Laptop Choice ?

[Lindley]

Hi,

A family member wanted some help in choosing a new laptop and we came up with these two machines which should meet their performance / budget.

As a self build desktop user can advise on specs but no experience of the laptop brands which are Lenovo and HP.

Any thoughts on which is the better ?  Just looking at ytubes of both having the covers removed the Lenovo seems better made to our eyes, though looks can be deceiving.





Another faster Lenovo at a similar price to the above 2

[nctnico]

If the laptop is for serious use, I'd buy one from the 'for business' section. Yes, these seem to offer less bang for the buck but these typically use better components and are better built.

[NiHaoMike]

Most important in my opinion is to make sure the RAM can be upgraded. 8GB is pretty low and is easily outgrown.

[Mechatrommer]

my quick-foo tells me the Lenovo V15 G2 is clear winner, assuming its within your budget. mainly because 6 cores Ryzen 5 5500U. even if its a little more expensive than the rest. we cant upgrade CPU later so we must aim high in the first place. RAM/NVME/HDD can be added later. if its me i'll buy that Lenovo V15 G2 + additional 8GB RAM (ask the seller to install for you) for total 16GB RAM. for normal human, the 256GB SSD is enough. in case you want to become abnormal, you can upgrade to 512GB NVME + X TB HDD later on anyway.

https://www.lenovo.com/my/en/laptops/lenovo/lenovo-v-series/Lenovo-V15-Gen-2-15%E2%80%9D-AMD/p/XXYTXVNA500?orgRef=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F
https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-5-5500u

[coppice]

If the laptop is for serious use, I'd buy one from the 'for business' section. Yes, these seem to offer less bang for the buck but these typically use better components and are better built.

When you see "for business" in a laptop description, read it as "we think you can carry this one around in your bags, on various forms of transport, for at least the warranty period, without trouble". If its not described as "for business" assume it will be fine when used at home, but probably won't stand up to endless carrying.

[Lindley]

They all come with 8gb of ram soldered in, but with a free slot  for another 8gb.

Point taken, but doubt they could get  a business class one as their budget is limited.

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

[Mechatrommer]

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

the website said we can add sata HDD in them for additional storage, so there should be empty slots for HDD (and RAM). usually it will be 2.5" HDD type as i've done few times. this is the beauty of non-fruit brand gadgets, we can buy budget spec unit and upgrade them to the max ourself on par with business/fruit grade spec. we just need to learn not to handle them carelessly like we handle Fluke DMM, such as dropping, throwing randomly on the bed, or do stupid thing such as spinning them on our middle finger just to entertain few chickens on the road.

[brucehoult]

Point taken, but doubt they could get  a business class one as their budget is limited.

It's cheaper to buy one good quality one than to buy a second (or third) cheap one because the first one broke.

I think the Lenovo laptops are all built pretty well, but I would never get a budget HP.

[brucehoult]

Also appears though they use a PCIe NVMe SSD they still have a free Sata drive bay, wonder if that could be populated as well for extra storage ?

the website said we can add sata HDD in them for additional storage, so there should be empty slots for HDD (and RAM). usually it will be 2.5" HDD type as i've done few times. this is the beauty of non-fruit brand gadgets, we can buy budget spec unit and upgrade them to the max ourself on par with business/fruit grade spec.

You can upgrade specs but you can't upgrade quality.

Having things such as CPU or RAM or SSD in mechanical sockets so you can replace them is IN ITSELF a cause of bad reliability in a device subjected to being routinely moved around.

[rob77]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

[NiHaoMike]

Having things such as CPU or RAM or SSD in mechanical sockets so you can replace them is IN ITSELF a cause of bad reliability in a device subjected to being routinely moved around.

I have only had the SATA connector fail in one laptop, I desoldered it and permanently soldered in an old 128GB SSD so it can still be used for something. I suspect the reason for the failure has to do with the SSD being changed often as it's a test machine, in normal use the SSD is rarely changed.

[David Hess]

Most important in my opinion is to make sure the RAM can be upgraded. 8GB is pretty low and is easily outgrown.

I agree.  My short list of laptops all have 1 or preferably 2 SO-DIMM slots.  Lack of memory will be the first thing which renders a laptop obsolete.

I would also prefer one with a replaceable battery but apparently those are long gone.

[nctnico]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

I'd be surprised if you can't install even more memory. The Dell laptop (from the 'for business section') I bought a decade ago, happily accepts 16GB of memory. I'd say 64GB should'nt have to be a problem in a modern day laptop. Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

[brucehoult]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

OP didn't say anything at all about the proposed usage for this laptop, which makes the whole thread a blind shot in the dark.

[nctnico]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

That is just an example. David Hess makes a good point in saying that lack of ability to expand the memory can render a laptop obsolete. If my current laptop didn't support 16GB, I would have needed to buy a new one several years ago.

[brucehoult]

Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

While that is undoubtedly true, many people will go their entire PC-using lives without ever running a virtual machine and it is not necessary to spec their computer as if they will.

That is just an example. David Hess makes a good point in saying that lack of ability to expand the memory can render a laptop obsolete. If my current laptop didn't support 16GB, I would have needed to buy a new one several years ago.

What's so special about 16 GB? Why can't the same argument -- with nothing said about specific use-cases -- be made about the necessity of 32 GB or 64 GB instead?


I've got a 2011 MacBook Air with 4 GB RAM that still absolutely perfectly does the job I bought it for: email, web browsing, video playback, editing code when I'm travelling or just want to sit out on the deck and ssh into the below machine. I don't recall ever having a situation where it starting lagging because of lack of RAM (or any other reason). For most people who can't name SPECIFIC things they need more for, that is probably still fine, and 8 GB for sure is.

My home server/workstation is an original model 32 core ThreadRipper with 128 GB RAM that frequently gets pushed to the limit by large software builds, and, as you mention, a few VMs.

Naming some arbitrary number and saying "Everyone should get that, and no less" is just silly.

[GigaJoe]

seems all 3 equally / approximately the same.
can be 1-2y old used are alternative to a new one, it can be better spec with the same price bracket ..
keyboard can be replaced to a new one ; fan heatsink cleaned, memory added, wifi module upgraded, brand new again 

[NiHaoMike]

8GB easily runs out if you open a lot of browser tabs. 16GB is plenty for now unless you're really crazy with tabs.

[brucehoult]

8GB easily runs out if you open a lot of browser tabs. 16GB is plenty for now unless you're really crazy with tabs.

Define "really crazy".

Depends on the browser. Depends on the OS. Depends on the pages!

[Mechatrommer]

the website i linked earlier said it can go up to 16gb ram, unless if they lied, confirm with shop before buying, easy job.. my normal web browse few tabs and cad and eda can easily go up more than 8gb. 16gb is comfort level.. 'quality' is a marketing stunt, fruit brand unit wont survive 1 floor level drop either... connections and loose objects in laptop are held with screws and snap clips, you have to be fucked up to make those loose. As i said, learn not to fuck up, if you are not aiming tank armored laptop. Anyway, i only recommend laptop to families when they need me, i myself wont touch them with barge pole for my own work..

[Berni]

I bought two similar Lenovos for coworkers from a local place that sells refurbished laptops cheep. They do appear pretty well made while also being pretty thin and light. Not sure how good the cooling is but those were not very powerful machines so likely didn't need much cooling in the first place.

You definitely want something that can take at least 12 or 16 GB of RAM. Mostly because websites have become such a script bloated shitshow that web browsers need ever more resources to render them(especially when you got 100 tabs of them). Especially since you might want the laptop to still work well after 5 years.

You also loose some RAM to the integrated graphics. Especially since you typically want integrated graphics on a more content consumption oriented machine. They are more power efficient and still have enough horsepower for typical 3D CAD work and light gaming.

My own laptop is a from BestWare https://bestware.com/en/laptop (Got a XMG Core 17 for about 1000€)
They are a small German computer manufacturer that makes powerful laptops (XMG is gaming, Schenker is business/workstation) at a reasonable price. They are high quality and made to order (spec out the components you want in it, even down to the brand of RAM), they get you a keyboard in almost any language you want, no windows license if you don't need one...etc They have excellent support, they will even ship you any spare part you want at normal prices, no need to send the whole laptop to a service center. Much friendlier in general to deal with due to being a smaller company. Tho don't think they make much lower end stuff in the 600€ price bracket.

[nightfire]

The HP notebook is considered according to nomenclature as "entry level business", meaning that the 2xx series is at the very bottom of the pack. The 400 series is in this regard somewhat better, so a glance for them would also worth looking for.
At work, I have some generations of the 650 series in service (the series specced a bit higher than the 200/400, also 15" screen, and the oldest systems are in use for approx 6 years now).
Depending on what the system shall do, 8GB are currently sufficient and will probably be ok for the next years, but as Windows 11 is around the corner with some higher hardware demands as Win 10, it is good to have some RAM slot available for RAM upgrades.

[rob77]

8GB RAM usually means 4GB soldered and one sodimm socket populated with a 4GB stick (at least for Lenovo) i can confirm this for S540-14API (r5 3500u), 330S-15IKB  and 320-17IKB (both i5-8250u) all of them sold with 8GB memory and it was 4GB onboard + 4GB stick.
i did upgrade my S540 to 20GB by replacing the sodimm stick with a 16G one.

I'd be surprised if you can't install even more memory. The Dell laptop (from the 'for business section') I bought a decade ago, happily accepts 16GB of memory. I'd say 64GB should'nt have to be a problem in a modern day laptop. Running a few virtual machines eats away memory quickly.

depends on the CPU, many low cost CPUs (celeron, pentium) simply doesn't support more than 8G per memory channel and usually the cheap laptops with those cheap CPUs have only one memory channel. so it's the best to avoid those.
for the big CPUs (core, ryzen) you can have 16 or 32G per memory channel, no problem.

[wilfred]

Get the one that comes with Win11 out of the box. If the family member is an undemanding user watching videos and emails, social media and so on,  it doesn't matter  really. They're pretty much the same.

If one has a noticeably better looking screen then get that one and if it has a vacant drive bay to expand with a SATA SSD then that will get past 256GB as a limit for internal storage.

I'd go for the 5500U one because it is faster.

[brucehoult]

the website i linked earlier said it can go up to 16gb ram, unless if they lied, confirm with shop before buying, easy job..

Ability to expand is later is useful, but I wouldn't pay a lot for it. In 30 years of owning laptops (first was a PowerBook 100), the vast majority of which were upgradable, I can't recall ever actually upgrading one more than a week or two after initial purchase (i.e. planned to buy cheap 3rd party RAM or disk from the outset). Usually by the time any pinch is felt there is something with vastly better CPU etc anyway.

my normal web browse few tabs and cad and eda can easily go up more than 8gb.

When OP says "A family member wanted some help" without further explanation, CAD and EDA is not the first thing that crosses my mind!

'quality' is a marketing stunt, fruit brand unit wont survive 1 floor level drop either...

What I know is people who buy HP and Asus and those kinds of laptops seldom use them for long. I have *never* had a fruit-brand laptop fail. Sadly, I sold the PowerBook 100 and Duo 230 when I upgraded them. But I still have a 1998 G3/266 and (battery aside) it works as well as the day I bought it. I also, sadly, don't have the 17" G4 as I sold it when I got a Core 2 Duo. However that still works. As does the 2011 quad core i7 17".

A couple of years ago my 80 year old father complained that some old photos (specifically a range of serial numbers, but they were from a specific overseas trip) had gone missing from his iPhoto database, and could I see if I could find them. He was indeed correct, they were not there on his Retina MBP.  I pulled his previous 2011 17" i7 (same as mine, but he's retired his) off the shelf and looked. The same photos were missing there too. I pulled the Core 2 Duo off the shelf. Same deal.  So I grabbed the 2000 500 MHz G3 "Pismo". Aha! The iPhoto database stopped at the exact photo serial number before the missing range. I think he upgraded computer after returning from the overseas trip and somehow simply lost or overwrote the memory card containing the missing photos and never actually had them on his computer, ever.

But, again, the point is that every single obsoleted and replaced machine booted up and worked perfectly. Even the 20 year old one.

If anything, the quality is perhaps excessive. Not only mechanically. They also seem to not have capacitors that go bad, or similar.