Laptop Choice ?

[Lindley]

Hi,

A family member wanted some help in choosing a new laptop and we came up with these two machines which should meet their performance / budget.

As a self build desktop user can advise on specs but no experience of the laptop brands which are Lenovo and HP.

Any thoughts on which is the better ?  Just looking at ytubes of both having the covers removed the Lenovo seems better made to our eyes, though looks can be deceiving.





Another faster Lenovo at a similar price to the above 2

[nctnico]

If the laptop is for serious use, I'd buy one from the 'for business' section. Yes, these seem to offer less bang for the buck but these typically use better components and are better built.

[NiHaoMike]

Most important in my opinion is to make sure the RAM can be upgraded. 8GB is pretty low and is easily outgrown.

[Mechatrommer]

my quick-foo tells me the Lenovo V15 G2 is clear winner, assuming its within your budget. mainly because 6 cores Ryzen 5 5500U. even if its a little more expensive than the rest. we cant upgrade CPU later so we must aim high in the first place. RAM/NVME/HDD can be added later. if its me i'll buy that Lenovo V15 G2 + additional 8GB RAM (ask the seller to install for you) for total 16GB RAM. for normal human, the 256GB SSD is enough. in case you want to become abnormal, you can upgrade to 512GB NVME + X TB HDD later on anyway.

https://www.lenovo.com/my/en/laptops/lenovo/lenovo-v-series/Lenovo-V15-Gen-2-15%E2%80%9D-AMD/p/XXYTXVNA500?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u

[coppice]

If the laptop is for serious use, I'd buy one from the 'for business' section. Yes, these seem to offer less bang for the buck but these typically use better components and are better built.

When you see "for business" in a laptop description, read it as "we think you can carry this one around in your bags, on various forms of transport, for at least the warranty period, without trouble". If its not described as "for business" assume it will be fine when used at home, but probably won't stand up to endless carrying.

[Lindley]

They all come with 8gb of ram soldered in, but with a free slot  for another 8gb.

Point taken, but doubt they could get  a business class one as their budget is limited.

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

[Mechatrommer]

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

the website said we can add sata HDD in them for additional storage, so there should be empty slots for HDD (and RAM). usually it will be 2.5" HDD type as i've done few times. this is the beauty of non-fruit brand gadgets, we can buy budget spec unit and upgrade them to the max ourself on par with business/fruit grade spec. we just need to learn not to handle them carelessly like we handle Fluke DMM, such as dropping, throwing randomly on the bed, or do stupid thing such as spinning them on our middle finger just to entertain few chickens on the road.

[brucehoult]

Point taken, but doubt they could get  a business class one as their budget is limited.

It's cheaper to buy one good quality one than to buy a second (or third) cheap one because the first one broke.

I think the Lenovo laptops are all built pretty well, but I would never get a budget HP.

[brucehoult]

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

the website said we can add sata HDD in them for additional storage, so there should be empty slots for HDD (and RAM). usually it will be 2.5" HDD type as i've done few times. this is the beauty of non-fruit brand gadgets, we can buy budget spec unit and upgrade them to the max ourself on par with business/fruit grade spec.

You can upgrade specs but you can't upgrade quality.

Having things such as CPU or RAM or SSD in mechanical sockets so you can replace them is IN ITSELF a cause of bad reliability in a device subjected to being routinely moved around.

[rob77]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

[NiHaoMike]

Having things such as CPU or RAM or SSD in mechanical sockets so you can replace them is IN ITSELF a cause of bad reliability in a device subjected to being routinely moved around.

I have only had the SATA connector fail in one laptop, I desoldered it and permanently soldered in an old 128GB SSD so it can still be used for something. I suspect the reason for the failure has to do with the SSD being changed often as it's a test machine, in normal use the SSD is rarely changed.

[David Hess]

Most important in my opinion is to make sure the RAM can be upgraded. 8GB is pretty low and is easily outgrown.

I agree.  My short list of laptops all have 1 or preferably 2 SO-DIMM slots.  Lack of memory will be the first thing which renders a laptop obsolete.

I would also prefer one with a replaceable battery but apparently those are long gone.

[nctnico]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

I'd be surprised if you can't install even more memory. The Dell laptop (from the 'for business section') I bought a decade ago, happily accepts 16GB of memory. I'd say 64GB should'nt have to be a problem in a modern day laptop. Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

[brucehoult]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

OP didn't say anything at all about the proposed usage for this laptop, which makes the whole thread a blind shot in the dark.

[nctnico]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

That is just an example. David Hess makes a good point in saying that lack of ability to expand the memory can render a laptop obsolete. If my current laptop didn't support 16GB, I would have needed to buy a new one several years ago.

[brucehoult]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

That is just an example. David Hess makes a good point in saying that lack of ability to expand the memory can render a laptop obsolete. If my current laptop didn't support 16GB, I would have needed to buy a new one several years ago.

What's so special about 16 GB? Why can't the same argument -- with nothing said about specific use-cases -- be made about the necessity of 32 GB or 64 GB instead?


I've got a 2011 MacBook Air with 4 GB RAM that still absolutely perfectly does the job I bought it for: email, web browsing, video playback, editing code when I'm travelling or just want to sit out on the deck and ssh into the below machine. I don't recall ever having a situation where it starting lagging because of lack of RAM (or any other reason). For most people who can't name SPECIFIC things they need more for, that is probably still fine, and 8 GB for sure is.

My home server/workstation is an original model 32 core ThreadRipper with 128 GB RAM that frequently gets pushed to the limit by large software builds, and, as you mention, a few VMs.

Naming some arbitrary number and saying "Everyone should get that, and no less" is just silly.

[GigaJoe]

seems all 3 equally / approximately the same.
can be 1-2y old used are alternative to a new one, it can be better spec with the same price bracket ..
keyboard can be replaced to a new one ; fan heatsink cleaned, memory added, wifi module upgraded, brand new again 

[NiHaoMike]

8GB easily runs out if you open a lot of browser tabs. 16GB is plenty for now unless you're really crazy with tabs.

[brucehoult]

8GB easily runs out if you open a lot of browser tabs. 16GB is plenty for now unless you're really crazy with tabs.

Define "really crazy".

Depends on the browser. Depends on the OS. Depends on the pages!

[Mechatrommer]

the website i linked earlier said it can go up to 16gb ram, unless if they lied, confirm with shop before buying, easy job.. my normal web browse few tabs and cad and eda can easily go up more than 8gb. 16gb is comfort level.. 'quality' is a marketing stunt, fruit brand unit wont survive 1 floor level drop either... connections and loose objects in laptop are held with screws and snap clips, you have to be fucked up to make those loose. As i said, learn not to fuck up, if you are not aiming tank armored laptop. Anyway, i only recommend laptop to families when they need me, i myself wont touch them with barge pole for my own work..

[Berni]

I bought two similar Lenovos for coworkers from a local place that sells refurbished laptops cheep. They do appear pretty well made while also being pretty thin and light. Not sure how good the cooling is but those were not very powerful machines so likely didn't need much cooling in the first place.

You definitely want something that can take at least 12 or 16 GB of RAM. Mostly because websites have become such a script bloated shitshow that web browsers need ever more resources to render them(especially when you got 100 tabs of them). Especially since you might want the laptop to still work well after 5 years.

You also loose some RAM to the integrated graphics. Especially since you typically want integrated graphics on a more content consumption oriented machine. They are more power efficient and still have enough horsepower for typical 3D CAD work and light gaming.

My own laptop is a from BestWare https://bestware.com/en/laptop (Got a XMG Core 17 for about 1000€)
They are a small German computer manufacturer that makes powerful laptops (XMG is gaming, Schenker is business/workstation) at a reasonable price. They are high quality and made to order (spec out the components you want in it, even down to the brand of RAM), they get you a keyboard in almost any language you want, no windows license if you don't need one...etc They have excellent support, they will even ship you any spare part you want at normal prices, no need to send the whole laptop to a service center. Much friendlier in general to deal with due to being a smaller company. Tho don't think they make much lower end stuff in the 600€ price bracket.

[nightfire]

The HP notebook is considered according to nomenclature as "entry level business", meaning that the 2xx series is at the very bottom of the pack. The 400 series is in this regard somewhat better, so a glance for them would also worth looking for.
At work, I have some generations of the 650 series in service (the series specced a bit higher than the 200/400, also 15" screen, and the oldest systems are in use for approx 6 years now).
Depending on what the system shall do, 8GB are currently sufficient and will probably be ok for the next years, but as Windows 11 is around the corner with some higher hardware demands as Win 10, it is good to have some RAM slot available for RAM upgrades.

[rob77]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

I'd be surprised if you can't install even more memory. The Dell laptop (from the 'for business section') I bought a decade ago, happily accepts 16GB of memory. I'd say 64GB should'nt have to be a problem in a modern day laptop. Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

depends on the CPU, many low cost CPUs (celeron, pentium) simply doesn't support more than 8G per memory channel and usually the cheap laptops with those cheap CPUs have only one memory channel. so it's the best to avoid those.
for the big CPUs (core, ryzen) you can have 16 or 32G per memory channel, no problem.

[wilfred]

Get the one that comes with Win11 out of the box. If the family member is an undemanding user watching videos and emails, social media and so on,  it doesn't matter  really. They're pretty much the same.

If one has a noticeably better looking screen then get that one and if it has a vacant drive bay to expand with a SATA SSD then that will get past 256GB as a limit for internal storage.

I'd go for the 5500U one because it is faster.

[brucehoult]

the website i linked earlier said it can go up to 16gb ram, unless if they lied, confirm with shop before buying, easy job..

Ability to expand is later is useful, but I wouldn't pay a lot for it. In 30 years of owning laptops (first was a PowerBook 100), the vast majority of which were upgradable, I can't recall ever actually upgrading one more than a week or two after initial purchase (i.e. planned to buy cheap 3rd party RAM or disk from the outset). Usually by the time any pinch is felt there is something with vastly better CPU etc anyway.

my normal web browse few tabs and cad and eda can easily go up more than 8gb.

When OP says "A family member wanted some help" without further explanation, CAD and EDA is not the first thing that crosses my mind!

'quality' is a marketing stunt, fruit brand unit wont survive 1 floor level drop either...

What I know is people who buy HP and Asus and those kinds of laptops seldom use them for long. I have *never* had a fruit-brand laptop fail. Sadly, I sold the PowerBook 100 and Duo 230 when I upgraded them. But I still have a 1998 G3/266 and (battery aside) it works as well as the day I bought it. I also, sadly, don't have the 17" G4 as I sold it when I got a Core 2 Duo. However that still works. As does the 2011 quad core i7 17".

A couple of years ago my 80 year old father complained that some old photos (specifically a range of serial numbers, but they were from a specific overseas trip) had gone missing from his iPhoto database, and could I see if I could find them. He was indeed correct, they were not there on his Retina MBP.  I pulled his previous 2011 17" i7 (same as mine, but he's retired his) off the shelf and looked. The same photos were missing there too. I pulled the Core 2 Duo off the shelf. Same deal.  So I grabbed the 2000 500 MHz G3 "Pismo". Aha! The iPhoto database stopped at the exact photo serial number before the missing range. I think he upgraded computer after returning from the overseas trip and somehow simply lost or overwrote the memory card containing the missing photos and never actually had them on his computer, ever.

But, again, the point is that every single obsoleted and replaced machine booted up and worked perfectly. Even the 20 year old one.

If anything, the quality is perhaps excessive. Not only mechanically. They also seem to not have capacitors that go bad, or similar.

[Psi]

Maybe check out Framework.
http://frame.work

At least then you know it's something that can be fixed easily if it breaks.
(All parts available to order)

I always try to support them whenever I can.

[Mechatrommer]

When OP says "A family member wanted some help" without further explanation, CAD and EDA is not the first thing that crosses my mind!

family member can be broad range, the worst is a careless person who opened 100 tabs browser watching video without a rat arse knowledge about what a computer resources are., they only know either it works or its broken. when they think it broke, they will send it to the nearest techies they know. my kids are briliant! they installed an auto click app that opened whatever icon under the mouse, that caused me pretty much headache to restore the PC's functioning. so if you want to define what a "family member" is, then it will be endless debate. i can pretty much sure i can hit 8GB ram by opening unreasonably many browser tabs like some people are happy doing without the eda and cad.

What I know is people who buy HP and Asus and those kinds of laptops seldom use them for long.

here the problem is usually the software/OS bloated, not the hardware. if its hardware, its because they dont know how to upgrade (or not aware it can be done) the bottlenecked 4GB RAM they purchased built-in since day one with budget tight in mind.

I have *never* had a fruit-brand laptop fail.

there is recent thread about broken LCD/GPU, only 8 years old laptop, i wanted to chime in but then i think its not worth my time and its not going to be helpfull anyway. few months ago a family member came to me with her broken macbook that cannot turned on with some led/beep sequence. maybe 5-10 years old device from the look of it. she was clever enough to google youtube about reflowing and asked me to do it since she doesnt have the skill and equipments. few bad experiences during the repair attempt starting from the damned screws holding the casing. reflowing with hot air doesnt fix it so i returned it to her asking her to find the nearest fruit service center. i never fix other laptop with such intense skill requirement. the few that i fixed are usually disintegrated plastic casing with missing keyboard pads of 10 years old or more of unknown china brand from government subsidized/donation units. but then i have to say, i hate fixing laptops, regardless of any brand. dont tell me one of the key in your keyboard is not functioning because you dropped a coffe or a pin underneath, i hate esp that, the laptop keyboard.

[coppice]

Ability to expand is later is useful, but I wouldn't pay a lot for it. In 30 years of owning laptops (first was a PowerBook 100), the vast majority of which were upgradable, I can't recall ever actually upgrading one more than a week or two after initial purchase (i.e. planned to buy cheap 3rd party RAM or disk from the outset). Usually by the time any pinch is felt there is something with vastly better CPU etc anyway.

In notebooks I have:

• Added RAM
• Replace a hard disk with a bigger one
• Replaced a hard disk with an SSD for improved speed and robustness

I think these are the types of things quite a few people want to do. The only item there which requires any special qualities is the RAM. Some machines make RAM expansion difficult or impossible. Check for a spare RAM slot, and you should be good to go.

[Helio_Centra]

ThinkPad T or older P series were the only good laptops ever made. But if you want something modern, probably Framework.

[fourfathom]

Any advice for me?  I am currently using the cheapest, lightest laptop I could find a few years ago (HP Stream) and it only has 4G ram and 30G disk.  I have a big micro-SD in the reader slot to hold documents, etc.  I knew the computer had too little of everything when I bought it, but it was something I could throw in my backpack when traveling and I just use it for web and email, and little else.  It did that job for a while...  I'm definitely not trying to do CAD on this thing. 

Now Windows keeps trying (and failing) to update it and, even a little program-bloat causes problems.  So it's time for a new one.  That's fine with me, I was expecting this -- I wanted to see how cheaply I could go, but that experiment is over.

So what's the recommendation for me?  RAM: 16G, SSD: 256G-1T?  I don't need blazing speed or fancy graphics, and don't plan to open the thing up to ever add anything.  It does need to be small-ish, and lightweight, and somewhat rugged -- this will be my airplane-travel, non-work laptop.  I would like a useful number of USB ports so I don't have to carry a hub with me.  No RJ-45 ethernet port is needed, I can use WiFi.  Sub-$1000 (US) would be nice, but I am flexible.  I have a bigger, much better, laptop I sometimes use, but don't like lugging it around.

Brand and model recommendations would be appreciated!

[Ed.Kloonk]

I don't need blazing speed or fancy graphics, and don't plan to open the thing up to ever add anything. 

Brand and model recommendations would be appreciated!

Not sure if this is still the case but the advice I used to give for this type of upgrade is just make sure it doesn't have any hardware that is known not to play nice with Linux.

Even if you don't use Linux now, you might someday want to sell or off load the laptop. Nobody wants an old windows laptop. As you've found out.

[fourfathom]

I don't need blazing speed or fancy graphics, and don't plan to open the thing up to ever add anything. 

Brand and model recommendations would be appreciated!

Not sure if this is still the case but the advice I used to give for this type of upgrade is just make sure it doesn't have any hardware that is known not to play nice with Linux.

Even if you don't use Linux now, you might someday want to sell or off load the laptop. Nobody wants an old windows laptop. As you've found out.

I'm not worried about resale, or even re-useability so much.  Although I have wiped a few of my old laptops and run Linux on them, it's not a priority.  Right now I'm just looking for an appliance, nothing more...

[Mechatrommer]

if all you do is browsing while travelling, imho your old HP is still perfectly fine, you just need to wipe it and install clean windows (the older the better, or else the linux the lightweight OS since the beginning) my key to "doing more with lesser laptop" is to keep OS installer around (locally saved) so i can do clean install anytime myself. or else, backup the OS with backupper tool somewhere else while it still clean so quick restore can be done later. sometime non-fruit laptop comes from shop already bloated or with some annoying brand specific settings, so knowledge to do diy clean install is important. older windows need antivirus imho to ensure data security. newer windows with 4GB ram wont cut it anymore, 8GB is minimum, but since its normal in every newer laptop today, i think you can buy anything budget range with known name brand (good reviews in the net) and be happy with your browsing. if you dont want to put technical knowledge in your belt, then i suggest work hard, get good money and go for fruit grade laptop/OS and learn all of its inverted nomenclatures/notions wrt windows. ymmv.

[fourfathom]

if all you do is browsing while travelling, imho your old HP is still perfectly fine, [... some good advice ...]

I've done clean installs before, and while my particular laptop didn't come with much bloatware (not enough room on the disk), I did remove everything that I didn't need before I started using it.  My problem is that Microsoft keeps trying to upgrade / bug-fix the OS (but I still want to use Windows).  I don't want to spend a lot of time messing around with it, I just want it to work.  Once I get a replacement I will probably put Linux on the old machine, but I want the main travel-computer to be something my wife is also comfortable using -- I don't want to try to show her how to use a Linux box.

So: Windows, more-than-adequate RAM, big enough SSD, lightweight, rugged enough, useful # of ports.  That's what I'm looking for.

[David Hess]

I just ordered a Lenovo ThinkBook 15 Gen 3 with 16G RAM.

Pros:

- Lots of External Ports
- IPS Anti-glare LCD Display
- SD Card Reader
- 1 x SO-DIMM memory expansion, so up to 40GB with a 32GB SO-DIMM.
- Supports Second 2.5" HDD or M.2 2280 SSD
- Supports 3 external displays plus native display.

Cons:

- Low Battery Life
- Integrated Battery
- 1 x SO-DIMM Memory Expansion instead of 2 x SO-DIMM Memory Expansion
- Chiclet keyboard, but all laptops have these now.

[brucehoult]

6 cores or 8?

That's not what "chiclet" means. Chiclet is a TV remote control or calculator style keyboard. Key pointL if you press on the edge of a key, it tilts.

This is scissor-switch.

I've got a 2-3 year old Lenovo ThinkPad E14 Gen 2 (6 core Ryzen 5 4500U) and the keyboard is absolutely fine. Not as good as my MacBook, but close enough that I don't care.

[David Hess]

6 cores or 8?

It has the AMD Ryzen 7 5700U Processor (1.80 GHz, up to 4.30 GHz Max Boost, 8 Cores, 16 Threads, 8 MB Cache).  I would have preferred a lower power processor with fewer cores, but they all draw the same amount of power.  Performance is limited by the thermal solution.

That's not what "chiclet" means. Chiclet is a TV remote control or calculator style keyboard. Key pointL if you press on the edge of a key, it tilts.

I am old enough to remember the CoCo and various other early personal computers.  I call it a chiclet keyboard, others call it a chiclet keyboard, even the manufacturers call it a chiclet keyboard.  It resembles the chiclet keyboards on personal computers in the 1980s and has all of the same disadvantages; the keys are not cupped for self centering, the travel distance is too short, and there is not enough tactile feedback.

I've got a 2-3 year old Lenovo ThinkPad E14 Gen 2 (6 core Ryzen 5 4500U) and the keyboard is absolutely fine. Not as good as my MacBook, but close enough that I don't care.

For years I have been testing various laptop keyboards whenever I visit Micro Center or some other store with laptops on sale, and laptop keyboards are all horrible.

A couple years ago I finally gave up on wireless rubber dome keyboards and went back to mechanical keyswitches and corded keyboards.  It is such an improvement.

[brucehoult]

That's not what "chiclet" means. Chiclet is a TV remote control or calculator style keyboard. Key pointL if you press on the edge of a key, it tilts.

I am old enough to remember the CoCo and various other early personal computers.

Good for you.

I taught myself 6502 machine code programming on an Apple ][ in 1980, and z80 machine code on a Sinclair zx80 in 1981. I've used the CoCo and the Spectrum. Thankfully, I never used or even saw a PC Jr.

I think I know the horrors of a chiclet keyboard, and the modern Thinkpad keyboard is NOT THAT, no matter what you or anyone else calls it. Which I think, incidentally, you might find is "chiclet style" (i.e. appearance), not chiclet mechanism and feel/action.

I'm pretty fussy about keyboards and have been known to drive colleagues crazy by bringing a 1980s IBM Model M (I have them in both AT and PS/2 style) along to work. I also have a collection of 1980s Apple "Saratoga" ADB keyboards.

[rsjsouza]

.I think I know the horrors of a chiclet keyboard, and the modern Thinkpad keyboard is NOT THAT, no matter what you or anyone else calls it. Which I think, incidentally, you might find is "chiclet style" (i.e. appearance), not chiclet mechanism and feel/action.

I have the same opinion as brucehoult here: chiclet keyboards are rubber keyboards present in Z80 Sinclairs and other ultra cheap 1970s/1980s home computers. The main feature of them is that it is impossible to type in any sort of speed, as there is very poor mechanical feedback and the keys are too loose to warrant any sort of typing accuracy. I think the only thing worse was a membrane keyboard present in one of Sinclais's Brazilian clones named TK82C.

However, it seems the term was too good to leave it in the past: searching for chiclet keyboard I found a large number of hits that nowadays modernized the term to incorporate the modern laptop keyboards in the shape of chiclets (square with rounded edges and very poor tactile feel).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiclet_keyboard

However, the modern "chiclet" laptop keyboards are nothing like the older ones: they are usable, while the older ones were absolutely not.

Learned something new today...

[David Hess]

I taught myself 6502 machine code programming on an Apple ][ in 1980, and z80 machine code on a Sinclair zx80 in 1981. I've used the CoCo and the Spectrum. Thankfully, I never used or even saw a PC Jr.

Pretty much the same for me, except it was friends who had the CoCo systems.  I had a ZX80 and later worked on the Apple ][ and had an Apple ][e.  In that era, I think the best computer keyboard I used was the sculpted keyboard on the Apple 3 which had narrower keytops more like a Selectric.  I learned 6502 on the Atari 800 and Apple, and 8080/8085/Z80 on S-100 CP/M systems and the Apple Z80 Softcard.

I think I know the horrors of a chiclet keyboard, and the modern Thinkpad keyboard is NOT THAT, no matter what you or anyone else calls it. Which I think, incidentally, you might find is "chiclet style" (i.e. appearance), not chiclet mechanism and feel/action.

Multiple key mechanisms were used in the past, including the scissor switch.  I do not care what the mechanism is when the travel distance is so short and the keys are not cupped.  These aspects of keyboard design are driven by the desire to make the laptop as thin as possible and not ease of use.  Apple and many others now make chiclet desktop keyboards for no other reason than consistency of style, and to make the laptop keyboards seem not so bad.  Does a desktop need a thinner keyboard? I can touch type on them, and could even get used to it, but the combination of short travel distance and flat keys is fatiguing.

I'm pretty fussy about keyboards and have been known to drive colleagues crazy by bringing a 1980s IBM Model M (I have them in both AT and PS/2 style) along to work. I also have a collection of 1980s Apple "Saratoga" ADB keyboards.

I have a few Model Ms and some Model M clones but I have not used them in a long time.  I accepted rubber dome keyboards for the sake of wireless operation, but finally decided that the tradeoff was not worth it.  I stopped using wireless mice also.

[nctnico]

I'm pretty fussy about keyboards and have been known to drive colleagues crazy by bringing a 1980s IBM Model M (I have them in both AT and PS/2 style) along to work. I also have a collection of 1980s Apple "Saratoga" ADB keyboards.

Same here. I like the old 'noisy' keyboards with a 'click' when you press the keys best. I'm still using a PS/2 style keyboard (with USB adapter). The keyboard is very worn though; some keys and parts of the surface have been polished like a mirror.

[David Hess]

I'm pretty fussy about keyboards and have been known to drive colleagues crazy by bringing a 1980s IBM Model M (I have them in both AT and PS/2 style) along to work. I also have a collection of 1980s Apple "Saratoga" ADB keyboards.

Same here. I like the old 'noisy' keyboards with a 'click' when you press the keys best. I'm still using a PS/2 style keyboard (with USB adapter). The keyboard is very worn though; some keys and parts of the surface have been polished like a mirror.

I am currently using a Logitech G413 Carbon which is tactile but without a pronounced click.  I would prefer a keyboard with more of an upper frame, but this one was cheap.