Laptop for "programming"

[PerranOak]

I am looking at getting a new laptop. Its primary role will be to run the software for the programming, etc. of microcontrollers, etc.

My old (12 years!) laptop can just about cope with MPLAB but when I installed Visual Studio it nearly had a mental breakdown.

Problem is that the reviews all talk about laptops for: gaming, business, creativity and so on.

As it will be mainly for this "programming" and maybe some other simple stuff, I don't need one with a mighty GPU or fancy screen. So, what should I look for?

Cheers.

PS
Don't want to spend a fortune just for this!

[AndyC_772]

I bought a new laptop a few months ago for much the same thing.

I particularly need enough USB ports to run a debugger, CAN bus monitor and at least one COM port, and that's a limiting factor. Laptops really don't seem to be as expandable as they used to be.

I ended up with an HP Probook 450 G6, with 8GB RAM, an i5-8265U processor and an SSD. The finish is nasty silvery plastic and it comes with way too much bloatware installed, but otherwise it's a pretty solid piece of kit and I'm happy with it so far.

Cost was £750ish.

[sokoloff]

I'd buy a lease-return enterprise-grade HP, Dell, or Lenovo laptop. Will be a few years old, probably still from the era where upgrades were possible. It'll be 80% of the performance for 33% of the cost.

Be sure it has an SSD (or plan to change over to one before placing it in service). 8GB is OK. 16GB slightly better on RAM. Hard drive space is up to you and depends quite a bit on whether you have an additional network-attached-storage available to you. I wouldn't go under 256GB on the hard drive side.

[bingo600]

I'm using a 2'nd hand  - Lenovo T430s  (s=slim) , w 16GB Ram , + 1TB Samsung EVO 860 SSD
For me this is fully adequate.

Arm + AVR + PADA + "Vbox (Quartus + ISE)"

/Bingo

[0db]

ThinkPad X1 Carbon, 8th gen
€1.589,00

• CPU: 6MB of cache,  Intel Core i5-10210U @1,60 GHz, Turboboost @ 4,20 GHz
• RAM: 8GB LPDDR3 @ 2.133 MHz
• HD: 256GB SSD, M.2 2280, PCIe, Gen3x4, OPAL2.0, TLC
• GFX: builtin
• LCD: FHD @ 1.920x1.080, 14", IPS

It's perfect for my coding!

[rstofer]

If you ever think about working with Xilinx FPGAs, you should probably find something with a 4 core 8 thread CPU.  Xilinx Vivado is pretty grim under the best of circumstances.

Most of the uC and PC programming I have done compiles pretty fast on my modest laptop with an I7-8550U processor (4 core 8 thread).  By all means, get a 1 TB SSD.  Graphics isn't an issue for me but my laptop will support external monitors so I have one attached.  It is on a USB-C connection with an HDMI converter.

[0db]

my modest laptop with an I7-8550U processor (4 core 8 thread)

which model/vendor? 

[RenThraysk]

If buying new in the over £1000-£1500 price range seems to me that an AMD Ryzen 4000 series is the way to go atm.

Read somewhere the Lenovo Thinkpad T14 & T14s ranges are shipping here in the UK.

[andersm]

Are you planning on using it on the go, or chained to a desk? What kind of ports do you need? Will you be using an external display? What operating systems are you planning on running?

I would recommend against anything older than 2018, when even mid-range laptops started coming with 4 cores. The first generation Zen mobile CPUs were also pretty anemic, so if you want an AMD CPU, you probably want one of this year's models.

[brucehoult]

Programs for microcontrollers? So tiny programs, by today's standards. Building a program is going to take seconds, no matter what you get.

You didn't say what you have now.

Absolutely any current mainstream CPU will do. Dual core will do, but it's usually so cheap to get a quad core that you might as well. Eight GB of RAM may be enough but, again, the incremental cost of 16 is so low that you might as well do it -- especially if you're going to run some bloated Eclipse based IDE. The work stuff is unlikely to need more than 64 GB of SSD but, again, the incremental cost of 256 GB or 512 GB is very low now.

To be honest, the necessary specs will depend more on what *else* you want to do with the machine.

Computers aren't getting much faster each year now (other than more cores), so if your old one has lasted you 12 years then your new one easily could do that or more, if you buy something with quality hardware. I'm still running a 2011 Core-i7 11" MacBook Air (4 GB RAM) and a 2011 Core-i7 17" MacBook Pro (16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 750 GB hard disk) with no problems other than the battery in the MBP has died and it's non-trivial to get a new one. The higher end Lenovo and Dell things are well built too.

Probably the amount of I/O is more important, though now with USB-C (or Thunderbolt) it's not as important as before because it's got huge bandwidth and you can get any ports you need via port expanders, including legacy stuff that no one would ever build into the actual laptop now -- centronics, SCSI, serial, it's all available with inexpensive USB-C or USB3 adaptors.

[nigelwright7557]

i prefer the desktop route with decent keyboard and mouse.
trying to type over the touchpad on a laptop is slow and tedius.
at least a coffeelake processor.

[brucehoult]

If you ever think about working with Xilinx FPGAs, you should probably find something with a 4 core 8 thread CPU.  Xilinx Vivado is pretty grim under the best of circumstances.

Does it even use multiple cores?

Anyway, FPGA place&route is a massively different task to compiling a bit of microcontroller C code. A different planet.

Most of the uC and PC programming I have done compiles pretty fast on my modest laptop with an I7-8550U processor (4 core 8 thread).

i7-8550U is a high end CPU for thin&light laptops -- only the 100 MHz faster 8650U is above it, in that two year old generation.

I have an i7-8650U NUC and at my previous job I had an i7-8650U laptop (Lenovo X1 Carbon). Both have 32 GB RAM. The NUC cost maybe half what the laptop did, fits into the palm of my hand, plus on any compile taking more than one or two minutes the NUC is up to 50% faster e.g. taking 40 minutes on an LLVM build that takes the Lenovo 60 minutes. The reason for this is the superior cooling in the NUC.

[brucehoult]

i prefer the desktop route with decent keyboard and mouse.
trying to type over the touchpad on a laptop is slow and tedius.
at least a coffeelake processor.

You can of course plug keyboard and mouse and huge screen into a laptop. If that's all you ever do -- maybe at multiple locations -- but you don't actually need to work away from mains power, then you get a lot more computer for your money in a NUC (or Mac Mini etc) than in a laptop. Plus you can use a good quality kb/mouse/screen with multiple generations of CPU units.

A tower (especially self built, or built for you to order by a local shop) gives even more bang for the buck, at the expense of a lot less portability than a NUC or laptop. My main home work machine is now a 32 core ThreadRipper with 128 GB RAM which I had someone build and test for me, using parts I specified.

[james_s]

Get something with a good keyboard. Lenovo used to be king here but I haven't looked at their most recent offerings. Anything you can buy new today is going to run circles around your 12 year old machine in terms of performance. Corporate grade machines are definitely a big step up from the consumer junk.

[Siwastaja]

The most resource-demanding application for programming embedded (not massive desktop programs, or large simulation engines, etc.) will be the web browser you use to find help, by far.

If the browser runs properly, all is well.

If Visual Studio is not working, the obvious answer is, do not use Visual Studio.

[Warhawk]

I would look for laptops with a 3:2 or 16:10 aspect ratio and check if the backlight uses PWM. I have had Thinkpads last 12 years and the current one (P1gen2) is the least impressive one. I can compare it with the company's Dell Precision 5530. I suggest the new XPS15 with a 16:10 screen. Take the integrated graphics if you ever think about running Linux. Do not necessarily max up the CPU. Many new laptops exhibit thermal throttling so you won't use the full bandwidth anyway. An NVMe SSD is a must-have but you can always buy and add it later (e.g. Samsung 970 Evo plus). 32GB ram is the sweet spot for a new machine. Check the docking options too. Many docking stations are overpriced or lack features (MAC pass through, button to enable the system, etc.). The travel adapter is also important if you're a road warrior. You probably want to have a small USB-C charger. You can't go wrong with business class laptops (Thinkpads, Elitebooks, Latitudes, etc.). They all suck differently and you can read horror stories about them on Reddit. USB-C docking is one of the worst things.

If you're on a budget just take a 2nd hand ThinkPad t480, max it out and call it a day. That laptop is brilliant.

Good luck

[PerranOak]

Wow! Thank you very much everyone.

As usual, I didn't give enough info at the start, sorry. 

I'm going to use it not exactly "chained to a desk" but not roving all over. Space is a problem so it has to be a laptop rather than desktop. I'm hoping to spend no more / little more than a monkey (500 GBP) as it will be 80% for this one purpose. The missus will probably use it for browsing, etc. - that way I can justify using joint funds!

My current machine is an Acer Aspire 5610Z that I bought from Comet for £549.99 on 13 June 2007. To be fair, it does everything I ask but it does it very very slowly. It runs Windows8.1 and when I tried to upgrade to Windows10 it fell over and wouldn't play anymore so I took it back to 8.1.

I'll be running Windows 10, hopefully. BTW will I really need Win10 Pro or is that not necessary? I will need a few USB ports I guess. I do worry about seconhand items as I fret about security. 

[Warhawk]

Wow! Thank you very much everyone.

As usual, I didn't give enough info at the start, sorry. 

I'm going to use it not exactly "chained to a desk" but not roving all over. Space is a problem so it has to be a laptop rather than desktop. I'm hoping to spend no more / little more than a monkey (500 GBP) as it will be 80% for this one purpose. The missus will probably use it for browsing, etc. - that way I can justify using joint funds!

My current machine is an Acer Aspire 5610Z that I bought from Comet for £549.99 on 13 June 2007. To be fair, it does everything I ask but it does it very very slowly. It runs Windows8.1 and when I tried to upgrade to Windows10 it fell over and wouldn't play anymore so I took it back to 8.1.

I'll be running Windows 10, hopefully. BTW will I really need Win10 Pro or is that not necessary? I will need a few USB ports I guess. I do worry about seconhand items as I fret about security. 

In this case seriously consider thinkpad t480 (no S) from eBay. You may be able to find a unit still in warranty.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lenovo-Thinkpad-T480-Business-Class-Laptop-i5-8350U-CPU-8GB-RAM-256GB-NVMe-SSD/143650045384?hash=item217235bdc8:g:R0AAAOSw6gdfAa3D

This will likely make you happy. I wish I decided for the t480 instead of the p1 gen2.
Note that t480 is a one of the last thinkpads with socketed ram, drives etc. You can always extend it if you need to.

You may want to listen to Wolfgang:
https://youtu.be/621WJlMJq98

[brucehoult]

My current machine is an Acer Aspire 5610Z

Omg.  Dual core Pentium T2060 2 GB RAM. 1.6 GHz, no turbo, 1 MB cache.

A Raspberry Pi 4 might outperform it :-)

[0db]

if you buy something with quality hardware. I'm still running a 2011 Core-i9 11" MacBook Air (4 GB RAM) and a 2011 Core-i9 17" MacBook Pro (16 GB RAN, 256 GB SSD, 750 GB hard disk) with no problems

Quality hardware? with Apple 2011 laptops? In the same sentence?
I think I have just missed something ...

Things have improved only after 2018 and they are keep getting a little better (except the "touchbar", but at least the cooling system is now "ok"), thus I would suggest to stay away from everything ever made and sold before two years ago.

[sokoloff]

I think Apple Macbooks were fine up through 2013 and again since fall 2019. There was a window of one disaster after another in between there, but I'm not at all surprised that a 2011 Air is still working well. My wife retired her 2011 Air in favor of my old 2013 Air when I got a 2019 16" Pro.

[james_s]

The fact that it's a 2011 laptop that is still working and in use suggests that it is quality hardware. I agree that 2011 was kind of the sweet spot for those. My work laptop is a 2017 MBP and there are a lot of things I don't like about it. The keyboard is garbage and having lived with the touchbar for 2 years I've concluded that it's a neat but useless gimmick. Mine has been malfunctioning with a flickering white square on one end for some time now, I was going to get it taken care of when the pandemic hit.

[0db]

My work laptop is a 2017 MBP and there are a lot of things I don't like about it.

Between 2011 and 2013 the cooling system was not brilliant (to be polite) with the macbook pro, and as result doing some heavy video editing too often usually ended with toasted (fried gpu) machines that users like me had to send back to Apple for repairing. According to repairing centers, 4 on 10 people (1) suffered this problem, and it's the 40% of the production during those years.

I don't know what happened between 2013 and 2017, but in 2018, they finally understood the cooling system was not so brilliant, and they redesigned it in a decent way. So at least every laptop made between 2019 and 2020 is not affected by any serious thermal problem.

The bookair-2011 didn't suffer this problem, but it was infamous for bad quality batteries that didn't last 2 years before being unable to power the laptop for more than 20 min, and this was the major issue, because it's an ultra light portable and replacing the battery has never been a piece of cake. And (according to what Apple Centers said) 3 on 10 people (1) suffered problems with the magnetic plug of the power supply, which if bent it was too prone to break.

(1) this data is interesting, but ... rather "gossip". About durability and security, they only way to have a quality measure is to see how many MIL-STD-810G durability tests a laptop has passed, including those for extreme temperatures, shocks and vibrations.

[brucehoult]

if you buy something with quality hardware. I'm still running a 2011 Core-i7 11" MacBook Air (4 GB RAM) and a 2011 Core-i7 17" MacBook Pro (16 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 750 GB hard disk) with no problems

Quality hardware? with Apple 2011 laptops? In the same sentence?
I think I have just missed something ...

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?

That's the definition of "quality".

Sandy Bridge i7s turboing to 3.3 GHz (17") and 2.9 GHz (11" Air) are slower than current machines but not *that* much slower as to be unusable. On big demanding tasks such as place&route or building LLVM, sure. On web browsing and building programs for microcontrollers -- no problems at all.

[0db]

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?

That's the definition of "quality".

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

And when you are not lucky, well ...
the same Apple centers don't have any interest in repairing machines older than four years.

[james_s]

No, that's definition of "you have been just lucky" 
And when you are not lucky, well ...
the same Apple centers don't have any interest in repairing machines older than four years.

What laptop manufactures are interested in repairing machines older than 4 years? I haven't needed to try, but I bet if I took my 2015 X250 into a Lenovo dealer with a problem they'd ask me to take a look at their latest models.

There was a series of Macbooks that were notoriously unreliable, but others have been quite good. I know quite a few people who have been using the same one for years, and my employer has well over 100 of them in service with very few failures.

[Mechatrommer]

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?
That's the definition of "quality".

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

i think i'll agree with the definition. because my custom build PC (the cheapest possible route) is now reaching more than 10 years already. and with that definition.... i know this thread is about laptop, i have Gigabyte minibook maybe for more than 4-5 years now, still working but battery's dead.

the same Apple centers don't have any interest in repairing machines older than four years.

What laptop manufactures are interested in repairing machines older than 4 years? I haven't needed to try, but I bet if I took my 2015 X250 into a Lenovo dealer with a problem they'd ask me to take a look at their latest models.

brand-independent shops like Rossman and many techy/PC shops will take anything, thats why next time if i need another laptop (not a fan) i'll buy the cheapest option, but still recognizable brand such as Acer, HP, Lenovo etc and wont expect for aftersale service beyond warranty period. buying overpriced is like a large portion of the price is for so called "free" repair service within the extra warranty period maybe like 3-4 years (do we have such thing?), during the period when laptop is still have no problem at all (as mentioned... if lucky, regardless of brands including that bitten fruit logo) after that, the money/service is considered burnt, so no point in paying in first place anyway. or its still cheaper buying another brand + the cost repairing in any year/period in normal repair shop. or just repair ourself, i heard the bitten-fruit is is way much harder to diy-repair/upgrade.

[David Hess]

As it will be mainly for this "programming" and maybe some other simple stuff, I don't need one with a mighty GPU or fancy screen. So, what should I look for?

I would start by looking for a keyboard with cupped keys (no chicklets), an IPS matte screen, and several full size USB B ports.

[brucehoult]

What you've missed is that they are still working without problems after nine years?

That's the definition of "quality".

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

ok.

Last October I visited my 80 year old parents for a week. My dad complained that he'd wanted to find and send someone a photo from a trip they'd made some years ago, but it and several hundred others were missing (based on dates and camera photo sequence numbers). Could I figure out what had happened and "recover" them somehow.

I took a look at Photos on his new 16" MacBook Pro. Yup, missing.

Ok, let's look at your old machine. I grabbed his 2011 17" MBP off the shelf (same as mine -- I bought two of them used in 2014 and upgraded them with more RAM and an SSD). I booted it up, opened iPhoto .. the same photos were missing.

Ok, how about the previous machine? I grabbed the 2006 2.33 GHz Core 2 Duo 17" MBP off the shelf, booted it. Hmm .. seems to boot, but there's no display. Ok, let's try an external monitor. Yup .. and we're in ... open iPhoto .. and that photo range is also missing.

Ok, next..  I grabbed the 2001 "Pismo" 500 MHz G3 PowerBook off the shelf. Hmm .. it goes "boing", the screen comes on, but they it shows a Sad Mac. But it seems like the disk is spinning. OK. I plug a firewire 400 cable from the 2006 machine (with external monitor) to the G3, hold down the "T" key and start it. Bingo! Its disk shows up on the desktop of the MBP. I do "switch libraries" in iPhoto.

Turns out that range of photos is also missing from that machine -- but there are only about 100 more photos after the range. I think dad just lost or forgot to import one memory card from that trip and *never* had those photos on a computer.

Yeah, there were some things broken on those 15 to 20 year old machines. But they basically were working. Reinstalling the OS on the 2001 G3 might even get it going properly -- all the hardware seemed to work. Or at most a new hard disk.

Fundamentally, they are not being used now just because they are too slow, have too little RAM, and don't run current software.

I have a 1998 "Main Street" 266 MHz G3 PowerBook that still goes. I boot it up occasionally because it has *all* the old school I/O: SCSI not Firewire), ADB not USB. Well -- and just to see if it still works. It's running an early version of OS X and can communicate via ethernet and/or the WIFI PC card.

[0db]

If you ever think about working with Xilinx FPGAs, you should probably find something with a 4 core 8 thread CPU.  Xilinx Vivado is pretty grim under the best of circumstances.

I have just tested Vivado on two laptops:

• Lenovo Carbon X1, 1st gen, Intel Core i7-3667U, 2 cores, 4 threads
• Lenovo Carbon X1, 8th gen, Intel Core i7-10510U, 4 cores, 8 threads

Ok, we are comparing a 2008 laptop with a 2020 laptop ...

The 10510U (2019) has better power consumption and higher memory bandwidth, owing to faster supported memory, but for compiling single C files (and not using distCC) on the SSD I slightly appreciated the the base frequency of the i7-3667U (2008), higher than the frequency of the Intel i7-10510U.

But for Vivado there is no game play: ok, the memory is faster with the 10510U, but more CPU cores on the i7-10510U help to process many simultaneous threads or processes, and it's more than evident because it completes the synthesis *considerably* faster 

It can't be so fast for just the faster memory, it's also thanks to more threads that helps a lot.
I think.

Does it even use multiple cores?

So to answer this question: I think yes 

[brucehoult]

[

Does it even use multiple cores?

So to answer this question: I think yes 

You should look at the performance tab of task manager to check that. At least I think that's what Windows calls it -- sorry if that's not quite right.

Or I should check Vivado on my 32 core machine :-)

[0db]

I started Vivado with the same project loaded on both laptops, and I looked at the wrist watch.

[brucehoult]

I started Vivado with the same project loaded on both laptops, and I looked at the wrist watch.

You didn't give any actual figures for what "considerably" faster was.

i7-3667U: 3.2 Ghz, 4 MB L2 cache
i7-10510U: 4.9 GHz, 8 MB L2 cache

Ivy Bridge to Comet lake is probably at *least* 1.5x the IPC. I don't have those exact models but in my primes test (very branchy code, fits entirely in L1 cache) the "Kaby Lake Refresh" 8650U already does 1.65x the IPC of an Ivy Bridge.

So let's say 1.5x or 1.6x for IPC, 4.9/3.2 = 1.53x for clock speed and you're looking at maybe 2.3x to 2.5x faster on single core code. The double sized L2 cache might just be supporting that (it'll be running at higher frequency too) but it's also possible it improves the hit rate enough to substantially improve the speed regardless of CPU performance.

If it's using all the available cores effectively then I'd expect to see around 5x faster.

But it's impossible to know without using a performance monitor to observe what the actual bottleneck is for Vivado on a project of your size.

[olkipukki]

Did Vivado drop or allow to set general.maxThreads to unlimited number in the latest versions? 

[olkipukki]

To me, that's the definition of "you have been just lucky" 

Lucky me!

Macbook Pro 13" late-2013 Retina dual-core 2.8 GHz i7, 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD, I would say one of the best laptop I ever have, and $$$ well invested and pay back many times. As today, still in use. 
Also, 2011 mac mini server i7 2Ghz another well build machine. 

Between 2011 and 2013 the cooling system was not brilliant (to be polite) with the macbook pro, and as result doing some heavy video editing too often usually ended with toasted (fried gpu) machines that users like me had to send back to Apple for repairing.

If you give Offiziersmesser to a carpenter, builder or chef - they still can do something with it, but would be pain in @$$ to use it on a daily basis...

[olkipukki]

PS
Don't want to spend a fortune just for this!

That's tricky part, to set a budget and stick to it (without ifs and buts) 

[PerranOak]

True. I've never done it yet!

This is why I still have my amazing Aspire : scared I'll spend a fortune!

[james_s]

On the other hand, down the road I don't think I've ever wished I'd spent less on a tool. Many times I have regretted buying cheap though and wished I had just spent the extra money. When I bought my laptop in 2015 I splurged and bought the top of the line CPU. I cringed at the cost but now I'm glad I did because 5 years later I'm still using it. Had I bought the slower one I'd probably be looking at upgrading already.

[PerranOak]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

[0db]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

I worked in a design studio between 2012 and 2015. I remember we bought six Apple MBP 2013. For each laptop we paid 2000 euro  for the "quality", but five of them got in the need of being sent back to Apple for repairing. The cooling system of those laptops was simply inappropriate and insufficient, and they got the GPU fried like chips. And it happened more than two times, untill laptops got finally replaced with Lenovo Carbon X1. I remember we had to move from FinalCut to Premiere to complete the jobs for our customers.

It was a full disaster. We lost a lot of money.

Did we pay for the quality? Sure, we did!
Did we cry only once? No. Many more times.

This yeas I am back with Finalcut. I asked a bank loan and bought a new MBP 2020 with a new version of FinalCut. I have "hope", but not so much, thus I also subscribed a contract by which a insurance company provides a guarantee of compensation for any specified loss or damage caused by any mulfunction of my MBP.

"buy quality, subscribe insurance, and cry only once"

[brucehoult]

Good point. Someone once said something like: “buy quality and cry only once”.

I worked in a design studio between 2012 and 2015. I remember we bought six Apple MBP 2013. For each laptop we paid 2000 euro  for the "quality", but five of them got in the need of being sent back to Apple for repairing. The cooling system of those laptops was simply inappropriate and insufficient, and they got the GPU fried like chips. And it happened more than two times, untill laptops got finally replaced with Lenovo Carbon X1. I remember we had to move from FinalCut to Premiere to complete the jobs for our customers.

It was a full disaster. We lost a lot of money.

Laptops for heavy duty video editing is just a dumb idea. Get an iMac at *least*. Preferably Mac Pro -- if you're doing it professionally the extra productivity is absolutely worth it. Laptops simply don't have the cooling. None of them. Even if the headline GHz looks good.

I've got two machines with the same Core-i7 8650U CPU -- a NUC and a Carbon X1. On long CPU intensive tasks such as a large program build the NUC is up to 50% faster. For example an LLVM build takes 40 minutes on the NUC but 60 minutes on the laptop. Both start out with all cores at 3.4 GHz. The laptop falls away from that sooner and eventually gets down to around 2.0 GHz. The NUC stays at 3.4 for several minutes and then eventually settles down at 2.8 to 3.0 GHz (I've *never* seen it below 2..

My 32 core ThreadRipper does that LLVM build in 4 minutes. I paid about US$4500 to build it.

That might seem like a lot of money (or $10k for a Mac Pro) but it's *nothing* compared to the $100k or $200k or more revenue that a professional brings into a company in a year. If it improves productivity by even 5% or 10% then it's worth it. In reality it will be far more than that.

It's crazy how people using computers balk at capital expenditure. Other independent contractors have to buy hydraulic excavators or trucks for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even car mechanics are laying out tens of thousands for equipment.

[0db]

Laptops for heavy duty video editing is just a dumb idea. Get an iMac at *least*. Preferably Mac Pro -- if you're doing it professionally

We needed to work in mobility, out of our company, at customer's offices. Thus we bought laptops.

[RenThraysk]

If already have a video editing workstation, pretty easy to utilise it over the network, so power of the laptop becomes less of an issue.

Eg Parsec for Teams. https://parsecgaming.com/teams/

[Doctorandus_P]

I particularly need enough USB ports to run a debugger, CAN bus monitor and at least one COM port, and that's a limiting factor. Laptops really don't seem to be as expandable as they used to be.

Euhm, That is where hubs are for!
Especially when involved in electronics, programming uC's etc, I would never plug these devices directly into my PC / Laptop, but always use a (probably powered) USB hub.

In such a case, if you inadvertently put 12Vdc on some wires of the USB cable, then you are likely to blow out the hub, but are unlikely to damage the USB port on your PC or laptop.

[brucehoult]

I commented here a couple of months ago but I've since actually done some research and bought a new programming laptop.

Lenovo had a nice special on the rather new (since this thread started!) E14 Gen 2 with Ryzen 5 4500U 6 core CPU. I got one with 8 GB RAM (expandable to 16, 24, or 40 GB by adding a SODIMM) and 256 GB SSD for NZ$1099 (£560, $730) including tax and shipping.

At 1.64 kg it's not as thin and light as an X1 Carbon, but it's also a fraction of the price. My old 2011 laptop was 3.0 kg so it's a big reduction. The ports are only 2x USB, 1 ethernet, 1 HDMI, headphone, and 1 USB-C for charging. I assume that's usable for docking also but I haven't checked.

That Zen 2 CPU is super quick. I'm impressed. It also runs much cooler than Intel CPUs.

[Doctorandus_P]

I particularly need enough USB ports to run a debugger, CAN bus monitor and at least one COM port, and that's a limiting factor. Laptops really don't seem to be as expandable as they used to be.
...

I always use an external (preferably powered) USB hub for tinkering with electronics.
It's just too easy to damage an USB port by for example accidentally touching a wire with 12Vdc from some raw power supply.

[PerranOak]

... and they protect the PC? Always?

[Wuerstchenhund]

if you buy something with quality hardware. I'm still running a 2011 Core-i9 11" MacBook Air (4 GB RAM) and a 2011 Core-i9 17" MacBook Pro (16 GB RAN, 256 GB SSD, 750 GB hard disk) with no problems

Quality hardware? with Apple 2011 laptops? In the same sentence?
I think I have just missed something ...

I have a 2012 MacBook Pro 13" running Catalina that still works fine, despite being on its 3rd battery (the current one is a 2-Power one, which make great replacement batteries). Aside from the fact that Apple thought it's a good idea to make a laptop shell from a soft aluminum alloy that dents easily it's a quite capable and durable machine compared with other Apple laptops (even though the actual hardware and the overall robustness is still quite poor compared with the HP Elitebooks from the same era).

Things have improved only after 2018 and they are keep getting a little better (except the "touchbar", but at least the cooling system is now "ok"), thus I would suggest to stay away from everything ever made and sold before two years ago.

I wouldn't recommend to buy anything that old from Apple, either, but mostly because 8+ years is a long time (and who knows how much use a 2nd hand laptop has seen in that time) and also because of Apple's planned obsolescence (it's a bit silly that Macs are longer supported by Microsoft's OS than by Apple's). And even with these old MacBooks repairs can be difficult (for example, the keyboard is part of the upper base frame and can't be replaced on its own).

And with newer machines there's always the chance that Apple introduced another design flaw which only comes to light later and which may or may not be fixable (like the recently found T2 security hole which isn't), and even if it is may or may not be fixed by Apple free of charge.

So unless someone really wants mac OS then I'd look to another brand than Apple for a laptop. As others said, corporate models from HP, Dell and Lenovo are generally a good choice.

BTW, I'm typing this on a HP zBook 15 G3 mobile workstation which I bought a year ago for something around $600 in as-new condition. Mine's got an i7-6820HQ 4C 2.7Ghz processor, 64GB of RAM (although this was an upgrade from the 8GB it came with), a very good 1920x1080 IPS panel and an Nvidia Quadro M2000 4GB graphics card (MXM module so it's replaceable) in addition to the intel GPU. One of the two M.2 NVMe slots holds a 1TB SSD (also an upgrade, the original SSD was 512GB). It also has a very good backlit keyboard and two Thunderbolt 3 ports. It's robust and sturdy, and can easily be repaired or upgraded.

There's a lot of good hardware on the used market.

[0db]

HP, Dell and Lenovo are generally a good choice

The new Lenovo X nano looks interesting.