbar to the bottom of the screen. "(virtually) no one places it somewhere else". If i remember correctly, according to telemetry data, less than 1% of users move the taskbar.

But who is most likely to block as much telemetry data as possible? Power users and companies. And who mostly is using advanced features? Power users and companies... 
I might have enabled telemetry. If i knew i could trust Microsoft. But time and time again, Microsoft has shown it cannot be trusted, which is also my main reason i do not want to use a Micorosft account directly attached to my Windows. I just cannot trust them.

[james_s]

I think Microsoft is also relying too much on the telemetry data it gets from most Windows machines.
I think that was cited as one of the reasons to lock the taskbar to the bottom of the screen. "(virtually) no one places it somewhere else". If i remember correctly, according to telemetry data, less than 1% of users move the taskbar.

But who is most likely to block as much telemetry data as possible? Power users and companies. And who mostly is using advanced features? Power users and companies... 
I might have enabled telemetry. If i knew i could trust Microsoft. But time and time again, Microsoft has shown it cannot be trusted, which is also my main reason i do not want to use a Micorosft account directly attached to my Windows. I just cannot trust them.

This, Also the fact that you have to already be running Win10/11 and have a Microsoft account to provide feedback, so they never hear the feedback from people like me who find the OS unacceptable and don't use it on our own machines. They have created a loop where they only listen to the casual users, most of which just use what's put in front of them and don't know any better.

[Karel]

Also the fact that you have to already be running Win10/11 and have a Microsoft account to provide feedback, so they never hear the feedback from people like me who find the OS unacceptable and don't use it on our own machines. They have created a loop where they only listen to the casual users, most of which just use what's put in front of them and don't know any better.

Could be, but I doubt it if they are that stupid. My guess is that they gave up the fight with Linux and now they
want to focus on the big group of casual users (gamers, housewives, officeworkers, schools) because that's the
group where the money is.

[gmb42]

The first question regarding Windows 11 should be: Are you willing to create a Microsoft account to use with the computer?
Because, unless you do some jumping through hoops with unknown possible consequences, you cannot setup Windows 11 without a Microsoft account.

!00% incorrect.  My home HP Envy Win 11 22H2 laptop does not have an MS account.  The system was originally Win 10 which I upgraded to Win 11 when it was released and just recently to 22H2.  That's not to say that occasionally the system does ask for an MS account but I just cancel that request.

I would consider having to do an upgrade of Windows 10 to get a Windows 11 without account requirement to be quite a big hoop to jump through.
Also it was already stated by MS that the option to upgrade will be a limited time offer.

I think you've misunderstood me, I was attempting to point out I've never required an MS account for that system (initially Win 10 and then upgraded to Win 11) and nor have I needed one on the clean installs of Win 11 I've done.

I haven't done a clean install of Win 11 22H2 (only upgrades) so can't comment if there's any new changes there.

I guess I should also point out all these systems used the Pro or Enterprise version of the client OS.  I have no experience of the "Home" edition.

[Ranayna]

I haven't done a clean install of Win 11 22H2 (only upgrades) so can't comment if there's any new changes there.

I guess I should also point out all these systems used the Pro or Enterprise version of the client OS.  I have no experience of the "Home" edition.

That's the big change with 22H2. Even on Pro editions, you need an MS Account to complete setup on a fresh install, if you do not have a domain controller to join the machine to during setup.
I guess MS did not totally want to piss off existing customers by bricking machines that were upgraded from earlier versions without the forced account so they don't enforce this

Yes, there are ways to circumvent the account, even on Home editions, and without a domain controller. Currently the workarounds can be as easy as trying to use an invalid account. But no one knows how long these workarounds will be available.

I would have paid for a Windows where i can skip MS account setup and fully disable telemetry. Even more than i paid for my last Windows 10 Pro license, which was 130 Euro.
But i cannot, since Enterprise and Education editions are not legally available for end users. You can only get them in volume licensing programs, and these prohibit resale of single licenses. So there is no way to get these outside of the grey market.

[rdl]

I'd love to know how much money they make off Windows 10/11 from all the data mining. Because I would have happily paid $100 or so per year for a guaranteed telemetry/ad free version of Windows 7 with continuing security updates.

[SiliconWizard]

I'd love to know how much money they make off Windows 10/11 from all the data mining. Because I would have happily paid $100 or so per year for a guaranteed telemetry/ad free version of Windows 7 with continuing security updates.

Yep. And I personally wouldn't have for $100 a year. I would have for a "normal", non-subscription license at a normal price. Something like $150-$200 for a license covering use until EOL.

Renting  schemes can go to hell.

[james_s]

Yes I'll pay for updates if and when I decide that the update offers something compelling. The reason that everyone is pushing the subscription model so hard is that software in general has matured to the point where most people aren't going to bother to upgrade very often.

[SiliconWizard]

Yes I'll pay for updates if and when I decide that the update offers something compelling. The reason that everyone is pushing the subscription model so hard is that software in general has matured to the point where most people aren't going to bother to upgrade very often.

There's that, and I think it also better matches the current way of developing software, which is, releasing something barely ok (rather than waiting to have something polished to release) and then providing a constant stream of updates to make up for it.

A customer buying a product expects to get something polished and working as marketed. Subscription schemes allow companies to do otherwise.

When you sell a product with a pay-once license, you better make sure it is good, otherwise fixing it after sales will cost you a fortune. If it's subscription-based, fixing it after sales actually makes you money.

[james_s]

That's another good reason for me to refuse to buy software in general, I'll use older polished versions or open source. If I'm willing to put up with half baked stuff that is in a constant state of flux I can get that for free, I don't need to subscribe.

[rdl]

After thinking about it, I probably wouldn't pay either. After all, the only Windows machine I still use is running non-registered, non-updated Windows 7 SP2.

[james_s]

I turned off updating completely in 2015 when they started pushing Windows 10, I've had much less trouble with my Win7 machine since then, it just works.

[IanB]

I think you've misunderstood me, I was attempting to point out I've never required an MS account for that system (initially Win 10 and then upgraded to Win 11) and nor have I needed one on the clean installs of Win 11 I've done.

I resisted setting up Windows machines with a Microsoft account for a long time, but I eventually realized that by using local user accounts I was just causing pain for myself, like walking around with a ball and chain attached to my ankle. When I moved from Win 7 to Win 10 I relented and set the machines up with my MS account. The experience is so much smoother and more pleasant that I will not go back.

[james_s]

I resisted setting up Windows machines with a Microsoft account for a long time, but I eventually realized that by using local user accounts I was just causing pain for myself, like walking around with a ball and chain attached to my ankle. When I moved from Win 7 to Win 10 I relented and set the machines up with my MS account. The experience is so much smoother and more pleasant that I will not go back.

I know they are hoping everyone will just do as you've done, but I steadfastly refuse to give in. I will give up Windows entirely before I create an online account.

[IanB]

I know they are hoping everyone will just do as you've done, but I steadfastly refuse to give in. I will give up Windows entirely before I create an online accoune.

You don't have any online accounts at all? No Google? No Apple?

For me, using a Microsoft account for Windows is not much different than using an Apple account for iPhone or Mac, or using a Google account for Android or Gmail.

[Ed.Kloonk]

I know they are hoping everyone will just do as you've done, but I steadfastly refuse to give in. I will give up Windows entirely before I create an online accoune.

You don't have any online accounts at all? No Google? No Apple?

For me, using a Microsoft account for Windows is not much different than using an Apple account for iPhone or Mac, or using a Google account for Android or Gmail.

In the early days, you did indeed had to have a on-line account to manage your remote terminal access and to time-share valuable resources. But James' point is excellent. Everything you need to do what you want to do is already in your house or even in your hand.

[james_s]

You don't have any online accounts at all? No Google? No Apple?

For me, using a Microsoft account for Windows is not much different than using an Apple account for iPhone or Mac, or using a Google account for Android or Gmail.

I have an apple account that I use exclusively for my iphone, I don't like it but there is no alternative, Android needs an account too. Still it's a phone that requires a service provided to do anything, my PC on the other hand does not. It is a standalone machine, in my ~35 years of using PCs I have never needed an online account to use one and I'm not going to change that. It's a self contained *personal* computer, not a dumb terminal.

So no, just no. I didn't ask for a Microsoft account, I don't want a Microsoft account, and on principal I absolutely refuse to sign up for one and the more they try to pester me to do so the more I will dig in my heals.

[rdl]

I figure the less of Google and Microsoft there is in my life, the better off I am. I probably had accounts with both of them at one time, but that was a decade or two ago.

[Ranayna]

I think you've misunderstood me, I was attempting to point out I've never required an MS account for that system (initially Win 10 and then upgraded to Win 11) and nor have I needed one on the clean installs of Win 11 I've done.

I resisted setting up Windows machines with a Microsoft account for a long time, but I eventually realized that by using local user accounts I was just causing pain for myself, like walking around with a ball and chain attached to my ankle. When I moved from Win 7 to Win 10 I relented and set the machines up with my MS account. The experience is so much smoother and more pleasant that I will not go back.

I am genuinely curious what the big advantage is you are seeing for using an MS Account to sign in to Windows.
I have to admit i can't speak of the usability, because i never used the MS Store or OneDrive, but as far as i know, at least on Windows 10, these work with a local windows Account. Of course you need to sign in to the store and OneDrive, but the login should be able to be saved.

I know that Office 365 works with a local Windows account. You just have to be careful on initial setup to not hit the wrong button and convert your local account to a MS Account.
For the time i used it, it sometimes nagged me (which just added to my annoyance with Microsoft), but worked fine.

[SiliconWizard]

That is something you either say no to, or you accept everything that possibly goes with it.
An online account is worse for privacy than bare telemetry, which is already pretty bad.

If you find it convenient, good for you. Everyone should have a choice either way. I don't ever want anyone to tell me what I need and what is convenient for me or not. This trend is rampant everywhere and it has got to stop.

[Karel]

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/04/rufus_explorerpatcher_windows_11/

[DavidAlfa]

Got tired of the Explorer crashing, yesterday it crashed every few minutes when copying files, so I removed Explorer Patcher.
Can't blame it 100%, could also be the ext2fsd driver, but it was installed long time ago and I don't remember such issues.

[Karel]

The end game? Selling thin-client/low-cost devices to businesses and consumers and offsetting costs via ads and subscriptions.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/whats-next-for-windows-cloud-integration-ad-and-subscription-powered-devices/

[Warhawk]

I switched to windows 11 when I bought Framework laptop. I have the 12gen core with the big-little thing and was told that the scheduler in w10 does not work that well with it. I also have W10 on my corporate laptop.
I like windows 11 way more. I did not do any additional adjustments. I like the window manager that I use with my ultra widescreen monitor. I am too supprised because generally I am conservative. Windows 2000 is the best UI for me. 

[BeBuLamar]

I tried Windows 11 on my Lenovo P1 Gen4 laptop. It has an I7-11800H 2.30GHz, 32GB RAM, 1TB hard drive, Nvidia RTX2000. It went thru the installation then restart but ran into some kind of problem so it went back to Windows 10. I tried twice.

[DavidAlfa]

Upgraded to 22H2. Few cosmetic updates, seems snappier and faster.

Edit: Said nothing, it's 22H2 aka bugged version!
Has tons of weird issues, stay with 21H2 for a while!

[SiliconWizard]

Upgraded to 22H2. Few cosmetic updates, seems snappier and faster.

Edit: Said nothing, it's 22H2 aka bugged version!
Has tons of weird issues, stay with 21J2 for a while!

 

[SL4P]

I don’t like the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
But I wish OS vendors could understand the idea behind that.

[james_s]

I don’t like the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
But I wish OS vendors could understand the idea behind that.

They operate off the principal of "If it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is"

[The Soulman]

I don’t like the saying “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”
But I wish OS vendors could understand the idea behind that.

Yeah, Imho "they" have deliberately broken a perfectly fine windows 7 and now a at least usable windows 10.
I'm in a argument now with dell about all sorts of audio stability issues on a new latitude laptop with w10 pro, they say reinstall w10, I say screw it, this is nonsense!
Been a happy dell+windows (xp/7) user for twenty years but enough is enough!
Although I absolutely despise apple it seems to be the least worse os as far as simply respecting user settings, yes the world is falling apart. 

[DavidAlfa]

I was fine with 21H2, but a windows update completely broke the system, made it unbooteable, so there was no other way, after trying everything I finally decided to make a fresh 22H2 install.

It's terribly buggy.
Shortly after fresh install, all the Modern apps stopped working (Store, Calculator...) had to reset all of them.
If you open the Explorer by clicking "This PC", everything is normal, but when issuing Win+E, "This PC" is missing, no drives, only Desktop/Docs/Downloads/etc and Network are present.
If you enable "Show This PC" on folder options, then it works with Win+E, but opening through This PC shortcut shows it twice!
Sometimes Home also appears duplicated.

Getting sudden reboots without any warning, while working the screen suddenly goes black "Rebooting..." WTF?
Navigating the filesystem causes frequent freezes, where even the mouse stops reponding for few seconds.

How the hell do you release something in this state?

[artag]

How the hell do you release something in this state?

It's what you do when you believe you have a captive market.
The solution is to uncaptivate yourself.

[nigelwright7557]

Windows 11 adds more security and also runs Intel efficiency cores correctly.
I found it awkward to find some functions I wanted when I first got it.
I haven't had any driver problems except for it wont run my 32 bit graphics program IPhoto any more yet Win10 did.
It was buggy when it first came out but recently  I havent found any problems.

[SiliconWizard]

How the hell do you release something in this state?

You call your dev processes "agile" with all the buzzwords and organizational nonsense, convincing whoever wants to be convinced that dev cycles will be much shorter this way and will cost less - while claiming that it is in the users' best interest as their "inputs" will be integrated in a much timely manner. Everyone should win, right?

You even attach the "continuous delivery" mantra to this, convincing your teams and investors  that software quality will dramatically improve. (Spoiler alert: not so much.)

Then you get your customers used to the crap output it generates until they keep quiet enough not to cause business issues. Which is relatively easy once they think they have no choice.

Interesting to notice how many die-hard Windows users are switching to MacOS.

[Karel]

https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/

 

[james_s]

The thing is, most people stick with windows no matter how bad it gets, because putting up with the crap is easier than switching ecosystems. I like my work Macbook but Apple has their own problems, not the least of which being an extremely small selection of hardware. Linux is nice but suffers from fragmentation and a perception that it is hard to use. There just really aren't too many options, I abandoned Windows beyond 7, but most people just use what is put in front of them.

[50ShadesOfDirt]

One doesn't need an online account to use Win10/Win11 ... if you do as MS wants you to, and go online (or think you have to), then your choice of trade-offs begin.

I tend to create a "dummy" account for those online services that are going to harvest my data. It's not perfect, but it is a way to stop some/most of the data harvesting (keep it generic), along with disabling telemetry. Facebook was a hard one, but I got it done ... I don't use facebook, but it was a challenge to see if I could get past their screening while not giving up my real name. Many of the other services were super easy to "dummify" or "anonimize".

Most of the data-harvesting/ad-targeting madness is for the masses, who, without any effort at some basic research, will be the 80% part of the bell curve (OK, 99%) suffering. If the country allows all this data harvesting followed by ad targeting for the sake of business over the individual (opt out vs opt in), then the only defense I can think of is blocking it out (again, with research into how to do that). It's (business) war, but still winnable for us home users who don't run with the masses ...

Win10/11 remains very useful, once decrapified ...

[james_s]

I can't be bothered to expend the effort to decrapify it. Windows 7 already works fine out of the box, and recently Linux has been meeting my needs.

[SiliconWizard]

To be fair, MacOS is pretty good and with a lot less nonsense, and a lot more consistency than current Windows. Obviously the drawback is being tied to Apple hardware, which, while good per se, I'm not very fond of either. Also, many dev tools (such as FPGA vendor tools) are not available on MacOS. That I know of.

There are ways to install MacOS on PC hardware, but that's pretty much a "hack" and is unsupported, so probably not something you'd be using for any serious work. I'd be curious to give it a shot though.

Linux is great but there's still no desktop environment that really matches the commercial ones. I personally use Linux on my laptop (with a Win 7 dual boot), with Gnome before, and recently switched to KDE. It's not bad, but still not quite there IMHO. Otherwise I have a Linux-based NAS/server and a headless Linux box for running a number of tools over the LAN. My main workstation is still on Win 7 even though it has recent hardware.

[DavidAlfa]

Don't make me laugh about Linux. It's only attributes are versatile and free.
Otherwise? Anything "deep" will need a whole afternoon setting up libraries, dependencies, "oh it's not working", hand-editing tons of files like in 1988.
If you say it's not true, then you didn't use Linux enough.

[Karel]

Don't make me laugh about Linux. It's only attributes are versatile and free.
Otherwise? Anything "deep" will need a whole afternoon setting up libraries, dependencies, "oh it's not working", hand-editing tons of files like in 1988.
If you say it's not true, then you didn't use Linux enough.

DLL hell happens also on windows, nothing new there.
Still, Linux is the most used operating system in the world (even if you take android out of the equation).
Apart from that, ms windows offers WSL(2), look it up. Also, most microsoft azure instances are running Linux.
So, there must be something good about it...
The desktop is the only place where Linux isn't king.

 

[james_s]

Don't make me laugh about Linux. It's only attributes are versatile and free.
Otherwise? Anything "deep" will need a whole afternoon setting up libraries, dependencies, "oh it's not working", hand-editing tons of files like in 1988.
If you say it's not true, then you didn't use Linux enough.

I have a feeling you have not used Linux in 20 years if ever. I don't remember the last time I had to spend hours chasing dependencies like that, maybe a decade ago? Most of the time it's as simple as 'sudo apt-get install xyz' and a few moments later the software is installed and working.

The biggest attributes for me is that it doesn't have constant forced updates and it isn't full of ads. I don't even care that it's free, I can afford to pay for an operating system that works well.

[DavidAlfa]

DLL what?
Install VC, .NET or whatever framework, done, they'll all will coexist together just fine.

I've used Linux specially for the last few years.
apt install 4000 dependencies...ok.. but nothing works, giving thousands of errors.
After a day tearing my hair appart, found libc was updated and wasn't backwards-compatible.
No warning about wrong version, only 4 trillion compilation errors, suddenly all code made before 2020 was useless.
You have to be half-developer to make it work and spend hours searching.

I use linux, it's great while it doesn't break or some shitty update break compatibility with everything.
But I quickly understood why reverse engineering relatively new programs showed they were compiled with GCC 5, Ubuntu 14, Linux is the extreme version of "If ain't broke, don't fix it".
So all your patches, custom code will sudenly be useless and require to spend al lot of time migrating them, it's an endless effort, I can hear the programers -no thanks, I won't fckign update my Linux, thanks again -

[james_s]

I dunno what you're doing but I have Linux on quite a few things and I'm not having the problems you're describing. Even my mom has been using Linux for around 5 years and she is totally technologically inept. I don't think she is even totally aware that it is anything other than some other version of Windows.

[DavidAlfa]

I repeat, for everyday use (Browsing, Email, Office...) It'll be just fine.
The nightmare comes when you try to compile something.
Ex.a great project from 2019 you found somewhere.
Install dependencies, make... Quintillion errors.
Ah, this 50 libraries changed and the code is useless. Great.
So you either spend days or weeks rewriting the code, or have to install a different Linux version everytime.
Probably I'm missing some holy grail that let's you overcome this, but I've spend tons of hours researching with no luck.

[JohanH]

Ex.a great project from 2019 you found somewhere.
Install dependencies, make... Quintillion errors.
Ah, this 50 libraries changed and the code is useless. Great.
So you either spend days or weeks rewriting the code, or have to install a different Linux version everytime.
Probably I'm missing some holy grail that let's you overcome this, but I've spend tons of hours researching with no luck.

So how many Windows applications have you successfully compiled on the Windows side?

It's not weeks rewriting code. In most cases it's changing references to new library versions. Sometimes some libraries do add breaking changes. In these cases they use to keep the old one in parallel, but you still have to change the name, e.g. library1 and library2. Sometimes you have to port it to the new version, but it's rarely something that breaks the application. This would be trivial for the original developer of the software. If you are not a developer, it might not be so easy.

And this isn't exactly an issue or only a Linux issue. A bit different example, but I have a virtual Windows XP machine stored that contains Visual Studio 6, just for an old component that might need changes (I had to do it once a couple of years ago). The component itself runs fine in newer versions of Windows, but good luck trying to compile it on a modern system.

[nvmR]

I believe correct use of dockers should allow you to safely use sudo apt-get update, without destroying the ability to compile your homebrew stuff.

[SiliconWizard]

I repeat, for everyday use (Browsing, Email, Office...) It'll be just fine.
The nightmare comes when you try to compile something.
Ex.a great project from 2019 you found somewhere.
Install dependencies, make... Quintillion errors.
Ah, this 50 libraries changed and the code is useless. Great.
So you either spend days or weeks rewriting the code, or have to install a different Linux version everytime.
Probably I'm missing some holy grail that let's you overcome this, but I've spend tons of hours researching with no luck.

While you seem to be exaggerating the problem a bit, you have a point here. Software distribution is precisely what is the most problematic on Linux currently, mostly due to heavy fragmentation, and what hinders its progression outside of the server world. I'm not the only one saying that - even Linus himself said it repeatedly.

I don't really see a "solution" to that though. It's what comes with freedom. To avoid that, you need an OS that is strictly controlled by one entity. And you'll get yet another Windows.

And, if you need "dockers" to distribute software, that's not a scalable solution. That's huge bloat everywhere.

[Bud]

It's not weeks rewriting code. In most cases it's changing references to new library versions.

Great. Why for eFcking sake should I be doing this as a User? I was told "Linux just works". It turns out there nothing even close to that.

[james_s]

Great. Why for eFcking sake should I be doing this as a User? I was told "Linux just works". It turns out there nothing even close to that.

Because he's talking about compiling code. You're going to have similar challenges on Windows too. Linux does "just work" if you're using the PC like a normal user doing normal user things like browsing the web, emailing, social media, watching videos and such. When you want to build software it's rare that anything "just works", that's why they call developers software engineers.

[JohanH]

Great. Why for eFcking sake should I be doing this as a User? I was told "Linux just works". It turns out there nothing even close to that.

Your complaint is ridiculous. If you download random source code from the Internet and try to compile it, it's up to you to install libraries that it needs. You will certainly have similar issues on any operating system.

[nctnico]

I repeat, for everyday use (Browsing, Email, Office...) It'll be just fine.
The nightmare comes when you try to compile something.
Ex.a great project from 2019 you found somewhere.
Install dependencies, make... Quintillion errors.
Ah, this 50 libraries changed and the code is useless. Great.
So you either spend days or weeks rewriting the code, or have to install a different Linux version everytime.
Probably I'm missing some holy grail that let's you overcome this, but I've spend tons of hours researching with no luck.

While you seem to be exaggerating the problem a bit, you have a point here. Software distribution is precisely what is the most problematic on Linux currently, mostly due to heavy fragmentation, and what hinders its progression outside of the server world. I'm not the only one saying that - even Linus himself said it repeatedly.

I don't really see a "solution" to that though. It's what comes with freedom.

Typically a configure script that should come with source should at least list missing dependancies and -at least on Debian- you can have different versions of libraries installed. But really old source code may need some fixing before it can be compiled using newer libraries.

[nvmR]

And, if you need "dockers" to distribute software, that's not a scalable solution. That's huge bloat everywhere.

SiliconWizard, you don't need dockers to distribute software, you need them to make sure your compile environment is stable and unchanged from your last compile.

[Marco]

Linux is really not much difference from say Macs in breaking backward compatibility at API level, though at least the official stores are a bit better with keeping developers from using internal APIs and statically linking stuff they shouldn't statically link. Going dictator on developers helps a lot.

Microsoft works around shitty devs to make their fragile shit work, Apple takes a baseball bat to their knees to slightly prevent fragility and to just update often ... Linux muddles on. Now everyone just runs software in containers to work around it.

[TimFox]

An excerpt from a recent e-mail from MalwareBytes warning of the impending non-support of Windows 8 (does anyone have that?):
"The slightly less bad version of the worst version of Windows since the last really bad version of Windows is finally being put to rest."

[nigelwright7557]

I wouldn't. From what little experience I've had with it, it's like Windows 10 only worse, and 10 is already virtually unusable.

I have used Windows 11 since it came out.
Plenty of bugs to start with but it has improved vastly over time.

I cant think of any problems I have with it at the moment.

The added security of Win 11 is vital for me having over 30 years of work on my PC.
Secure boot TPM etc etc are good.

[Karel]

I disabled TPM in UEFI/BIOS on all my computers because it's designed to add "security" for third parties,
not for the owner or user of the computer. For example, think of DRM (Digital Restrictions Management),
identification purposes (I want to be in control if an application can identify me or not), etc.
Not only criminals have something to hide, also good people. What can be perfectly ok today, can be illegal tomorrow.

[james_s]

An excerpt from a recent e-mail from MalwareBytes warning of the impending non-support of Windows 8 (does anyone have that?):
"The slightly less bad version of the worst version of Windows since the last really bad version of Windows is finally being put to rest."

I just set up a Windows 8.1 laptop for somebody a few weeks ago. Out of the box it's horrible, but with Classic Shell it is superior to any later versions. You can customize it and it stays customized, it doesn't auto update and "helpfully" revert settings to default or uninstall software it thinks is incompatible.

[aeberbach]

Windows 11 still has some basic issues. I swapped a new bigger m.2 drive into the PC and downloaded a Microsoft Windows 11 image to reinstall. My PC is not supported! Supposedly I need to buy a TPM 2.0 module, 1.x is not secure enough... I didn't bother and just installed Windows 10. One week later, Windows Update happily installed Window 11 like there had never been a problem at all.

Windows 11 looks a little nicer but I don't notice much difference.

[coromonadalix]

Basic issues indeed, received an update

upon reboot  blank screens, only mouse pointer     wow   that's a first

[SiliconWizard]

It's kind of sad to see how badly they have managed to mess Windows up.

I think the main issue with Windows has always been with MS trying to copycat others while consistently failing.

- They wanted to copycat mobile OSs, and they have mostly failed while leaving a lot of crap in Windows along the way from Win 8 to Win 11, the damage looks like forever there,
- Then they wanted to copycat MacOS, and came up with this sinister joke which is W11.

All of this while switching their business model from a software vendor to a data collecting business.

[james_s]

It's kind of sad to see how badly they have managed to mess Windows up.

I think the main issue with Windows has always been with MS trying to copycat others while consistently failing.

The thing I see is that when they try to copy others, they fundamentally miss why the thing they're trying to copy is popular and they copy the wrong aspects of it.

It also doesn't help that they fired all of their QA and moved to a model of relying on developers to unit test their code, automation and using paying customers as their QA team. Absolutely nobody asked for Windows "as a service" and shipping a "minimum viable product" (garbage) and then fixing it "later" with a constant stream of updates that break other things is not an improvement over the old arrangement of ship something that is finished and then focus on fixing security holes that are found.

[Karel]

Well, on the other hand, there's an alternative now.
For example, 20 years ago the situation was much worse, there was practically no alternative than to use windows.

[John B]

I'll throw my vote in that since my shift to using Linux, I have not needed to boot my windows machine to do any tasks. In fact after leaving it off for a week it no longer starts, I assume that the PSU gave up.

I'm on Fedora, I had a bit of a rocky start with the KDE Plasma environment, but now I think I prefer it over the GNOME environment. It's going to be more familiar to a windows user.

I really don't miss windows at all.

[Ed.Kloonk]

 

[JeremyC]

Hi.

I am mulling over whether to install Windows 11. Is it too early, or should I wait another year? I heard Windows 11 has been plagued by bugs, driver problems and compatibility issues. I need to look at the risk versus benefit of upgrading the OS. Last think I want to do it to have to buy some hardware because of "Bloody Bill Gates", or some software package ceases to work and uninstall/reinstall does not fix it. I use Altium, Fusion 360, Prus slicer, Brother P-Touch, Brother MFC-L2730DW, Code Composer, Arduino IDE, ESP32 Espressif-IDE, Cypress PSOC creator, Bitscope, Labview, Visual Studio, LTSpice and a host of other peripheral and software.

Do any of you use Windows 11 with any of the above and had driver issues or software issues? What performance or usability improvement is there over Windows 10? If it is another "Where Do You Want to Go To Today" O/S, I'll stick with Windows 10.

I have been burnt in the past by Microsoft's O/S update. In one case I have to throw an expensive Canon laser printer out when I went to Windows 7 (will never buy Canon again). Besides, Microsoft said Windows 10 will be the last O/S from them. We knew they were talking at the time. Hmm, why did they change their minds and update to 11 then?

- Dave

You may try Windows 11 for free in virtual machine using VirtualBox (free software).
VirtualBox can be installed in Windows and Linux OSes. Check the link below:
https://www.makeuseof.com/virtualbox-70-install-windows-11/

[nigelwright7557]

Windows 11 came out to make use of efficiency and performance cores for Intel.

While a lot of Windows works ok some of it is a real pain.
Trying to setup a wifi link from desktop to laptop has bits all over the place that need to be right at both ends.
To be user friendly I should be able to set up the link on one page.

With Windows 10 came extra security which previously Windows was poor for.

[Infraviolet]

For the most part I've only heard bad things about Win 11 (this sort of stuff ).

To improve security I'd tend to recommend people move over to Linux (which also hands you back control of your own system rather than having M$ make you ever more cloud dependent). If one needs, as we so often do, Windows exe software there is a small chance it will work under the Wine compatibility layer (some things workperfectly, others not at all), but otherwise one can always put any Windows version in to a virtual machine so as to run Windows programs in their native environment whilst having a more stable and controllable Linux (Mint, Ubuntu... one of the more uer friendly "easy"distributions rather than the "hardcore" "terminal for everything handle dependcies yourself" distros) host system.

[mapleLC]

and shipping a "minimum viable product" (garbage)

I remember well when this word became a thing.  We went from building things that worked to having some CIO tell us no no, we can get away with this "minimum viable product" shit.

It has merit as a term, but I saw it sold as a feature when it was really presenting the user an incomplete solution. "Hey we can deploy it now whammo!" The next word that was usurped to describe the missing parts of the solution were now "technical debt."

An incomplete solution is "viable" and what you couldn't get done is a "debt."  George Carlin lives.

It might not sound as bad as it is... they'll get the missing pieces, right?  No.  In comes the next fun word... "re-prioritization" usually coupled with the word "meeting."

Re-prioritiation always favored what is new and shiny... because technically the other project is finished "its viable" remember, and we just owe a debt.  You have no idea how many crippled solutions get built with this mentality and never get fixed because nobody will pay for it.  Its hard enough for departments to get "prioritization" from IT, when they finally do, they get half of what they wanted, and will never get any attention again.

You can draw a line right from Microsoft to this mentality.  Its incredible how such an averge-at -best company keeps scoring losses and is still viable.  Their OS is a data mining  piece of shit.

[SiliconWizard]

It's kind of sad to see how badly they have managed to mess Windows up.

I think the main issue with Windows has always been with MS trying to copycat others while consistently failing.

The thing I see is that when they try to copy others, they fundamentally miss why the thing they're trying to copy is popular and they copy the wrong aspects of it.

They fundamentally have no vision, which I think is what has "plagued" MS as much as it has helped them, and which I think explains why they consistently miss innovations and end up catching up somewhat by shelling out gigantic amounts of cash. They keep jumping on bandwagons. They have rarely created them, if ever.

Their success though is largely due to a series of nasty commercial practices (like when they have prevented PC vendors from selling their machines with anything else than Windows if they wanted to sell Windows at all), all the drama with Internet Explorer, the forced updates, and so on. And with the reaped cash, they can spend billions for making up for bad strategic decisions.

That may sound a bit harsh but I think that pretty much sums it up in a simplified way.

And they'll keep doing what they have always done. They'll jump on the latest bandwagon without quite understanding it -  it has been the cloud, and now it's AI that's all the rage - and force their way until most people have almost no choice  but use their products.

Win 12 is in the works and besides small changes in the UI, it's going to be pumped full of AI-related tools. Expect ten times the amount of "phoning home" to make it all work.

[tiggerlator]

Been using win 11 on my high end water cooled gaming rig since the beta with zero problems.

[james_s]

Glad it's working for you. For many of us however there are serious problems, many of them fundamental.

[rdl]

It's not so much that it doesn't work, it's just that it does a lot of things an OS has no business doing.

[SiliconWizard]

Oh, but Windows 12 is going to be much worse.

[mapleLC]

Oh, but Windows 12 is going to be much worse.

My #1 realization in the last year is how good open source has gotten.  It took this long to be viable, but I believe anyone that has awareness of MSFT/Windows behavior would not install it because you actually do have an alternative that will work.

[james_s]

I tried to like Linux for many years, but on the desktop (or laptop) I always hit situations fairly quickly where I spent hours and hours trying to get something simple to work before giving up. It has been working great for server type stuff for years, I have several RPis and my router and other things running Linux no problem but desktop always fell short. Then about a year ago my main laptop broke so I pulled out an old one and threw Mint on it. I bought some parts machines to fix my Windows laptop but they're still just sitting there a year later and I'm still using the Linux machine. I haven't had to do any of the tinkering I remember on it, it's finally gotten pretty good. Windows ran out of compelling improvements to make then regressed significantly starting with Win8 and over time Linux just kept plodding along until it caught up.

[John B]

In today's episode of "Goodbye Windows", I got Skyrim working for fun on Fedora. It was shockingly easy, all that was needed was an additional wine prefix/plugin(?) to get the audio working properly.

[Ranayna]

I have to admit that i am about to cave.

I have now been running Linux for more than a year now, primarily for gaming. And gaming is *not* the reason why I will be switching back to Windows 10, maybe 11 later, soon.

At work, I need to use, administer and support Windows Clients and Servers. I have a lot of experience with it, that accumulated over the last 20 years.
Even after a year of using Linux now, I still not not really have an experience level with Linux that is even remotely close. Of course I haven't.
But this "living in two worlds" does not help me, especially now that Windows 11 is about to be introduced at work.

I have access to an Enterprise License that I am allowed to use at home. So I know I can use Windows without a forced account and no telemetry.

For me it was never a technical reason to try a switch to Linux. Windows always worked fine for me, and i know enough about it to fix virtually all problems with it. I never got to this level with Linux.
I'm totally honest here: At home I primarily want to use the system, not fiddle around with it. And while Linux (mostly) works and does (most) of what I want, I am just not getting comfortable with it. If something breaks, I would need a significant time investment to fix the issue. This has caused me to stop experimenting with stuff in the fear that I break something, since i have had a couple of breaking issues in the first two or so months.

But let's see what Windows 12 brings. I now know for sure that Windows is definitely not the "be all, end all", even for gaming.
My "line in the sand" stays the same: Once i am forced to create a Microsoft Account to use Windows, I'm out.

[mapleLC]

I have to admit that i am about to cave.

I have now been running Linux for more than a year now, primarily for gaming. And gaming is *not* the reason why I will be switching back to Windows 10, maybe 11 later, soon.

At work, I need to use, administer and support Windows Clients and Servers. I have a lot of experience with it, that accumulated over the last 20 years.
Even after a year of using Linux now, I still not not really have an experience level with Linux that is even remotely close. Of course I haven't.
But this "living in two worlds" does not help me, especially now that Windows 11 is about to be introduced at work.

I have access to an Enterprise License that I am allowed to use at home. So I know I can use Windows without a forced account and no telemetry.

For me it was never a technical reason to try a switch to Linux. Windows always worked fine for me, and i know enough about it to fix virtually all problems with it. I never got to this level with Linux.
I'm totally honest here: At home I primarily want to use the system, not fiddle around with it. And while Linux (mostly) works and does (most) of what I want, I am just not getting comfortable with it. If something breaks, I would need a significant time investment to fix the issue. This has caused me to stop experimenting with stuff in the fear that I break something, since i have had a couple of breaking issues in the first two or so months.

But let's see what Windows 12 brings. I now know for sure that Windows is definitely not the "be all, end all", even for gaming.
My "line in the sand" stays the same: Once i am forced to create a Microsoft Account to use Windows, I'm out.

I'm not trying to poke the other side of the issue since I am quite disappointed in MSFT's behavior in general.  Apart from that Server 2022 is remarkably devoid of the bullshit unless its hidden away somewhere.  I was able to uninstall Edge with a single click. I might leave a machine here running it.  I do tend to agree you need a windows installation laying around kind of like you do spare change at this point.  Useless until you need it.

[beanflying]

So as it is around 18 months since Microsnot released their latest back to base info sender and operating system I decided to stick my toe in the water on a less critical PC as I know the software I need to use on it is fine with 11. I have been typically a very slow adopter of Windows making sure that any gross release issues and software support are well sorted before 'upgrading' (really not sure this has applied since XP and 7 days). For ongoing security and compatibility all of my boxes will eventually need to go to 11. 

Overall when you get rid of as much garbageware as possible and limit as much as is reasonable without going insane the back to base aspects yeah sure it works I guess and is stable

HOWEVER one thing that really give me the sh1ts is having my 4 year old 2400G based system told the CPU is 'unsupported' for 'reasons'. Why the larger industrial customers and bulk users of Windoze have not raised hell of this complete  is beyond me. Sure their needs to be a cutoff point but the majority of industry in non core computers lives and breathes 5-10+ year old boxes.

So I started an almost certainly pointless thread  https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/windows-11/how-much-longer-until-microsoft-gets-serious-and-adds-recent-cpu/m-p/3803393 I expect nothing to zero but you have to at least try and poke the slug.

There is of course the registry hack option and this fresh take on the best methods from one of the quirkiest Computer YouTubers popped up this morning 



Result for me is I don't hate it or dislike it anymore than 10 so I guess that is 'ok'.

[Ranayna]

HOWEVER one thing that really give me the sh1ts is having my 4 year old 2400G based system told the CPU is 'unsupported' for 'reasons'. Why the larger industrial customers and bulk users of Windoze have not raised hell of this complete  is beyond me. Sure their needs to be a cutoff point but the majority of industry in non core computers lives and breathes 5-10+ year old boxes.

as someone who works in a corporate IT i can explain why no hell is raised: The internal lifecycle is short enough, especially when you lease your client endpoint hardware like we do.
The lease period is three years, after which the devices get replaced.
Exceptions are very few, for some specialized endpoints that we have bought instead of leased and that are expensive to replace. But these get isolated once their OS is out of support anyway. And with these endpoints we always learn sooner or later why a short lifecycle is justified: Machines older than 5 years or so start developing more and more problems, requiring increasing support.

[SiliconWizard]

Windows 12 is "probably" going to integrate "AI" in a number of inescapable ways.
After the not-so-old hardware made obsolete by Win 11 (even if there are workarounds for now, albeit 100% unsupported). It was just the beginning.
Rumor & speculation is even trending towards maybe a requirement for CPUs or GPUs that integrate some kind of NPU. You know, for part of the AI thing that will be done "locally". Edge computing, you know!

No AI? No Windows.

[beanflying]

as someone who works in a corporate IT i can explain why no hell is raised: The internal lifecycle is short enough, especially when you lease your client endpoint hardware like we do.
...

While things have changed in IT in some industries there is still plenty of old clunkers that were bought and paid for running basic Network and Office use well after a three year time frame.

Unnecessary Forced obsolescence of hardware by another's 'upgrade' or EOL SUCKS period full stop.

My shiny new little ITX build can wait a while longer 

[Ranayna]

Of course there are a lot of old clunkers, especially in smaller businesses and workshops.
I remember the report of the C64 still being used in a small workshop a couple of years ago.

And as long as they can do their job, you can still repair them, and can isolate them from general access: These are fine.
But the second becomes more and more difficult and expensive for old machines, and the third is often not an option or very difficult.

As long as Windows 10 still gets updates, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it. As a small suggestion, if you are not using it, i would suggest disabling TPM in the BIOS. Then you should not be offered the Upgrade to Windows 11, and cannot accidentally misclick to install it.

[Tomshep]

Thank you. That is a very helpful snippet of advice.
I do my work on an old laptop with Win10. Every few days, despite many hours of trying to prevent it, Microsoft carries out a denial of service attack that can last for an hour and usually disabes something I want to use or enables something I don't.
As a good luddite, I have bought a Windows 7 installation disc and will soon attempt to travel back in time to a less troublesme system.

[james_s]

As long as Windows 10 still gets updates, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using it. As a small suggestion, if you are not using it, i would suggest disabling TPM in the BIOS. Then you should not be offered the Upgrade to Windows 11, and cannot accidentally misclick to install it.

IMO once it stops getting updates that's the time I'd consider actually using it. At that point it's a mature product and the endless and disruptive updates are the thing I most dislike about Win10. I've almost always found old unsupported software to work best, it just works.

[Infraviolet]

I can see your point james_s, for just about everything except the browser and internet facing parts of an OS.

[james_s]

I do keep my browser up to date, other than that I've never spent much time worrying about it, and the only infections I've ever had to deal with involved somebody installing something that came bundled with crapware. Or Microsoft's own "Get Windows 10" campaign, which was indistinguishable from malware.

[IDEngineer]

My "line in the sand" stays the same: Once i am forced to create a Microsoft Account to use Windows, I'm out.

They're darned near that today with new machines. My wife needed a new laptop so we picked up a nice Acer at Costco (they double the warranty and have a bombproof return policy). It has Win11 on it, and it's impossible to get it started without 1) a wireless network connection, and 2) an existing or newly created Microsoft Account.

Hating the latter as much as you apparently do, I used bogus credentials to get past those steps. I've now discovered that this locks you out of certain user authentication details once the machine is running... they simply will NOT expose certain user properties (example: your own username!) unless you first log in to your Microsoft Account. The machine is functional for now but I bet someday we'll run into some setting that is "protected" and at that point Costco's return policy may become very useful indeed.

Here's a question relating to #1 above: What if you are intentionally trying to create an airgapped, standalone machine? One that has never, and will never, be connected to the Internet? I can imagine quite a few scenarios where that would be true, many of them in industrial control situations where the machine is literally acting like an embedded controller and has no use for an external connection ever. Have such applications and users just been utterly abandoned?

This is an awful way to run a product and a company. If I thought about it for a while I suspect there's a way to invoke antitrust or another legal remedy, likely based on "market saturation" etc. I normally shun using government power to address problems but I'd make an exception here. This is bad business practice, unethical, and borderline immoral. We need to make an example of Microsoft so other industries - like automobiles and their "heated seat subscriptions" - are terrified to even look in the same direction.

[TimFox]

Before retirement, I was involved in installations for imaging containers and trucks at customs stations here and abroad.
Naturally, the customer demanded that the imaging system computers be isolated from the public network.
(I don't remember precisely, but I think the last one I worked on used Windows XP.)

[IDEngineer]

Exactly. Are such people now forced to use custom embedded systems? Auduino stealing market share from Microsoft?

[Messtechniker]

My "line in the sand" stays the same: Once i am forced to create a Microsoft Account to use Windows, I'm out.

They're darned near that today with new machines. My wife needed a new laptop so we picked up a nice Acer at Costco (they double the warranty and have a bombproof return policy). It has Win11 on it, and it's impossible to get it started without 1) a wireless network connection, and 2) an existing or newly created Microsoft Account.

Hating the latter as much as you apparently do, I used bogus credentials to get past those steps. I've now discovered that this locks you out of certain user authentication details once the machine is running... they simply will NOT expose certain user properties (example: your own username!) unless you first log in to your Microsoft Account. The machine is functional for now but I bet someday we'll run into some setting that is "protected" and at that point Costco's return policy may become very useful indeed.

Here's a question relating to #1 above: What if you are intentionally trying to create an airgapped, standalone machine? One that has never, and will never, be connected to the Internet? I can imagine quite a few scenarios where that would be true, many of them in industrial control situations where the machine is literally acting like an embedded controller and has no use for an external connection ever. Have such applications and users just been utterly abandoned?

Simply search for "microsoft account windows 11 skip". And Bob's your....

[TimFox]

That's an extremely popular topic on Google.

[Infraviolet]

I guess the best way to skip it would be the very first time you boot, go in to BIOS/UEFI, turn off the secureboot cr*p, and install a Linux distro from USB media.

Inevitably by murphy's law, there's almost certainly specific software you need that hasn't a Linux version available and where the Windows version won't run under Wine, but there's always virtual machines for that.

[coromonadalix]

you have tools and know how  to do that    just do google fuu ...

and for win 11 usabiliy   you have some startallisback  or others 3rd party  with very low costs purchase to help you a bit in that @@$2 of win 11

[Ranayna]

you have tools and know how  to do that    just do google fuu ...

and for win 11 usabiliy   you have some startallisback  or others 3rd party  with very low costs purchase to help you a bit in that @@$2 of win 11

That reminds me...
I need to evaluate the stability of these third party tools like Startallisback to be able to use it at work. I have heard several reports of instability and crashing explorer.exe.
I guess i really need to upgrade to 11 then 
At least Enterprise will not force a Microsoft Account.

[SiliconWizard]

Does anyone know whether Altium Designer runs with Wine?

Edit: Well, I tried, and it does not. It crashes.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Does anyone know whether Altium Designer runs with Wine?

Edit: Well, I tried, and it does not. It crashes.

Which Library (is crashing), do you know?

[Bryn]

I've only ever tried out Windows 11 with this online simulator, but I would not be confident on actually using the real thing, just based on the negativity I've been hearing about Windows 10 in the past (and with Win11 being just as bad as it, like forced updates).

I'm still happy with Windows 7 though.

[nigelwright7557]

I wouldn't. From what little experience I've had with it, it's like Windows 10 only worse, and 10 is already virtually unusable.

Windows 12 is due in 2024.
I try not to upgrade straight away until some of the bugs are out.

[Fredderic]

Windows 12 is due in 2024.

So we should all upgrade to Win11 in December, so we can ignore Win12 until Win13 comes out.  Or Win12b because some people still don't like 13's, or Win24 (or 28, or whatever it'll be) to just skip the whole 13 issue Samsung-style.

[beanflying]

I have 'upgraded' one out of my 4 boxes to Windoze11 as a test subject and apart from trying to do way more than I ask and force/intrude Microsnot products as 'solutions' into my use of it it works as well or as badly as W10 so  I really see zero advantage to it in daily use.

As all my gear is now 11 compliant and the software I need suits I am still likely to move them all to 11 late in the year and repeat the same late adopter process with the next one.

I do also have a dedicated Linux box and am playing with a stash of SBC's so in spite of my former heresy against the distro mess I am not hating it either as an experience.

[fluxcapacity]

I definitely have been enjoying some of the little things in windows 11, like, the photo viewer works a little better for resizing images.

Overall, 11 is fine, but, I didn't mind 10 either.

[DavidAlfa]

You won't be missed! (W11 chief officer)
He did what it did, maybe following higher staff directions, or he was simply terrible at it.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/18/23878609/microsoft-windows-panos-panay-leaving

[beanflying]

I definitely have been enjoying some of the little things in windows 11, like, the photo viewer works a little better for resizing images.

Overall, 11 is fine, but, I didn't mind 10 either.

Much better at EVERYTHING is https://www.irfanview.com/ you can run batch resizing and it is still a nice simple GUI to use.

[SiliconWizard]

You won't be missed! (W11 chief officer)

FTFY.