'Linux'.. WOW, I'm almost toltally SOLD now!!!

[Monkeh]

You'll have to provide more than that.

You wish...

That you'd contribute, yes.

[DiTBho]

Thinkpads have gone to shit now

I have no experience with modern Thinkpads, but let me know: even the carbon line? even the new nano? 

[bd139]

Thinkpads have gone to shit now

I have no experience with modern Thinkpads, but let me know: even the carbon line? even the new nano? 

Anything T480 and later (2018/2019) has gone down the toilet. Only the non-S models have non soldered RAM and then you only get one slot.

[Ed.Kloonk]

Last week, I software revamped someone's lenovo from 2012. Solid.

[Bassman59]

These are just some facts to account:
- Apple products are way better than PCs (generics)
- Even  ¨branded" PCs are way below Apple hardware

There is no possible comparison
neither in hardware - software or even in price range.

I call bullshit. As someone who has serviced and repaired both, Apple and "Quality" generally don't go in the same sentence. Many models of Apple computers are plagued with build quality or design issues. You only need to look as far as Louis Rossmann's videos for a good cross section. Give me a Lenovo Thinkpad over a Macbook any day of the week!

How did Rossmann get to be this big hero? I don't get it.

[rsjsouza]

How did Rossmann get to be this big hero? I don't get it.

From what I saw, he was one of the few at the time to have practical information that dismantled Apple's reputation of uncompromised quality.

At the same time, he taught people to actually fix Apple's shortcomings through his youtube channel, enabling many others to be successful in this business.

Despite he is not perfect, this scores pretty high in my book - and apparently in many others' books as well.

[firewalker]

I am using Linux exclusively for about 20+ years now. Linux can be really frustrating. If you have the time to carefully select hardware you will be ok. The main issue is with laptops. I have a 14" dell (6 years) that everything works from day one. No hardware issues at all. I had to really carefully selected it though.

Another issue with the "Linux ecosystem" is the documentation. Or better the lack of it. I don't know if things is better in Windows and MacOS.

Now I must replace it. I will just buy a Thinkpad T495 hoping that everything will be ok.

Why I use Linux; It just happened that the first pc given to me, had Linux installed (I think Redhat). Now; I cant work efficiently in a non Linux machine.

Alexander.

[james_s]

You wash your mouth out with soap, young man!

Winders 3.1 was OK (barely) and it all went down hill from there.

3.1 was not even really an operating system, it was a graphical shell and memory manager that ran on top of DOS. I would argue that 95 was superior to 3.1, 98 was superior to 95, Win2k was a huge improvement over any of those, combining the best of NT (which was not really usable by home users) with the usability and gaming support of 9x. XP was in some ways an improvement over Win2k but mostly just in support for newer software. Vista gets a bad rap due to hardware at the time not being powerful enough and drivers not being ready when it shipped but after things caught up it was a solid and nicely polished OS. Win7 is essentially Vista with a few refinements and is excellent. Win8 was a complete train wreck, an unmitigated disaster that should never have seen the light of day. Win10 fixed a few things but in other ways, particularly the whole rolling release "Windows as a service" nonsense was another disaster, nearly unusable to me. I suffered through it for about a year at my former job and then my current employer gave me a Mac and I never touched Win10 again.

I still use Win7 on my daily driver at home, but everything else modern-ish is running Linux.

[Karel]

"What do you anticipate Microsoft will do next?"

Microsoft will switch to Linux and keep selling their software on top of Linux. And it will cost the Windows users as
much as before.
At the same time will the Linux community get face-stomped by hordes of Windows users, all trying to learn everything
there is to learn about Linux and in record-breaking time.
Some long-time Linux supporters will switch to Microsoft in a heart beat like cold-hearted back-stabbers, while others die
the slow death of the White Knight in the most epic drama the Linux community has ever seen, before the Linux
community itself disappears and we will all have turned into "the new Windows user".

Once it's all done and over, and Microsoft has taken over Linux with its hordes of Windows users, will you either be the
new slave of the Microsoft empire or you will have found refuge under a tiny bridge, just next to the one where all the
FreeBSD trolls live, and where you'll then be telling tales of Linux's past.

[Halcyon]

These are just some facts to account:
- Apple products are way better than PCs (generics)
- Even  ¨branded" PCs are way below Apple hardware

There is no possible comparison
neither in hardware - software or even in price range.

I call bullshit. As someone who has serviced and repaired both, Apple and "Quality" generally don't go in the same sentence. Many models of Apple computers are plagued with build quality or design issues. You only need to look as far as Louis Rossmann's videos for a good cross section. Give me a Lenovo Thinkpad over a Macbook any day of the week!

The "problem" with the PC market is that there is so many variables and to build a reliable, high quality PC takes quite a bit of skill and knowledge.

As for Microsoft, Windows has turned into a piece of shit ever since Windows 8 was released and it has barely gotten any better today.

That was true until recently. Thinkpads have gone to shit now.

1. Non removable battery with no purchasable replacement.
2. Glue
3. All the USB-C ports soldered onto the main board.
4. No separate charger port
5. PWM modulated backlit screens

This applies so many machines (including Apple). But I have a current Gen Thinkpad P1 and it's a brilliant machine.

None of it is glued together, in fact it's designed with serviceability and up-gradability in-mind. A few screws and the bottom cover lifts off. The RAM, SSDs, fans, battery etc.. are all accessible and easily serviceable/replaceable. Unlike many laptops (like Apple) where the components are soldered to the board.

My P1 also has a separate dedicated charger port (of course you can charge off USB-C if you want to). My proprietary Lenovo charger lives in my laptop bag and I almost always use that. At home, the dock connector also has a dedicated charge cable.

Not sure about the PWM screen, but it looks just perfect to me.

The P1 is not the slimmest nor lightest laptop you can buy, but for me, it's just the right amount of portability, performance and serviceability that I need and to be honest, it's still pretty darn thin and light for what you get.

[rsjsouza]

3.1 was not even really an operating system, it was a graphical shell and memory manager that ran on top of DOS.

95 was pretty much a more advanced shell with a better task scheduler and a better memory manager that finally had built-in protected mode but still running on top of a more advanced DOS as well. If you recall, DOS started the OS and, at the end of Autoexec.bat, is called "win" but never returned. 98 and Me had the same, but it was better hidden.

I would argue that 95 was superior to 3.1, 98 was superior to 95, Win2k was a huge improvement over any of those, combining the best of NT (which was not really usable by home users) with the usability and gaming support of 9x.

I had NT4 running games even in the newfangled "3D" chipsets (a 3DFX Voodoo2 IIRC), but you indeed needed an overpowered system for that (I had a dual Pentium II with 128MB at the time).

XP was in some ways an improvement over Win2k but mostly just in support for newer software.

XP had a much faster boot time (something that it was said at the time that MS stole from the Linux core kernel) and had much better support for hibernaton and standby, as well as dual monitor - things that, as a road warrior on a PIII laptop running 2K, were massive shortcomings. At home, 2K ran smoothly but XP naturally brought better support for games.

Vista gets a bad rap due to hardware at the time not being powerful enough and drivers not being ready when it shipped but after things caught up it was a solid and nicely polished OS. Win7 is essentially Vista with a few refinements and is excellent. Win8 was a complete train wreck, an unmitigated disaster that should never have seen the light of day.

Windows 8 is identical to vista: 8.0 was a very problematic OS but 8.1 is perfectly usable and stable - I have two laptops here running them as an extention of their lifetime. I expect to ditch them as Windows 10 will not run well on them.

Win10 fixed a few things but in other ways, particularly the whole rolling release "Windows as a service" nonsense was another disaster, nearly unusable to me.

I agree and also had a very bad experience with Windows 10 at home due to the whack-a-mole game of closing its gaps. Corporations with large and/or competent IT departments are capable of keeping it running more or less smoothly - I have been running 10 smoothly for a few years now but I can tell how much is filtered out (we have version 1909 still).

I still use Win7 on my daily driver at home, but everything else modern-ish is running Linux.

I have both: 7 and 8.1.

[GlennSprigg]

(OP here...)   WOW, I never wanted this to get into a shit fight! 
As a previously/still non-expert in anything non-Windows all my life, I mainly started this post as a result of hearing numerous people
over the years here, and elsewhere, to look-at/think about a Linux variation, as an alternative. (Not to mention the 'Mac' supporters!).
So, I've initially NOW set up 'Ubuntu-Mate 20.04' as a virtual machine, via 'VirtualBox', AND successfully set up a 'MacOS-Mojave' virtual
machine via 'VMWARE-Player', on my latest Win-10 Laptop. (2nd hand, but HIGH spec.!).  All are working fine at the moment!!!  I simply
wanted to 'educate' myself, about all I'm being/been told, and learn something NEW !!  And that has been achieved!!   

Re: 'Win-10'... I understand people's concerns today, and I was totally averse to using it up to date, until I had researched how to remove
ALL, (and I mean 'all') the crap/links/software/settings, so that it is NOW behaving like say an older 'Win-7' system, but with all the latest
'perks' and opperability. So I am 'now' perfectly at ease & confident with using it, in the way that I like, considering my age!  And I am TOTALLY
used to & proficient with dealing with all it's file-systems, including the occasional quirks lying there-in...

Re: 'Ubuntu-Mate 20.04'...  I am slowly understanding the 'apparent' simplicity, (especially when involving the 'numerous' builds/versions with
a 'myriad' of named styles), which often vary mainly in regards to their particular pertaining 'GUI' front-end!!  This 'diversity' does cause me a certain
amount of confusion, as well as not understanding all the 'choices' as a relatively new/prospective 'tinkerer' for an alternative to Windows!!   
I also 'think' I understand, (and HAVE experimented greatly in it's use!), where the POWER of using a 'Terminal' for manipulation/control/info, can
greatly enhance one's power/abilities to 'Get Things Done', outside of the particular variants 'GUI'...  I 'Get It'... However, for someone/user who is a
generally 'non-technical' in their background/thinking/abilities, I THINK they might struggle with even the simplest 'Non-Clickable' options/abilities!!   

Re: 'MacOS-Mojave'... (and all similar variants!)... I found the 'GUI' interface to be generally pleasant!... However, at 1st I was TOTALLY lost, in my
attempt to just simply just 'look' at a Drive, and see what is free!! (Yes, I know now how to...). Again there was totally different 'wording' for things I was
used to in 'Ms-Windows' but that's to be expected. (My bad!). Utilizing the 'Finder' app is a whole new kettle of fish!! (Never understood that analogy!).
I 'learnt' how to display hidden files etc... (YES I know to be careful !!!), and to delve into multiple normally un-viewable sub-directories, (I was a Windows
power-user, and wanted to know how!!)... The UPSHOT of what I was saying there, is that ONE BIG difference between Macs & M.S. seems to be the 'lack'
(sorry) of PROPER 'Un-Install' facilities?  W.T.F.?  One uses 'Finder' to locate an 'App', right-click it & send to the trash bin, or HOLD select an 'App' via various
means/displays, until it 'wiggles', and 'delete' it?? After only a cursory investigation with Google, indicates that NOT ALL files/mods are removed!! ??   

I have 'studied' how to do it, 'properly', (though unnecessarily long winded!), but I struggle to believe that Apple systems do NOT have a BUILT-IN app to
properly 'Un-Install' software, without having to use 3rd party apps??  I mean... Windows, with all it's faults, ALWAYS has an 'Un-Install', involving not only
the major directories/files, but including any changes/mods to any win/system files, not to mention the ubiquitous 'System Registry'. I don't understand...
Anyway... I have had, & am having fun, playing with & learning, like I never have before...   

[Marco]

Not sure about the PWM screen, but it looks just perfect to me.

It's 26 KHz, no one is going to be able to perceive that.

Do any displays even use a smoothed constant current supply? It would screw up the colours as you adjust the backlight. High frequency PWM is the obvious way to do it.

[bd139]

Not sure about the PWM screen, but it looks just perfect to me.

It's 26 KHz, no one is going to be able to perceive that.

Do any displays even use a smoothed constant current supply? It would screw up the colours as you adjust the backlight. High frequency PWM is the obvious way to do it.

Nominally 26KHz. Irritatingly the one I had would drop into audible range occasionally.

[james_s]

I briefly had some monitors at a former job that gave me an awful headache although I couldn't really put a finger on why at first. I figured out that they used PWM dimming at around 400Hz, it wasn't readily visible but I could certainly sense it. I ended up pulling a couple of the old monitors out of the recycle bin and went back to those. As an added benefit they were 1600x1200 vs 1600x1080 that all the newer ones are. I hate the trend of using cheap TV panels that are only 1080 vertical. That extra 120 lines doesn't sound like much but it's significant.

[wizard69]

This isn't always the case, a couple of years back Linux ended up stable on one of my laptops before Windows.    I've actually have had more trouble with laptop vendors not supporting their laptops correctly with BIOS updates.

That isn't to say laptops are perfect with Linux or any hardware for that matter.   Just that support for Linux is nowhere near as bad as it was a decade ago.

Wait until you installed it on physical machine and be greeted by a myriad of driver issues, worse on laptops with latest hardware.

Even the safest bet (say, Intel CPU with no discrete GPU) is not safe. The latest Linux 5.11 and Mesa 21.1 has issues driving a rotated display on Intel Iris iGPU with vertical sync enabled.

With enough commitment and time, it can be largely solved, but you just have to think the *nix way and keep constantly tinkering.

I'm actually stuck with all three OS 's to keep track of, Windows at work, and Mac OS and Linux at home.    I really think it is safe to say that Linux is only a few steps behind Mac OS as far as OS stability goes.

[wizard69]

LOL your funeral. That's insane. Even for a desktop user. No better than antivaxers.

At least an anti vaxer might have a good reason for their position, as not all of them are idiots.

[wizard69]

M1 Mac mini

I have a cluster of Mac-Mini
Four G1 units (PPC)
Four G2 units (x86 intel core duo dual)

I will add for sure four M1 units, but not now, for sure next year.
I think they are still "unripe" apples

M1's are crazy fast. Was getting better multi threaded compile times with LLVM than my Ryzen 3700X without it getting warm to the touch.

I'm not sure people really grasp how fast Apples M1's are and in the Mac Book Air they are passively cooled.    This actually makes Apple's lowest end laptops competitive with some of the higher end machines on the market right now.

My idea of a perfect laptop would be a Lenovo chassis with a ripe ARM processor, in the same performance class as an M1, built from the ground up to run Linux.

But yes, give it a couple of generations. There are TB, Bluetooth and display issues with them. It's a good first gen product though. They nearly nailed it.

I think that they nailed if good enough for the hardware they introduced it on.   M1 is no more perfect than any other processor, it just demonstrates what might be possible with a purpose built ARM based Linux laptop.    I can Actually see M1 class laptops with a few built in solar cells, much like many calculators these days, that use those cells to supplement the battery.

What Apples M1 indicates to me is just how badly the x86 world has stagnated.   I just imagine what could be done with a similar hardware in a machine designed to run Linux.   It would be an amazing machine.

[rsjsouza]

(OP here...)   WOW, I never wanted this to get into a shit fight! 

Are you new here?

I simply
wanted to 'educate' myself, about all I'm being/been told, and learn something NEW !!  And that has been achieved!!   

This is so gratifying; the virtual machines are quite a leap from the old days to start experimenting with such different OSes without having to spend a considerable amount of time with dual boots, partitions, drivers, etc.

Re: 'Win-10'... I understand people's concerns today, and I was totally averse to using it up to date, until I had researched how to remove
ALL, (and I mean 'all') the crap/links/software/settings, so that it is NOW behaving like say an older 'Win-7' system, but with all the latest
'perks' and opperability.

You give me hope. Since I use some Windows only utilities that have no counterpart in Linux, I have been toying with the idea of installing Windows 10 at home again but the number of hours spent in trying to plug its idiosyncracies in the past is still very present. Not to mention the $$$ for a new license.

Re: 'Ubuntu-Mate 20.04'...  I am slowly understanding the 'apparent' simplicity, (especially when involving the 'numerous' builds/versions with
a 'myriad' of named styles), which often vary mainly in regards to their particular pertaining 'GUI' front-end!!  This 'diversity' does cause me a certain
amount of confusion, as well as not understanding all the 'choices' as a relatively new/prospective 'tinkerer' for an alternative to Windows!!   
I also 'think' I understand, (and HAVE experimented greatly in it's use!), where the POWER of using a 'Terminal' for manipulation/control/info, can
greatly enhance one's power/abilities to 'Get Things Done', outside of the particular variants 'GUI'...  I 'Get It'... However, for someone/user who is a
generally 'non-technical' in their background/thinking/abilities, I THINK they might struggle with even the simplest 'Non-Clickable' options/abilities!!   

There is indeed a wide range of distros, GUIs and with varying degrees of support. Ubuntu is one of the distros I like and is well supported, but the terminal is where its strength lies and the GUI is indeed very limited in the customizations and settings department, which are drawbacks for the novice user. Once you get a system customized to your liking and/or fully operational, this reduces in importance and it becomes a "normal" GUI based OS.
The apllications also have a very high variability of quality and testing, but that is not an OS fault.

Re: 'MacOS-Mojave'... (and all similar variants!)... I found the 'GUI' interface to be generally pleasant!... However, at 1st I was TOTALLY lost, in my
attempt to just simply just 'look' at a Drive, and see what is free!! (Yes, I know now how to...). Again there was totally different 'wording' for things I was
used to in 'Ms-Windows' but that's to be expected. (My bad!). Utilizing the 'Finder' app is a whole new kettle of fish!! (Never understood that analogy!).
I 'learnt' how to display hidden files etc... (YES I know to be careful !!!), and to delve into multiple normally un-viewable sub-directories, (I was a Windows
power-user, and wanted to know how!!)...

When I started on macOS years ago I had to get some help from a friend that was a long time power user. In my complete ignorance at the time, I was able to show him so many non sensical things on the GUI that made him admit that Windows had it better in several instances. The weird flexing of keys to be pressed to perform a single PrtScr or a few other tasks is a complete loss for the novice, while the inability to set up a screen lock after a few minutes of system inactivity is impossible without Duckduckgo''ing and diving into the command line. A good GUI, but the competition caught up. 

The UPSHOT of what I was saying there, is that ONE BIG difference between Macs & M.S. seems to be the 'lack'
(sorry) of PROPER 'Un-Install' facilities?  W.T.F.?  One uses 'Finder' to locate an 'App', right-click it & send to the trash bin, or HOLD select an 'App' via various
means/displays, until it 'wiggles', and 'delete' it?? After only a cursory investigation with Google, indicates that NOT ALL files/mods are removed!! ??   

To be fair, a great deal of Windows applications have a poorly tested uninstall feature and leave a lot behind, especially on the wild west that is the System Registry. Not necessarily a fault of the OS, but its intricacy does not make things much easy. One of the most inexcusable things, however, is leave behind files and directories - to which several of them do, unfortunately.

Anyway... I have had, & am having fun, playing with & learning, like I never have before... 

And that is a great outcome! Congratulations! Keep the squirrels running in our brains...

[bd139]

Just remember you have the registry on Linux too now  (gsettings)

[rsjsouza]

What Apples M1 indicates to me is just how badly the x86 world has stagnated.   I just imagine what could be done with a similar hardware in a machine designed to run Linux.   It would be an amazing machine.

This was done before in many instances, where tablets are mostly exclusive ARM domain and chromebooks had a huge chunk of models running on this ISA. At least for chromebooks, I think the marketing machine of the big AMD/Intel corps managed to kill ARM almost completely.

[Marco]

I'm not sure people really grasp how fast Apples M1's

I'm not sure people grasp how badly node advantage and comparing intel processors optimized for speed to the M1 stacks the deck. Diminishing returns set in so badly with processors ... you can burn twice the power for 10% performance gain easy.

That's why 4800U is the only really fair comparison to M1 and at a node advantage the M1 ain't all that impressive architecturally. Apple's margins to be able to buy that node advantage certainly are impressive, good for them and that's all the consumer has to care about, but lets not exaggerate the architectural advantage.

[bd139]

It burned 23 watts doing what my 3700x used 180 watts to do and took 8% less time (total consumption by the entire box). Multi-core LLVM compilation.

That’s a very important architectural advantage. In fact the most important in 2021 as the majority of compute cost now is billed in amps on the server side.

[MIS42N]

LINUX - Lost In Numerous Undocumented eXtras.

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a Linux O/S. But there isn't one, there are hundreds. Wouldn't it be nice if programs could be installed on any Linux - but unless you compile from source, each flavour has a different package and installer. I wanted to install a serial terminal on two laptops. I ended up with two variants, one running gtkterm (preferred) and one running cutecom because the O/S that supported gtkterm wouldn't run on the other laptop. So even though the second laptop was older than the first, it needed a later and different O/S to work. And I couldn't find a gtkterm package for it. The first laptop has a serial port, but I found I could use a USB/serial device if I wanted. Just plug it in, it works. The second one only has USB, I have to plug the device in and modprobe ftdi_sio. Argggh!

I love that I have old machines that are still useful, and my server (now over 10 years old) is a Ubuntu install. But in the end I stick to Windows 7 for the family desktop, and Windows 10 for my development machine. I'd love to run Linux everywhere but when an install in Windows is download THE installation file and run it, it is just too hard to find an equivalent Linux package in the flavour you want, then hope it installs. Not enough hours in the day.

[james_s]

Well there kind of is, if you want one Linux to standardize on and you don't want to do a lot of tinkering just install Ubuntu and you're done. It's widely supported, just about any software you could want works on it out of the box, there are some things I don't like about it personally but it's hard to come up with a better distro for someone who wants that "it just works" out of the box experience.

I don't think there is any way to get the versatility and freedom offered by Linux without the fragmentation, but now that there are several mainstream distros that have gained widespread use this is not nearly the problem it was 10-15 years ago. I struggle to think of a popular Linux application that won't install on Ubuntu.