Author Topic: Linux for the rest of US, Ubuntu's (un)friendliness, dual boot win10 and 18,4lts  (Read 9204 times)

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Offline Bicurico

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I have had my share of Windows/Ubuntu parallel installation.

My solution to all of this: I nowadays use VirtualBox and just install Ubuntu inside it. That works surprisingly well! And if something breaks, I can restore the image or install a new one in no time. Also, I normally just keep the current session when I shutdown VirtualBox. A restart is rather quick and I can continue where I left. The best of it all is that I copied the container to my laptop, too. So I have the same Ubuntu machine on both computers.

USB devices can be passed onto the virtual machine and that even works quite well for RTL-SDR based devices.

I would not recommend a dual Windows/Ubuntu boot at this time, as you might actually corrupt your whole Windows installation.

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Mechatrommer

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the Win7Pro64bit just got installed on the other computer, after the DL DVD arrived and got it burned few minutes ago, see how painful it is? if need linux? maybe i'll create another partition for it, or just install another SSD. hit F9 to select boot and install mybuntu. iirc the last time i can dual boot by installing mybuntu later, after the windows got installed. what do you expect? that Microsoft recognize/authenticate/certified Linux? what a dream.
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Offline Bicurico

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Actually, with current Windows 10 1903 you can have a UBUNTU shell!

If you install a X Windows server, you can run any X11 Ubuntu application directly on Windows 10.

https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-ubuntu-on-windows#0

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3055403/windows-10s-bash-shell-can-run-graphical-linux-applications-with-this-trick.html

No need to dream!

Regards,
Vitor

Offline Electro Detective

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Offline BravoV

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Actually, with current Windows 10 1903 you can have a UBUNTU shell!

If you install a X Windows server, you can run any X11 Ubuntu application directly on Windows 10.

https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-ubuntu-on-windows#0

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3055403/windows-10s-bash-shell-can-run-graphical-linux-applications-with-this-trick.html

No need to dream!

Regards,
Vitor

I assume you are also aware, that there is always "a catch" , right ?  ;)

Online nctnico

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Getting two operating systems to coexist on the same hard drive has never been easy, and Windows makes no attempt to coexist peacefully, in fact some suggest that it makes this deliberately as difficult as possible.

My advice is install each OS onto its own hard drive, drives are insanely cheap, even modest SSDs have gotten quite cheap. Once you've had Linux going for a while you may well find you have little reason to go back, and it's trivial to boot Windows in a VM within Linux for those applications that really need Windows. VirtualBox is fantastic.
IMHO Virtualbox is a much better route than using dual boot. You can use both OSses at the same time without needing any hassle with dual boot and partitioning.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Bicurico

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Actually, with current Windows 10 1903 you can have a UBUNTU shell!

If you install a X Windows server, you can run any X11 Ubuntu application directly on Windows 10.

https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-ubuntu-on-windows#0

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3055403/windows-10s-bash-shell-can-run-graphical-linux-applications-with-this-trick.html

No need to dream!

Regards,
Vitor

I assume you are also aware, that there is always "a catch" , right ?  ;)

Actually, I am not aware of what the catch might be, as I do prefer to run Ubuntu in VirtualBox.


Offline BravoV

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Actually, with current Windows 10 1903 you can have a UBUNTU shell!

If you install a X Windows server, you can run any X11 Ubuntu application directly on Windows 10.

https://tutorials.ubuntu.com/tutorial/tutorial-ubuntu-on-windows#0

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10

https://www.pcworld.com/article/3055403/windows-10s-bash-shell-can-run-graphical-linux-applications-with-this-trick.html

No need to dream!

Regards,
Vitor

I assume you are also aware, that there is always "a catch" , right ?  ;)

Actually, I am not aware of what the catch might be, as I do prefer to run Ubuntu in VirtualBox.

As linux noob, I don't know the exhaustive list, but one thing I know is Virtual KVM (VFIO, KVM and QEMU or IOMMU Para-Virtualization etc), not sure if this is the right terms.

Its started from our resident forum's admin "Gnif" work that motivated me to move to Linux at that time because of his work (Read -> HERE : Headless PCIe Passthrough), as I invested quite powerful Ryzen machine.

The plan is actually reverse from your suggestion, running Windows (near native speed even for gaming  8)) on top of Linux. This is for me, is an almost ideal solution for moving to Linux, but alas, I had problem and postponed it until now.

Offline Bicurico

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So your remark was actually not valid for my statement: you can, as an option, run UBUNTU shell and even X11 applications right on plain Windows! I don't see any cath here, apart from obvious potential compatibility issues.

The other way around is possible, also. The WINE project recreated (not emulated/copied) the Windows libraries. However, there is a long road to go, ascompatibility is stil low.

Anyway, I don't understand where the problem is: just run Linux as a virtual machine inside Windows or run Windows as a virtual machine inside Linux.

You can share files using shared folders and pass access to most USB devices. Works pretty well, actually.

Regads,
Vitor

Offline Ampera

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Here's the catches for WSL:

Windows 10 only (obviously)
64-bit binaries only
X is possible, but good luck getting much in the way of randr and hardware accelerated anything. You're basically limited to programs that can communicate solely in X.
All sessions are Windows Store only.
You have very little direct hardware access, emulated or otherwise compared to a VM
Limited distro selection (though this is I believe circumventable by an on-the-fly distro swap, don't know, never attempted it)
No Windows integration outside of filesystem access, as opposed to MSYS2 & Cygwin, which can bring Unix apps to your Windows environment, and even desktop.

If you have Linux servers/daemons you want to run on your machine that don't have MSYS2/Cygwin support, then it might be a lighter weight alternative to a VM, but compared to a full fat Linux install direct on hardware, you're not getting anywhere /near/ the software/hardware support, making it in a way more like Wine, just that nobody had to reverse engineer Linux.

I'm noticing a distinct pattern here anyways, Windows people are making assumptions about Linux and Linux people, and a lot of them are simply not true. I'm not here to convert anybody, because that's stupid, but what is even stupider is when people bash a system for stuff that straight up isn't true, usually because they got intimidated by an installer that asked too many scary questions.
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Offline magic

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How the f#uck I'm supposed to know what partitions to create, how many, and what's the mount point?
I know that there are guides on the net regarding this, but why, I mean WHY the geniuses at Ubuntu didn't think of doing it somehow easier for the first time potential convert?
Couldn't the installer somehow interactively guided you through the process? Is it to difficult a programming task in 2019?
Or is the secret goal of all the Ubuntu programmers to keep the Linux acceptance at below 1.5% mark?
Welcome to the club of n00b00nt00 haters, you aren't alone in thinking they are joke.
Install Gentoo. At least it comes with documentation and some installation instructions.
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Offline BravoV

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So your remark was actually not valid for my statement: you can, as an option, run UBUNTU shell and even X11 applications right on plain Windows! I don't see any cath here, apart from obvious potential compatibility issues.

The other way around is possible, also. The WINE project recreated (not emulated/copied) the Windows libraries. However, there is a long road to go, ascompatibility is stil low.

Anyway, I don't understand where the problem is: just run Linux as a virtual machine inside Windows or run Windows as a virtual machine inside Linux.

You can share files using shared folders and pass access to most USB devices. Works pretty well, actually.

Regads,
Vitor

I'm currently running on Windows 7, seeing & experiencing 8 and 10 just makes me cringe.

Yes, I'm moving out of Windows, hence don't want it running with encapsulated Linux, but the other way around.

Its not I'm afraid of learning or scared of command line, I consider my self power user, spent probably weeks or months tweaking in DOS era like CONFIG.SYS, AUTOEXEC.BAT, on early Windows like WIN.INI, SYSTEM.INI and Windows registry, and wrote thousand lines of .BAT/,CMD batch file in the past.

Its just currently I can not afford to be suck into hours/days and probably weeks of learning and tinkering Linux, yes, I'm an addict into that kind of stuffs, and also I can choose the hardway, by just killing Windows totally, and switch hard start from zero in Linux, but that is not possible, as I need Windows machine in order to feed my family as my business relies on it.

So my "wish", the path of dumping Windows is to have Linux base OS, don't tweak it, just want it to boot and launch Windows virtualization at early stage, and from there its my believe I will start slowly to get to use and live in Linux environment.

I can afford second machine to air gap Windows and Linux, but it will be pointless as I'm aware of my own weakness, the Linux will be left out in the cold mostly.  :palm:

In the past I could afford spending weeks or months tinkering with OS, re-format/install again and again, its just now its not possible even I really don't mind doing it at all as I love it.  ::)

Offline Bicurico

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Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.

No, you still don't get it.

Don't want to run Linux on top of Windows, period.

Offline hamster_nz

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^^ Why on earth would you want to run linux on top of windows?   :palm:

I have a corporate PC so don't have the luxury of nuking it.

With Ubuntu under Windows Subsystem for Linux I can:

* use a decent SSH and scp client

* clone Git repos and work on code, then compile with GCC. The binaries can be SCPed up to cloud servers and still run

* tinker with the utilities locally, grep/awk/sed and so on, after pulling down files from cloud servers

* can use Linux file utilities on files under /mnt/c/Users/

* write quick hacks.

The good thing is that it is always there. One click and a second for the window to open.

When this isn't enough (usually whem I need a GUI  based program) I do have my own PCs running Linux natively, but only use them once in a while.
Gaze not into the abyss, lest you become recognized as an abyss domain expert, and they expect you keep gazing into the damn thing.
 

Offline TheNewLab

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Hey,
My 2 cents.
I have used various operating systems for years. Regarding dual booting with Ubuntu 18.04LTS and Windows 10.
Do not make the partitions for Linux before installing. 2nd, I know this is old school, but try installing Ubuntu from a Live DVD.

I have installed Ubuntu and Linux mint dual booting with both Windows 10 and Windows 7.

My procedure is this:
1.) make sure you have windows installed 1st.
2.) Do NOT re-partition.
3.) Load the Live DVD
4.)enter install
5.)When you get to the install option. USE
"Install without removing windows. ..forgot exact language ("beside"? "with windows"?) whatever
6.) Then run the default install. include that "proprietary" additional items. Install with WiFi/internet connected.

The installer will install Linux beside windows in the empty space. it will set up the different Linux file format and install the Grub partition that will include the Windows option when you start up the machine each time.
I have tired and used both the default file format and the LVM format. I have had no problem with it.

I would suggest that you back up your HDD/SSD drive with windows only cloned to a backup drive. just in case. I have had one instance where windows 7, got damaged. I just wiped that drive. cloned the windows only drive to the disk, then re-installed windows, and reinstalled the Linux. both OS's with all settings set and additional apps included in the backup drives.

Now the startup screen will show Linux as the 1st choice and windows as the alternate choice. no big deal.
I have also adjusted the size of the partitions using GParted app in Linux and have no problem.

If you are still having difficulty, PM me with a detailed list of steps you have taken and the problem(s) that occurred. I will do my best to help you.

An aside.
 I have the Electronics related apps for test equipment installed on windows and on Linux using WINE. Some work fine on Linux, others don't so I use windows. No big deal.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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^^ Why on earth would you want to run linux on top of windows?   :palm:

I have a corporate PC so don't have the luxury of nuking it.
(...)

Yep. That's one good reason. In many companies other than the ultra-small ones, you can't even install anything on the company's PCs other than the OS supported by the IT department. So if this is Windows, which is still pretty often, your only option is to run other OSs as virtual machines.

Now if you have the luxury to have additional gear, you can also have a dedicated Linux "box", which you access from the network. This is what I do. I built small machines for Linux work that are headless (no monitor, no keyboard, just ethernet connection...) It won't cost you a fortune. As an example, one I have is in a small, passively-cooled enclosure, with a thin-mini-itx motherboard, 16GB RAM and a Core i7/4790S. Those draw little power, can be 100% passively cooled (never overheated!), and are still pretty powerful. Small, low-power, no noise. No issue. No virtual layers.
 

Online nctnico

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Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.
No, you still don't get it.

Don't want to run Linux on top of Windows, period.
Then install Linux and run Windows in a VM. Any other way like dual boot is more difficult in terms of installing AND you can't use both OSses at the same time. A VM gets you the best of both worlds.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Bicurico

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Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.

No, you still don't get it.

Don't want to run Linux on top of Windows, period.

You did not understand me:

Install Linux and run Windows inside VirtualBox.

Look a few post up from the one you quoted. It works any way around.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 07:52:35 pm by Bicurico »
 

Offline eugenenine

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Try calculate the time spent fiddling, swearing, emotional moments, and not to mention accidents say like mistakenly wiped out your important data partition and etc, I believe it will be cheaper just to sell your soul buy Windows license.


One of the many reasons I switched from Windows to Linux is because it took so much work keeping windows working.  My wife uses her windows laptop maybe once or twice a month and I usually have to fix something, I used my Linux laptop daily and can't even remember when the last time was I had to fix something.
 
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Offline techman-001

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Install Linux and run Windows inside VirtualBox.


That's right, no one in their right mind runs Linux UNDER Windows.

That's like robbing the armored car after it leaves the bank but before it has collected the money  :palm:

I've personally looked after full resource Linux Zeon servers with Kvm/Qemu Virtual machines and iscsi data stores running guest  Window Servers. That way businesses can run their proprietary Windows only applications (such as 'Medical Director' in General Medical Practices that turn over $millions a year) with reliability.

They have the Windows images backed up under Linux so if a Windows server shi*ts itself, they can have it back up in minutes, no Windows re installs needed.

The days of business owners spending sleepless nights worrying if a Windows crash is going to bring their business down have been over for a long time, thanks to Linux and virtual machines.
 

Online nctnico

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The days of business owners spending sleepless nights worrying if a Windows crash is going to bring their business down have been over for a long time, thanks to Linux and virtual machines.
That is one thing which is for sure. When Windows starts acting up I just roll back the VM and a few seconds later I'm back in business. No more endless trying to re-install drivers or try to fix the registry by going through several MS knowledge base articles. Needless to say the VM doesn't contain any data.

Still for trying Linux (or out of convenience) you can run Linux under Windows in a VM. I have that on my (very old) laptop and it works well.

In both cases an SSD is strongly recommended.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline BravoV

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Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.
No, you still don't get it.

Don't want to run Linux on top of Windows, period.
Then install Linux and run Windows in a VM. Any other way like dual boot is more difficult in terms of installing AND you can't use both OSses at the same time. A VM gets you the best of both worlds.

Yeah, thats the plan.


Please try VirtualBox with Linux inside. Run it in full screen mode and it behaves like a normal Linux installation.

No, you still don't get it.

Don't want to run Linux on top of Windows, period.

You did not understand me:

Install Linux and run Windows inside VirtualBox.

Look a few post up from the one you quoted. It works any way around.

My mistake, had brain fart moment, yes, thats it, actually I had QEMU in mind, still undecided yet.

Two main reasons :

- A 'stable' host OS that doesn't keep rebooting and/or updating by itself constantly, like Win10 does.  :--
- A smooth (hopefully) transition from Windows to Linux.

Note : I'm aware of Windows LTSB or LTSC , its just I just want to do it as simple as possible just using avg. Joe configuration for the OSes, like plain Jane Windows 10.

PS : Just read recently, that Windows 10 is now "automatically" hide the local account when the machine is connected to it's mothership.  :--
« Last Edit: October 02, 2019, 02:04:13 am by BravoV »
 

Offline BravoV

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Just read recently, that Windows 10 is now "automatically" hide the local account when the machine is connected to it's mothership.  :--

You still can set up a local account if:

1. You skip WiFi setup in post-installation window before setting up an account, or
2. You setup a MS account, then go to Settings and revert it back to local account. MSFT doesn't want you to do this by preventing you from creating a local account that's the same name as your MS account, so you have to create a temporary account, nuke the MS account, then create a new local account with your account name, then nuke the temporary account.

I'm aware of that trick, offline installation and account creation.

Its just after reading this -> Windows 10 users fume: Microsoft, where's our 'local account' option gone? ....

... the real question is ...

How do you know your local account that was created using above trick, will not be nuked by MS in the future , and one day after a stealthy update sent, and suddenly a dialog box pop up, forcing you to create one once you're online ?

Offline rrinker

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 Hmm, I've done this in the past with several versions of Ubuntu, with older machines and obviously long before Windows 10, and never had any problems getting a Linux partition created and dual boot with Windows. But then, I haven't tried recently, the last Ubuntu install I did was on a machine dedicated to Linux, no Windows in sight. So perhaps with Windows 7 and newer, this has changed.
 I'm not saying it was "just click next" simple, but neither was it too difficult to figure out how to do wt without wiping out my Windows install in the process. And do they no longer have the test drive feature, where you could boot your computer with an alternative media under Ubuntu and play around with it all you wanted without actually installing anything to the existing drive? That was always useful to see if your hardware was truly compatible or if you might need to find or (even worse) compile your own drivers. Not everyone can do this, but then not everyone can install Windows, either. Ubuntu or any other Linux distro is no magic bullet that even those whose computer skills are limited to emailing and browsing the web can install - but neither is Windows.
 There's also some misrepresentation back on the first page - current Windows DOES update in the background, and then notify (or if it's already past the 'busy' time you can configure, automatically) reboot if necessary. There's no requirement to stop working just to download and/or install the updates, just some things will not take effect until after a reboot, which is the case with any OS, you can't replace critical in-use core OS files while they are being used, the best you can do is flag them for replacement at boot, and then reboot. Yes, previous versions of Windows wouldn't pre-install, or install updates that didn't require a restart, until you actually triggered the updates manually (on a personal machine - corporate environments are different, as there are tools to manage this). If you're in a hurry, you cna manually rigger an update check after every restart until you are all caught up - but you don't have to. Same thing in any version of Linux I used, either let it automatically update in the background, or manually force and install updates if you didn't want to just wait and let it do its thing.
 I've also run Linux as a VM under Windows, with multiple methods - VMWare, Hyper-V, and VirtualBox. No dual boot, and for most things, it works quite well.

 
 


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