'Linux'.. WOW, I'm almost toltally SOLD now!!!

[Karel]

Look at, for example, the industrial grade EDA. They support Suse and Red Hat.
The same with all the tools for MCU firmware and FPGA development.
In practice, it also runs on Ubuntu and derivatives like Mint.

[MIS42N]

I struggle to think of a popular Linux application that won't install on Ubuntu.

I agree, but it requires more work. I do some programming for PIC processors, using MPLAB X. The way MPLAB X is structured, I thought maybe it was developed for Linux and ported to Windows. I use it under Windows 10, just install and run. Out of curiosity I asked the question of the Internet - here is a typical reply:

"Version MPLAB X works on Linux as well as Windows, so I decided to load it on my Laptop running Linux Mint.
Loading it is not quite as simple as doing it in Windows.
With windows, you download a .exe file, double click that, and the computer walks you through the rest.
With Linux, extra steps are required, and there are instructions on the web for these, but they miss out a few points – that would be obvious to Linux black-belts, but not to poor me."

another:

"The only difference I noticed is that you need to plug in PICkit3 before you start MPLAB X"

Some of my programs use GPS modules, and it is useful to see the satellite data. I downloaded VisualGPS, ran the installer, plugged in a USB/serial adapter, looked in Device Manager to see which port it was, ran the program. Maybe that simple with Linux, maybe not. If you can find an equivalent program. But do I want to spend time figuring it out - no.

My impression is Linux is almost there. If it were possible to harness all the brilliance that goes into all the Linux variants, and point it all in one direction, it would be the de facto standard. After all it is the basis for Android, Apple, Chromebook, routers, NAS, and just about anything that isn't based on the Intel processor. I look forward to the day it happens.

[Karel]

My impression is Linux is almost there.

Linux will never be "there". If you want something like windows, then use windows.
Windows is made for the masses, a big part of it are housewives, kids and gamers. Linux is made by engineers, for engineers.

If it were possible to harness all the brilliance that goes into all the Linux variants, and point it all in one direction, it would be the de facto standard.

That will never be the case. It's also a bad idea. No variants means no competition. And it's the competition that fuels innovation.

Apart from that, there are just a couple of mainstream distro's. The rest are either derivatives or niches. So, in practise, there isn't really a problem.

Also, it's not true that windows programs always install and work nicely. It happens many times that there's some lib missing or doesn't have the correct version.
Forums are full of questions from desperate people that have some weird windows problem and usually they have to dive into the registry and apply unknown commands
and pray it fixes their problem.

Windows is worse than Linux. It's just that most people are used to the weirdness of windows.
Not that I care. The desktop marketshare of Linux (+/-1%) is big enough to keep it floating.
For me, the idea of windows users migrating to Linux is a nightmare...

[madires]

Most linux distributions share a common package format, like deb or rpm. There are also tools for converting packages from one format into another, e.g. alien.

BTW, a few weeks ago I installed Debian on an Asus Eee PC (512MB RAM, 4GB flash disk) for fun and giggles. It was a smooth install - slow, but it's usable.

[DiTBho]

Oh well.

Do you need to use Solidworks? Linux doesn't support it, so use Windows.
Do you need to use Premiere? Linux sucks with it (and it also sucks with Audio), so use Windows.
Do you need to use FinalCut? Neither Windows nor Linux support it, so use MacOS.
Do you need to develop something that is GNU-dependent? MacOS is BSD-oriented, so use Linux.
Do you need to develop something on a SBC board? Well ... Linux runs on SBC boards
Do you need to develop something on some industrial board? Well ... WindowsCE can be interesting
Do you want to implement any paranoid-hardened server? OpenBSD can satisfy the paranoia of the most paranoid person in the world
Do you need something nice to have fun with? Look at ArOS or Haiku, but forget applications because there are just a few

At the end of the day, you need all of these OSs, I said ALL of them 

[DiTBho]

Also, it's not true that windows programs always install and work nicely.

I think the situation is worse on Linux, when you change the .so libraries you can break links. On Gentoo this is a serious problem since you can easily break soft-link pointing to .so libraries when you emerge new stuff; at least Windows does native support layers of legacy libraries without any soft/hard link so it's harder to break something.

Windows is even better when applications are compiled as "portable", basically it's the same trick on Linux and MacOS when applications are compiled as "static"

No dependencies with system libraries is better, but there is a price to pay: it consumes more ram and space on the hard-drive.

[madires]

You can have old and new libs in parallel without any problem. And if you need a special environment you can use LD_LIBRARY_PATH for example.

[PKTKS]

You can have old and new libs in parallel without any problem. And if you need a special environment you can use LD_LIBRARY_PATH for example.

TRUE. An absolute true elsewhere on Linux.

What is wrong/right  on above comments is:
- *NIX was meant to be used by competent people
- such folks are capable to make decisions and proper service tasks
- There is absolute *NO WAY* to do just "point click install ..." in *NIX
- There is a very clear trend to try this requiring:
  -- A complete ditch of the sysadmin replacing that critical part w/systemd
  --  a complete decommission of Xorg replacing it w/non network aware and
      totally obscure display manager so DRM can be placed on top
  -- A complete ditch of safety practices (aka kernel ring tools) so "daemons"
    can be placed and managed on user level.. having obvious security holes.

So. the above comment holds true: *NIX is made by serious people
aimed to suit serious day by day use where a sysadmin is required.

You can easily run a LIBC version 5 compiled application just placing
the all libs in a proper directory and pointing that LD_LIBRARY_PATH
the  shell is self aware and self contained - is does not require anything
other than this.

BTW you can compress a WHOLE *NIX SYSTEM (W/LIBS + TOOLS) in
a small compact image..

Have a look on the TOTAL MESS OF LEGACY CRIPPLED AND BUGGY DLLs
are  placed on each MSWin  sub directory.

it is a total unmanageable mess which requires ODD weird registry keys
and when they work... the few times and apps are crippled and full of faults..

The bottom line is that:
-  THEY WILL PRIVATIZE and PATRONIZE LINUX
- not by chance systemd  python and wayland are being heavily pushed ..
- the GNU tools and proper sysadmin tools are WAY TOO MUCH POWERFUL to let them there.

Have a look at how the CARTEL will run *NIX tools on top of MSWIN
using a VM and so called crippled WSL

https://www.osnews.com/story/133281/ibm-cobol-for-linux-on-x86-1-1-brings-cobol-capabilities-to-linux/

Read like this:

IBM COBOL  for (UBUNTU) (aka LINUX) on x86  running on WINDOWS WSL

and that is it :  LINUX apps for WINDOWS WSL..

if that makes any reasonable sense..

That same CARTEL already  subverted and diverted *NIX to their particular buz.

They have control over semicond. and common goals.
UEFI and secure keys are another piece on that CARTEL puzzle


Paul

[DiTBho]

You can have old and new libs in parallel without any problem. And if you need a special environment you can use LD_LIBRARY_PATH for example.

This usually works for multi-libraries not for multi-version-of-the-same-libraries. The trick is about putting libraries in different folders and set the environment accordingly, it's practically used for multi-lib profiles (e.g. softfloat vs hardfloat, or 32bit vs 64bit, or glibc vs uclibc vs MUSL), unfortunately the problem with Distro like Gentoo is not solved because the issue is related to how the upgrading software manages soft and hard links to ".so" files: since it's made through soft and hard link, it can break during the install procedure, and you have to figure out exactly what happened in order to fix it.

For example, look at this

Code: [Select]

/usr/lib/libzzip.so -> libzzip-0.so.13.0.60

libzzip.so is a link which points to libzzip-0.so.13.0.60, which is actually the binary of the dynamic library
What can happen if I do emerge a new  libzzip, say  libzzip-0.so.14.0.0, and during the install, something removes the old libzzip-0.so.13.0.60 but doesn't link libzzip.so to the new libzzip-0.so.14.0.0 ?

Code: [Select]

/usr/lib/libzzip.so -> dead_link

It is not an unsolvable problem, I have seen and solved hundreds of times over the last 20 years, my point is only that it can consume hours to understand what went wrong.

[DiTBho]

Have a look on the TOTAL MESS OF LEGACY CRIPPLED AND BUGGY DLLs
are  placed on each MSWin  sub directory.

Have a look here: I am running Avocet compilers on Windows 10 
They were released as 16-bit applications for windows 3.1 many many years ago.

I cannot run a similar software designed for Linux-2.0, unless I make a mini-root, or better, unless I put all the files and libraries into a QEMU/x86 VM with all the old libraries and kernel.

I have four mini-root here supporting legacy kernel 2.6 software, they work nicely, but things for kernel 2.4 and 2.0 have so many troubles that it's simpler to have them in a VM.

[bd139]

Just a point: the guys who designed Unix didn’t introduce shared libraries. In fact everything was statically compiled. The only thing that was an interface was the kernel API and ABI. The same is true of the latest thing that came out of their stable: Go.

Shared libraries were a cost consideration when stdlibs started getting bloated and RAM was expensive and were introduced to the n commercial Unix variants.

Linux kernel ABI and API is very stable since ELF was introduced so mostly stuff will run that is that old, if it’s statically linked. The rest of the crapshoot is mostly UI toolkit issues from experience.

But yes you have to give Microsoft their due on this one: they put a hell of a lot of effort into making old stuff work down to allowing API bugs to exist through compatibility layer. I’m regularly impressed if I’m honest. 

[DiTBho]

(yup, a lot of the old stuff is ecoff or aout, not elf, see executable file formats, that's why I need a VM)

[rsjsouza]

- *NIX was meant to be used by competent people

Incompetent developers make incompetent software. Installers also.
Android is Linux and is used by a significant amount of world's population. Sure, it has layers and layers of garbage on top of it, but is still Linux and easy enough for someone to do single click install and add more garbage to their system.   

- There is absolute *NO WAY* to do just "point click install ..." in *NIX

This is not true even for desktops. I use Code Composer Studio and it is a single click installer. Q4OS also has quite a few installers that are single click wrappers. Ubuntu software store also does a lot of that as well.

Have a look on the TOTAL MESS OF LEGACY CRIPPLED AND BUGGY DLLs
are  placed on each MSWin  sub directory.

Microsoft support for legacy software is quite good. Sure, there are gaps here and there, but I am able to run quite ancient software (20+ years old) in modern versions.

Microsoft is not perfect in any way, but they have their high points as well, just like Linux, BSD, macOS, etc. 

[PKTKS]

- ANDROID *may be* very very long related to the Linux kernel
- But honestly there is no possible way to recognize *NIX on top of that ..

- Sure we can "point and click and install.." a lot of stuff...
- I do that when deploying MINT for those sick of MS...
- it works...   i call that  the "BANANA BUNTU SOLUTION.."

OK it works..  but we are  talking serious..

And seriously? no competent folk will do that on a serious machine...
It is just not meant for that.

Paul

[PKTKS]

Have a look on the TOTAL MESS OF LEGACY CRIPPLED AND BUGGY DLLs
are  placed on each MSWin  sub directory.

Have a look here: I am running Avocet compilers on Windows 10 
They were released as 16-bit applications for windows 3.1 many many years ago.

I cannot run a similar software designed for Linux-2.0, unless I make a mini-root, or better, unless I put all the files and libraries into a QEMU/x86 VM with all the old libraries and kernel.

I have four mini-root here supporting legacy kernel 2.6 software, they work nicely, but things for kernel 2.4 and 2.0 have so many troubles that it's simpler to have them in a VM.

Try OpenWatcom.

It runs native on LINUX   producing 16 and 32 bit apps
for C/C++ and FORTRAN

Code: [Select]

Open Watcom C/C++ x86 16-bit Compile and Link Utility
Version 2.0 beta Apr  2 2015 11:06:47 (32-bit)
Copyright (c) 2002-2015 The Open Watcom Contributors. All Rights Reserved.
Portions Copyright (c) 1988-2002 Sybase, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Source code is available under the Sybase Open Watcom Public License.
See http://www.openwatcom.org/ for details.

Open Watcom FORTRAN 77 x86 16-bit Optimizing Compiler
Version 2.0 beta Apr  2 2015 10:59:26 (32-bit)
Copyright (c) 2002-2015 The Open Watcom Contributors. All Rights Reserved.
Portions Copyright (c) 1984-2002 Sybase, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Source code is available under the Sybase Open Watcom Public License.
See http://www.openwatcom.org/ for details.


Just from my terminal..

Running LINUX with my own LIBC compiled tool set
free from those definitions and versioning problems..

Paul

[madires]

Code: [Select]

/usr/lib/libzzip.so -> dead_link

It is not an unsolvable problem, I have seen and solved hundreds of times over the last 20 years, my point is only that it can consume hours to understand what went wrong.

I haven't seen such an issue for a long time despite keeping some old/obsolete libs and doing multiple dist upgrades.

[madires]

Android is Linux and is used by a significant amount of world's population. Sure, it has layers and layers of garbage on top of it, but is still Linux and easy enough for someone to do single click install and add more garbage to their system.   

I think it would be more appropriate to say that Android is based on linux since Google took only a subset of the kernel (and features).

[GlennSprigg]

Firstly, in answer to 'rsjsouza', (about 6 or 8 comments back!)....
I really really thank you, for your in-depth and verbose response & comments, regarding my prior post/comment!!!   
As you probably know, I'm a real 'newbie' in regards to non-Windows O.S.'s etc, and your thoughts were VERY much appreciated mate!...

To ALL though, and since then, I've learnt that in the 'Mac' system, their 'emphasis' seems to be on simplicity & user-friendliness, without either
the 'need' or desire (Apple don't WANT you to know too much!). You have a 'Document' you've written/created, what is the File-Name Extension??
(Don't worry about it... and look for it in 'Documents'!!).  I hate that forced control, but I understand the apparent 'simplicity' for general Home users. 
The 'File' system on a 'Mac' seems to be like looking under the hood of a modern car, for people that barely know how to put some petrol/diesel in it!...
THAT being said, I've noticed over the years, that places like 'Medical-Centres', (and all their networked Doctors etc.), GENERALLY all use MAC Systems?? 
So I guess that says something about the proven reliability etc of such systems....

I never initially understood why 'Apple' changed years ago to incorporating/using 'Intel' style CPU's ?  I'm not complaining either, as it means that 'we' are
now able to utilize such modern Virtualization Software...  such as 'VirtualBox'. Although!!... 'VirtualBox' is by FAR in-superior to VMWARE, even using the
totally free version called 'Player'. However, in that case, you DO need the 'UnLocker' patch, freely downloaded, to add such 'MacOS' Guests... 

To ' rsjsouza' again...  Regarding the 'availability' of Linux/Ubuntu software...  Yes, there is a myriad of generally needed/wanted software equivalents,
but of course anything 'specialized' is almost non-existent!!  Like my 'Embroidery' Software/Design requirements etc etc.  I've just noticed!, that there is
add-on software available, via various companies/names that can allow you to 'run' various 'MS-Windows' apps on 'Ubuntu' etc... that is something like,
(but somehow subtly different?) from using another 'VM' machine??  (Something like 'Wine', or other variances...)

Thank you all for your kind words & comments...  Glenn

[PKTKS]

Have a look here: I am running Avocet compilers on Windows 10 
They were released as 16-bit applications for windows 3.1 many many years ago.

I cannot run a similar software designed for Linux-2.0, unless I make a mini-root, or better, unless I put all the files and libraries into a QEMU/x86 VM with all the old libraries and kernel.

I have four mini-root here supporting legacy kernel 2.6 software, they work nicely, but things for kernel 2.4 and 2.0 have so many troubles that it's simpler to have them in a VM.

I will assume everybody knows already what is BGI.

How *old*  (and good) it is /was and how you would possibly run it today?

You are kidding ? no.  Compiled native in watcom linux using BGI interface

Running BGI on X11 terminal and graphics viewport...

WTF ?  nuts? 

No. attached.  simple as typing make.

Paul

[PKTKS]

(..)

 I've just noticed!, that there is
add-on software available, via various companies/names that can allow you to 'run' various 'MS-Windows' apps on 'Ubuntu' etc... that is something like,
(but somehow subtly different?) from using another 'VM' machine??  (Something like 'Wine', or other variances...)

Thank you all for your kind words & comments...  Glenn

YES.. there are 2 ways to run *ANYTHING* on *NIX  (including those apps mentioned
above like Premiere .. Studio*.. 3D that.. )

First way and always preferred is WINE: https://www.winehq.org/
- WINE  *IS NOT*  for newbies..  you *can*  point click  install..
- BUT proper results will vary a lot because there are issues with 32/64 libs

I have a totally dedicated 32bit system setup to run my 32bits well under WINE

Second alternative is "non free"  as you **NEED** a complete OS.
- you may try a VM like VirtualBox...
-  BUT!  VirtualBox is proprietary and requires some odd tidbits
- YOU HAVE QEMU a totally free alternative VM which runs perfectly..
- you need to install the whole shit OS to run your apps..

WINE in my case runs 99.99% of all i need.. flawlessly

But requires substantial proper setup to do that..

Paul

[bd139]

Or do what I do: run windows with Linux in VMs 

[PKTKS]

Or do what I do: run windows with Linux in VMs 

Thanks for the laugh..

TRUE indeed. 

There is no need to setup a VM anymore...

They already did that using WSL.

The "future"  of  linux as some say is MS-Linux.
(and the whole CARTEL in between .. )

things will shrink a lot this way

Paul

[bd139]

WSL is a VM. A naff buggy one built on Hyper-V which is Satan’s own hypervisor platform. I use virtualbox.

I have an entire 6 node kubernetes cluster, build agent and management node sitting here on my desktop.

[PKTKS]

WSL is a VM. A naff buggy one built on Hyper-V which is Satan’s own hypervisor platform. I use virtualbox.

I have an entire 6 node kubernetes cluster, build agent and management node sitting here on my desktop.

and I see things just converging to that kind of stuff....

They are putting money and people to (aka diverting devels) to
migrate the ecosystem for that..

Without drivers on *NIX and locked by UEFI keys..

Everybody will be likely forced to have such setups..

sooner or later.. it is depressing.

Paul

[bd139]

Doubt it will happen. Most of the bare metal OS and hypervisors out there these days are Linux.