keyboard for programmers, any recommendations?

[Howardlong]

The keyboards that have odd key location and odd key spacing are those that do not follow an ISO layout. You'll see them called "60%", or the like (the numbers vary.) They often have fewer keys than ISO TKL keyboards, and are also much smaller. I do not like those either. A few people do swear by them though, such as the Happy Hacking keyboard ( https://happyhackingkb.com/ ), but I certainly do not.

Yes, that happens a lot on laptops too. I'm typing on a compact Logitech MK240 right now and it's one of the better ones for that size: it just happens to sit well on top of the yoke of my flight sim machine. It lacks a power button but does have a calculator hot key combo. I'd never use it for programming though. I had to re-label almost all the keys because the typeface was too small and it's a light red on white, so lacks contrast. No caps lock, num lock or scroll lock annunciators either. For battery powered wireless keyboards, I'm slightly surprised LCD annunciators haven't caught on... probably doubles the BOM cost though!

On the subject of annunciators, I did design a USB-C annunciator dongle specifically for this limitation on wireless keyboards. It includes volume up/down buttons too. It needs a slight physical redesign as it takes up too much space as a dongle, primarily dues to the tactile volume buttons. Most laptops don't have dedicated volume controls any more, so it was a feature I wanted. I might try touch instead to reduce size, but even touch pads need a certain size to work. 

[NivagSwerdna]

re:K70

Numbers and symbols are upside down on the top row.

I agree it is a bit weird how the keycaps are printed for those but in reality they are not upside down.  Press !1 and you get a 1 or shifted you get a !... so that's as per usual.

[rsjsouza]

Since I got a buckling spring keyboard many years ago, I did not suffer from pain on my elbow joints anymore. I ended up getting a keyboard from Unicomp as well; they had a NOS Model M in Brazilian layout. It is noisy, though.

[emece67]

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[peteru]

Kogan make a cheap, but surprisingly usable keyboard that I've been using for a while. It's not in the same league as my Amiga 2500UX keyboard made by Cherry, but then again, few keyboards are.



The Kogan keyboard is available with blue or brown keys. I have both and have a slight preference for the brown keys.

https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-tkl-rainbow-rgb-mechanical-keyboard-brown-switch/
https://www.kogan.com/au/buy/kogan-tkl-rainbow-rgb-mechanical-keyboard-blue-switch/

I wish the backlighting was just a uniform white or light blue light, rather than rainbow. However, the standard keyboard layout without a numpad is definitely a big win over most keyboards. Does not require any software or drivers and works with everything I tried, including Linux systems, embedded devices and TVs.

[SiliconWizard]

At this price, I'd be surprised if the keyswitches were genuine Cherry ones, although they use the "blue" and "brown" naming. Probably clones with a similar "feel".

Note that the whole keyboard construction plays a big role in both the tactile feel and noise. You can get pretty different results with the same keyswitches depending on keyboard construction (particularly materials, rigidity, weight...) So, two different keyboards using the Cherry brown KS for instance, which are pretty popular (my keyboard has them too), can feel pretty different.

[mc172]

I don't understand the hype around these horrible beige, noisy relics from the 80s, almost like you're not a proper "programmer" unless you use a keyboard from an old terminal. I've got a Dell KB4021 because I got it for nothing brand new and it types just fine. As an added bonus, it doesn't drive everyone bananas - especially the other half when she's trying to sleep.

I wonder if those that like the Model M also like the keys on old HP gear like the 3585A?

[David Hess]

Well, all decent "TKL" keyboards just have the exact same layout (ISO layout), except no numeric keypad. All other keys are exactly at the same location. So there is absolutely no learning curve. (Except getting used to entering numbers with the upper row instead of numeric keypad. Which turns out to be more comfortable, except maybe when you're entering a large quantity of numbers in a spreadsheet, for instance, that's why I have a separate keypad (but even that I can do without now...)

The keyboards that have odd key location and odd key spacing are those that do not follow an ISO layout. You'll see them called "60%", or the like (the numbers vary.) They often have fewer keys than ISO TKL keyboards, and are also much smaller. I do not like those either. A few people do swear by them though, such as the Happy Hacking keyboard ( https://happyhackingkb.com/ ), but I certainly do not.

For a while a couple years ago they were pushing a slightly different layout with 2 instead of 3 columns of of keys between the alpha keys and keypad to distinguish "consumer" from "business" keyboards.  All of the retail stores I visited had only these consumer keyboards and I had to order online to get a "business" one with the standard layout.

I don't understand the hype around these horrible beige, noisy relics from the 80s, almost like you're not a proper "programmer" unless you use a keyboard from an old terminal. I've got a Dell KB4021 because I got it for nothing brand new and it types just fine. As an added bonus, it doesn't drive everyone bananas - especially the other half when she's trying to sleep.

I lot of research from IBM backed up the human factors engineering of the Selectric keyboard, and this carried over to the feel of the IBM PC keyboard.  Apple borrowed some of it for the Apple III keyboard intended for business but previous to this computer keyboards where either toy chiclet keyboards, similar to the current preferred style of trash, or terminal style keyboards.  Later, lower cost rubber dome keyboards replaced mechanical ones.

There is no requirement for mechanical keyboards with strong tactile feedback to be noisy.  If you want a silent mechanical keyboard with strong tactile feedback, they are readily available now.

The joke is the current style of chiclet keyboards which evolved from thin laptop keyboards.  If a laptop is thin enough, then the key travel height must be compromised which leads to the chiclet design with minimum travel and a flat instead of cupped keytop.  But desktop keyboards would make them seem as bad as they are, so those have been replaced with chiclet keyboards also.  I suspect the only reason this has been successful is that most of the customers these systems are intended for do not actually do significant work that requires a good keyboard.

If you do not see a problem with modern keyboards, then I suspect either you are not typing much, or you never used a well designed keyboard.

The same applies to screens.  Glossy handheld displays have replaced matte anti-glare laptop and desktop displays even when touch screen capability is not present.  I have a good laugh every time someone reviews a new stylish test instrument and keeps having trouble with the camera focusing on the reflection in the display.  I do not know how the people with laptops get by in uncontrolled environments where a laptop is the only choice.

[peteru]

At this price, I'd be surprised if the keyswitches were genuine Cherry ones, although they use the "blue" and "brown" naming. Probably clones with a similar "feel".

They are Outemu switches. The switches are soldered and the keycaps are Cherry MX compatible. LED backlighting is fixed colours (six colours), but variable brightness (including off) and you can select from various preset animation effects or program your own key LED patterns. The LED for each key is individually addressable and some, like caps lock, also double up as state indicators.

Note that the whole keyboard construction plays a big role in both the tactile feel and noise. You can get pretty different results with the same keyswitches depending on keyboard construction (particularly materials, rigidity, weight...) So, two different keyboards using the Cherry brown KS for instance, which are pretty popular (my keyboard has them too), can feel pretty different.

The construction on these particular keyboard models is pretty good. Solid metal chasis with no flex or ringing, enough weight to stay in place, non slip rubber pads on the bottom, braided USB cable and two shot keycaps that are not too loose or wiggly and have just enough curvature to guide your fingertips towards the centre of each key. The key switch stems on the blue Outemu switches are just a tiny bit more rattly than the brown switches, which gives the keys a bit more play. I found that factory standard both keyboards didn't have particularly smooth key travel, but after lubricating the keyswitches, they are both performing well.

Again, these are inexpensive mechanical keyboards, but given that they can be had at a price lower than much worse keyboards, they are a good deal. If you are willing to invest a bit of time to lubricate the keyswitches, they compare well with keyboards 5x the price. I managed to get the brown key model for AUD$20 delivered and a few weeks later I got the blue key model for AUD$28 delivered. They seem to get discounted regularly.

They are by no means "ideal" or high end keyboards, but at the same time they are not cheap, nasty and unusable rubbish either.

Going back to the original poster, these keyboards are good programming keyboards, with solid construction, mechanical switches, standard layout (but without the annoying number pad) and as affordable as rubber dome keyboards.

[Ian.M]

Backlighting you cant change the color of is just a gamers gimmik.  I can see some utility in being able to select the backlight color on a per key basis if you can auto-load different color sets for different applications, but I certainly wouldn't pay much extra for the feature.

I do not understand some peoples preferences  - but each to their own and at least the compact chiclet keyboard afinciados will leave more previously owned full size full travel keyboards for the rest of us!

Otherwise, not only are most modern keyboards absolutely crap as discussed above, but they also generally aren't particularly reliable.   My main machines have 25 year old Fujitsu / ICL full sized PS/2 keyboards on them, model KPQ-E99AC-14 to be specific, which is a full travel (IIRC membrane) keyboard, with a buckling elastomer cup under the properly dished key cap, providing a low noise 'click' action, and I believe an elastomer dome under the separate actuator plunger, which cushions the keystroke as it bottoms out.   They aren't IBM model M's, but they don't keep the neighbours awake either.  I've been using them for over twenty years and in that time have gone through a succession of newer budget USB keyboards on my other machines.  Even with far lighter use , they just don't last . . .

[SiliconWizard]

I don't understand the hype around these horrible beige, noisy relics from the 80s, almost like you're not a proper "programmer" unless you use a keyboard from an old terminal. I've got a Dell KB4021 because I got it for nothing brand new and it types just fine. As an added bonus, it doesn't drive everyone bananas - especially the other half when she's trying to sleep.

I lot of research from IBM backed up the human factors engineering of the Selectric keyboard, and this carried over to the feel of the IBM PC keyboard.

That's the point. Those were excellent keyboards, because they were made to be close in feel to keyboards for typewriters - which obviously had been refined over the years to be the most comfortable - and accurate - to type on for heavy users. They were designed for the user. As opposed to all those modern, Apple-like chiclet keyboard that are primarily designed for looks. Most are just horrible. And that's not just the mechanism. The "higher-end" keyboards have scissor keyswitches (same as on decent laptop keyboards), which can be pretty good, especially if you prefer shorter key travel. But the keycaps, usually all flat à la Apple, are absolutely atrocious from any ergonomic POV. Keycaps were curved for a good reason.

But yes, someone not seeing how great those keyboards were has probably never typed on them. Or is just so used to modern keyboards that they would find the feel "bizarre".

Glossy screens are a good example too. They are clearly designed just for the looks while their usability is awful due to reflections.

[David Hess]

The "higher-end" keyboards have scissor keyswitches (same as on decent laptop keyboards), which can be pretty good, especially if you prefer shorter key travel. But the keycaps, usually all flat à la Apple, are absolutely atrocious from any ergonomic POV.

Shorter travel and flatter kecaps are required to minimize profile which is the overriding requirement for modern stylish laptops.  Expansion ports, larger batteries, and high heat dissipation capability had to go also.

Keycaps were curved for a good reason.

The advantage of a curved keycap is that the finger can self center without touching the edge of adjacent keycaps.  Even before keyboards used sculpted layouts, which never became ubiquitous, they used curved keycaps.

Glossy screens are a good example too. They are clearly designed just for the looks while their usability is awful due to reflections.

I do not know if anybody else noticed but after Apple's new glossy white styling and glossy glare filled screens became popular is when we had movies copy that aesthetic with the new Star Trek movies being the best example I recognized.  Another one I noticed is that popular eyeglass styles converged on narrow but wide about a generation after the high definition aspect ratio became popular; it took that long for the generation who grew up with wide format high definition it to start wearing glasses.

Portable devices with touch screens have little choice but to use glossy screens and this has carried over to laptop and desktop computers even when they lack touch screen capability and would be much better off with anti-glare screens.  A majority of people who now buy these devices are used to thumb typing on their smartphone, so hunt and peck typing on a horrid keyboard is not so bad for them.

[PlainName]

Coming late to this (as usual), I just returned a Logitech MX Keys keyboard as unsuitable. I wanted a wireless affair, backlighting would be cool (the glare from my monitor light obscures keys that aren't backlit), full size, good feedback. The Logitech seemed to fit the bill, I lurrve the MX mice, and just about every review was positive.

But now it is gone because:

* keys were flat. Yes, the entire thing is on a slope but the keycaps are all the same without any profiling.

* Lack of movement. Less than I am used to, and the tactile feedback was OK, but it just didn't feel right.

* Lack of separation between keys. Sure, there is a gap and the keys are dished but, perhaps because of the lack of travel, it was hard to tell when your finger was just out of bound and therefore the hand placement automatically corrected. Worst case was not feeling I was stabbing the right key when using the number pad (more on this in a mo).

It was a very nice keyboard indeed, and I was sorely tempted to keep it anyway, except it costs far too much. So now I am back to my trusty Dell SK-8115:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003CO171C

I realise there is a certain amount of muscle memory involved, but I think I gave the MX a fair trial. In typing this I haven't once looked at the keyboard - even when I press the wrong key I know where the right one should be and there it is. The number pad, as noted above, is the worst case example that turned me off. I never use it as a number pad, only as cursor keys. Yes, there is a set to the left, but I never use those for anything! Reason being, the number pad has the 5 in the middle and the + - * / all around, and the enter key next to it. Just a better cursor pad than the cursor keys, IME.

The SK8115 is pretty damn good. A bit rattly, I suppose, but I can type pretty fast and error free with it. Coding with the MX was just a slow pain. So my plan now is to convert a spare SK8115 to wireless somehow. One option is to embed a bluetooth doobrey, but I can see battery life being annoying. Another is to gut a sacrificial wireless keyboard and wire the clever parts to the Dell keys. Could end up a mess.

Just today, though, I noticed there is a TOM680 DIY keyboard. That kind of thing might work, but I expect it would be very costly and I couldn't spot a 108-key option. Anyone know of a reasonable source for that?

[Raj]

Coming late to this (as usual), I just returned a Logitech MX Keys keyboard as unsuitable. I wanted a wireless affair, backlighting would be cool (the glare from my monitor light obscures keys that aren't backlit), full size, good feedback. The Logitech seemed to fit the bill, I lurrve the MX mice, and just about every review was positive.

But now it is gone because:

* keys were flat. Yes, the entire thing is on a slope but the keycaps are all the same without any profiling.

* Lack of movement. Less than I am used to, and the tactile feedback was OK, but it just didn't feel right.

* Lack of separation between keys. Sure, there is a gap and the keys are dished but, perhaps because of the lack of travel, it was hard to tell when your finger was just out of bound and therefore the hand placement automatically corrected. Worst case was not feeling I was stabbing the right key when using the number pad (more on this in a mo).

It was a very nice keyboard indeed, and I was sorely tempted to keep it anyway, except it costs far too much. So now I am back to my trusty Dell SK-8115:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003CO171C

I realise there is a certain amount of muscle memory involved, but I think I gave the MX a fair trial. In typing this I haven't once looked at the keyboard - even when I press the wrong key I know where the right one should be and there it is. The number pad, as noted above, is the worst case example that turned me off. I never use it as a number pad, only as cursor keys. Yes, there is a set to the left, but I never use those for anything! Reason being, the number pad has the 5 in the middle and the + - * / all around, and the enter key next to it. Just a better cursor pad than the cursor keys, IME.

The SK8115 is pretty damn good. A bit rattly, I suppose, but I can type pretty fast and error free with it. Coding with the MX was just a slow pain. So my plan now is to convert a spare SK8115 to wireless somehow. One option is to embed a bluetooth doobrey, but I can see battery life being annoying. Another is to gut a sacrificial wireless keyboard and wire the clever parts to the Dell keys. Could end up a mess.

Just today, though, I noticed there is a TOM680 DIY keyboard. That kind of thing might work, but I expect it would be very costly and I couldn't spot a 108-key option. Anyone know of a reasonable source for that?

My school had sk8115. Hated it. it's sharp and digs into your wrist. Logitech mx looks like seenda keyboards which wasn't comfortable either.
tom 680 looks good, I don't think gateron switches would cost a lot.
Btw, apparently Adafruit is selling keyboard kits now.

[PlainName]

it's sharp and digs into your wrist.

Ah, perhaps you have the version with a wrist rest. I hate those and partly chose the Sk8115 because it didn't come with one (and had a minimal footprint for the layout). My wrists never get close than 2" to it.

apparently Adafruit is selling keyboard kits now

Thanks. Had a look but they don't seem to be doing an actual keyboard, just keys and case bottoms. Do you have a link to either a full keyboard or the gubbins to achieve one? Seems to me the sticking point would be the PCB - not rocket science but big enough to be a pain to manufacture in one-off quantities (as a DIY project).

[PlainName]

Found this one:

https://mechboards.co.uk/shop/keyboards/vortex-tab-90m/

Seems designed for me! No cursor keys but includes the keypad and associated keys.

But... £170...

[Howardlong]

That non-standard layout would drive me nuts!

[PlainName]

It's essentially the layout I use (except cursor keys rather than numbers) without the wasted space in the middle. I imagine it would take a week or so to get used to not moving my hand so much. Biggest downside might well be really really liking it and then being locked in to a one-off item that's not going to last forever.

[rsjsouza]

That non-standard layout would drive me nuts!

Eaxh to its own, but I agree with you: I need my PgUp/PgDn, Ins/Del, Home/End buttons aligned in two rows of three keys. Laptop keyboards already drive me nuts as they are (Except the Dell Latitude E6520 that I used at work; that was a very good keyboard)

[AaronLee]

If you like the IBM Model M keyboards, you'll likely love the Model F. Problem is they're ancient and the layout on many isn't standard. However, there's a guy who made an excellent reproduction of the Model F. Take a look at https://www.modelfkeyboards.com to see what he's done. I bought one, and love the feel of the keys much better than my 35 year old Model M keyboard. However there aren't any actual F1 - F12 keys, rather they're mapped by default to the number key row, in combination with the Function modifier. You can totally customize the keyboard to any layout you want. It's not cheap, but in today's dollars, it's still considerably cheaper than the original IBM Model F. He sells parts for the keyboard as well, so if you buy some extras, it'll likely last you for many decades. The keyboard is really built like a tank (and as heavy as one), and I don't expect to ever wear out.

Anyways, all keyboards I've seen come with layouts not optimized for programming. With a totally customizable keyboard though, you can add a layer for the symbols you use for the language you program in. So, for instance, the various braces/parentheses, and operator symbols which are often a stretch for your fingers on a standard keyboard, and may need to be shifted to access, can all be placed in the home row or just up/down from the home row, in easy to reach places. It takes a bit of time to overcome your muscle memory of automatically hitting the keys in those old positions, but once you get used to it, there's a lot less physical stress in coding all day. And if you want, you can customize the keyboard to a Dvorak, Colemak, or keep it as the standard QWERTY layout for the alphabet.

I had one of the original IBM PC's when they first came out, then the XT, then the AT, all with the Model F keyboards, so perhaps I'm biased. But I think there never was a better feeling keyboard switch, with the possible exception of it's predecessor, the beam spring keyboards. Nor was there ever a more durable mass marketed keyboard.

I also have a modern Unicomp Model M keyboard, but it isn't even as nice as the original IBM Model M, though close, and certainly not as nice as the original IBM Model F or the new Model F reproductions.

[PlainName]

Take a look at https://www.modelfkeyboards.com

They look good, but unfortunately not my style. Also they weigh quite a bit, which I'm not keen on. The recent MX Keys was heavy and felt very solid. Really nice if you like that kind of thing, but I've got used to moving the SK8115 with my pinky finger to make fine (and coarse) adjustments to position. The keyboard goes where my fingers expect to find it rather than vice versa

[brucehoult]

Anyways, all keyboards I've seen come with layouts not optimized for programming. With a totally customizable keyboard though, you can add a layer for the symbols you use for the language you program in. So, for instance, the various braces/parentheses, and operator symbols which are often a stretch for your fingers on a standard keyboard, and may need to be shifted to access, can all be placed in the home row or just up/down from the home row, in easy to reach places.

I've never found typing speed to be any kind of limitation on my programming speed. Maybe I just think slower than average, I dunno.

The very great disadvantage of getting used to a customised layout is you can't use anyone else's computer. You'd have to carry your own KB with you everywhere you go.

[AaronLee]

Anyways, all keyboards I've seen come with layouts not optimized for programming. With a totally customizable keyboard though, you can add a layer for the symbols you use for the language you program in. So, for instance, the various braces/parentheses, and operator symbols which are often a stretch for your fingers on a standard keyboard, and may need to be shifted to access, can all be placed in the home row or just up/down from the home row, in easy to reach places.

I've never found typing speed to be any kind of limitation on my programming speed. Maybe I just think slower than average, I dunno.

The very great disadvantage of getting used to a customised layout is you can't use anyone else's computer. You'd have to carry your own KB with you everywhere you go.

I'm a touch-typist, and I'd guess type fairly fast compared to the average programmer. Even if the layout is the same, going to another keyboard that has slightly different key spacing means my error rate skyrockets. So if I'm going someplace and will just use a different computer for a very limited amount of time, I'll live with it, even if the layout is totally different. Even with my new muscle memory for my custom layout, I still remember well the old standard layout. If I'll be using another computer for any length of time, I'll likely take my keyboard there, despite the fact that it's probably the heaviest modern keyboard there is. For my office and home, I have the same keyboard in both places. That's my primary concern, but for some who go out and use other computers a lot, it might be a real issue. If I was in that situation, I guess I'd get the smaller version of the keyboard I have, and in a reduced weight case, and find an extra heavy duty bag and live with lugging it around. It really means a lot to me to have the exact same layout plus spacing, plus key feel in any keyboard I'm using for an extended period of time. Anything else will slow me down considerably. I lived for decades with just a standard keyboard, but after using a fully customizable keyboard for less than a year, I don't see myself ever going back.

By the way, the modern Model F that I have has a USB port, rather than the old PS/2 style interface of most Model M and F's, meaning it's usable with any modern PC without any adapter. The only thing about using it in an office is that it's quite noisy, and could be bothersome to office workers in some environments. There are ways of quieting the keyboard down though.

[Howardlong]

It took me quite some time (years) to wean myself from a model F style layout to the full model M layout 30 odd years ago: I kept the num pad in cursor mode default for a long time on the model Ms.

[PlainName]

Does that mean you use it as a numpad now? If so, what caused you to change?