Author Topic: Linux OS for a new user  (Read 9026 times)

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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #125 on: September 06, 2019, 08:13:57 am »
"Normal" people don't care about the nitty-gritty technical details and the countless sub-components an OS is made of and how they all work together. To them, the "OS" is the "experience" they get from the visible part of the iceberg all that stuff results in them seeing.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #126 on: September 06, 2019, 08:14:40 am »
Just a thought. What is interesting is that Apple, Google, Microsoft have 'application stores' nowadays where you can find all kinds of applications. Most Linux distributions have had this for decades. About half an hour ago I wanted to mess around with some audio files. Google for recommended Linux audio editors, copy the name of one of the top 3 programs into the package manager and a few seconds later I have the software installed (from a trusted source) ready to go.

Yes, up to a point. Look what I posted upthread:

One thing I find annoying is that in Linux the files of a program are strewn all over the place. In Windows you pretty much have all the files in a folder in the "Program Files" folder but in Linux you can't find anything. I install something and I like to know where it went. Try to find the icon files and they can be anywhere. A disorganized mess. 

You can "install" something and be in the dark as to what to do next. Often it involves a slow whole-disk search for the name of the program and see if I can find something that might be the executable. In Windows I get a shortcut on the desktop and another in the start menu. And pretty much everything is contained in one folder in the Program Files folder.  In Linux Mint just finding an icon is a long adventure.
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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #127 on: September 06, 2019, 08:25:31 am »
Just a thought. What is interesting is that Apple, Google, Microsoft have 'application stores' nowadays where you can find all kinds of applications. Most Linux distributions have had this for decades. About half an hour ago I wanted to mess around with some audio files. Google for recommended Linux audio editors, copy the name of one of the top 3 programs into the package manager and a few seconds later I have the software installed (from a trusted source) ready to go.
The package manager is trash to find something though, and far from the experience you get with a "store" where you can search for things, get multiple results, check one out, see related items that may have something more relevant... and so far most attempts on linux have been subpar.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #128 on: September 06, 2019, 09:49:22 am »
The developers of Linux are much more interested in making a kernel than anything else. Your desktop environment is not developed by them, for them, or for the majority of users of the OS.
Thank you very much , finally a clear explanation why Linux is such piece of shit from user perspective.

What's clear about it? Developers of the kernel are the kernel developers. There must be half a dozen (probably more) desktop environments and the distributions do their customisations and package selection.

If you started a thread about just what constitutes "Linux" Oh Boy, hand me the popcorn. Is it a kernel, or kernel and filesystem or kernel, filesystem and desktop or a distribution with all the packages which gives you a choice of countless permutations of the above.

If you're referring to linux as a new user I'd say it is the distribution. But for me after several years as a user it is a lifestyle choice and Windows is not. Therefore Linux isn't a replacement for Windows. Windows gives you freedom from choice and the vast majority of Windows users are happy about that. Linux gives you freedom of choice and therein lies the font of internet forum squabbling.
 

Offline soldar

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #129 on: September 06, 2019, 09:58:09 am »
... it is a lifestyle choice and Windows is not.

Most people do not want to join a cult; they just want a computer that works simply.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #130 on: September 06, 2019, 10:17:52 am »
... it is a lifestyle choice and Windows is not.

Most people do not want to join a cult; they just want a computer that works simply.

Unfortunately, such a computer doesn't exist. At least not one that can perform the usual tasks.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2019, 02:22:13 pm »
For me the decision to start using Linux was a matter of (a) making optimal use of my older hardware, (b) not wanting to be stagnating in an old Windows version, and (c) wanting to use free software/open-source (FOSS) as much as possible. It was worth it to me to climb whatever learning curve I had to go through to save money which I would have otherwise had to work for to pay for everything I needed to stay on the latest version of Windows.

I get hand-me down laptops from friends, typically who use Windows and find the machines so sluggish after a few years they are ready to chuck them and buy a new computer. Saving these computers from landfill is one objective, but also my kids need computers for school and I want them using the most secure and speedy systems. How do I do this with computers that range from 5-10 years old, that originally shipped with Windows XP, Win Vista or maybe Win 7?

The answer is to install some Linux distro on these machines. It speeds up the system tremendously. I can be assured to be on the latest patched machine and I keep updating to catch any potential vulnerabilities. I have tons of FOSS that gives myself and my kids productivity tools, and it is preferable to using a ChromeBook where they need to constantly be online or use cloud-based apps for everything, and hand over their privacy to 3rd parties or get ads.

Could I put Windows 10 on these 5-10 year old machines? Yes probably. I recently upgraded all my office to Win10 using many of the original computers that are close to 10 years old. Clearly I need Win10 at my office because of proprietary software I need to run that is only available on Windows. Previously for a while I had Linux on the office computers with WinXPMode in a VM to run the software. It was time to update for security and other reasons, and I was pleasantly surprised that Win10 was fairly easy to install and the machines didn't take much of a performance hit. I was not going to try and run Win10 in a VM, then it would have been very sluggish.

But if Linux works faster with less resources needed on my home and kids laptops, and we can do everything we need to do, why not? But this is not a debate as to the superiority of one OS versus another. It is to point out how important it is that we DO HAVE a choice! Let us not take this for granted! In a world dominated by Microsoft and Apple, I say HURRAY to having a free 3rd party OS that has many iterations, customizations, versions, desktop environment options and huge library of software that gives people freedom to do their computer work any way they want!  :-+

[EDIT:]
Not to mention whenever I install Win10 on a machine it nags me to buy a license or else I have to find some old Win7 or 8 key to register it and hope it is not being abused out in the wild (and Microsoft could pull the plug on the "free" upgrade path anytime, it was supposed to already be pulled). Most machines these days don't even have a sticker, they are OEM installed in the BIOS so good luck with that. Yes I can use Win10 with the water-mark but it is annoying otherwise ads galore, lack of customization or else fork over money.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 03:18:26 pm by edy »
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Offline james_s

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2019, 04:01:17 pm »
I don't really find Linux to be appreciably faster or less resource intensive than Windows, I mean you can strip it down to make it faster but Win10 is already rather stripped down and barren, and certainly you can load Linux up with all the fancy eye candy if you wish to. What I like most about it is the freedom, no license keys, no activation, no telemetry or other BS, no lock-in, no baked in marketing, it is far more resistant to malware and viruses, and perhaps best of all, the updates are for the most part painless and non-intrusive while in Win10 they are a huge pain point and often precisely what they do is obfuscated. I do not trust Windows Update anymore, in my mind is is on par with random sketchy software downloaded from China or Russia.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #133 on: September 06, 2019, 04:50:13 pm »
Windows is a virus with a login prompt.
 

Offline ElektroQuark

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #134 on: September 06, 2019, 04:53:11 pm »
Windows is a virus with a login prompt.

You can ALWAYS turn off the login.

Offline Halcyon

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2019, 01:12:39 am »
Win10 is already rather stripped down and barren

I wouldn't exactly call 25+GB for a clean install "stripped down". I actually find Windows 10 quite bloated.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2019, 01:46:15 am »
Just a thought. What is interesting is that Apple, Google, Microsoft have 'application stores' nowadays where you can find all kinds of applications. Most Linux distributions have had this for decades. About half an hour ago I wanted to mess around with some audio files. Google for recommended Linux audio editors, copy the name of one of the top 3 programs into the package manager and a few seconds later I have the software installed (from a trusted source) ready to go.
The package manager is trash to find something though, and far from the experience you get with a "store" where you can search for things, get multiple results, check one out, see related items that may have something more relevant... and so far most attempts on linux have been subpar.
When it comes to selecting Linux software packages Google does that for you. It finds pages with reviews of tools including pros and cons and some hands-on experience. Selecting the tool which suits you most is very easy that way. Works for me every time.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2019, 07:03:47 am »
Not to mention whenever I install Win10 on a machine it nags me to buy a license or else I have to find some old Win7 or 8 key to register it and hope it is not being abused out in the wild
Or you could just buy a repurposed transferrable Win10 Pro volume key, which sells for $3-5 on eBay. Got a good dozen of PCs using that.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2019, 07:58:51 am »
Not to mention whenever I install Win10 on a machine it nags me to buy a license or else I have to find some old Win7 or 8 key to register it and hope it is not being abused out in the wild
Or you could just buy a repurposed transferrable Win10 Pro volume key, which sells for $3-5 on eBay. Got a good dozen of PCs using that.

Did you install the latest update 1903?  >:D

I noticed that the activation was revoked for Win 10 Ent (legitimate version!) after the update and need to do it again. I will not be surprised if MS ask to call a customer service next time  ;D
 

Offline Jookia

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #139 on: September 07, 2019, 09:18:45 am »
Not to mention whenever I install Win10 on a machine it nags me to buy a license or else I have to find some old Win7 or 8 key to register it and hope it is not being abused out in the wild
Or you could just buy a repurposed transferrable Win10 Pro volume key, which sells for $3-5 on eBay. Got a good dozen of PCs using that.

The only legitimate way to get a Windows 10 key is through buying it retail or OEM with a computer build at designated Microsoft resellers.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #140 on: September 07, 2019, 09:25:56 am »
Did you install the latest update 1903?  >:D
Yes all of them are current, and some were activated with 1903 already on.

The only legitimate way to get a Windows 10 key is through buying it retail or OEM with a computer build at designated Microsoft resellers.
The resale of transferrable keys from decommissioned machines has been happening for multiple years, if MS didn't like it it would have been stopped long ago.
 

Offline Jookia

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #141 on: September 07, 2019, 09:30:31 am »
The only legitimate way to get a Windows 10 key is through buying it retail or OEM with a computer build at designated Microsoft resellers.
The resale of transferrable keys from decommissioned machines has been happening for multiple years, if MS didn't like it it would have been stopped long ago.

It's a gray area, but not something you want to play with if you need to have legitimate software on your machines.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #142 on: September 07, 2019, 09:39:00 am »
I know no home user who cares about that, as long as they have an activated copy they're happy.
I'm not talking about professional environments, neither is this thread.
 

Offline tinhead

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #143 on: September 07, 2019, 09:51:25 am »
That's why I recommend trying out WSL which allows you to run Linux binaries within Windows. It basically "installs" Ubuntu, so you can start using "apt get" to install software right away.

Unfortunately WSL … no 32-bit binary support

there is support for 32bit in WSL2 out of the box and in WSL via this trick -> https://github.com/microsoft/wsl/issues/2468#issuecomment-374904520
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Online nctnico

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #144 on: September 07, 2019, 01:40:42 pm »
The only legitimate way to get a Windows 10 key is through buying it retail or OEM with a computer build at designated Microsoft resellers.
The resale of transferrable keys from decommissioned machines has been happening for multiple years, if MS didn't like it it would have been stopped long ago.
Microsoft doesn't like it but it is perfectly legal in many places.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline MyHeadHz

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #145 on: September 07, 2019, 03:16:16 pm »
When you opt to use Linux for your daily desktop you will be joining a group that represents less than 2% of desktop users worldwide.  The folks that promote Linux like it a lot, no doubt!  The thing is, after 25 years, Linux has not even made a dent in desktop usage.  The market has spoken!  Windows costs money, Linux is free and they can't even give it away.  You would think FREE would garner more than 2% of the market.  There are reasons why it doesn't!

Linux was stagnant for many years in the 2-3% range, up until the last 2-3 years.  Since then, Microsoft has been losing desktop OS market share steadily; mostly to Mac, but also to Linux.  Recent figures (as of early this year) show it at around 6% and gaining.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #146 on: September 07, 2019, 03:54:24 pm »


https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-developers-primary-operating-systems

It shouldn't surprise me to see something similar in an electronics engineering environment.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 03:59:07 pm by Karel »
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #147 on: September 07, 2019, 04:02:58 pm »
Win10 is already rather stripped down and barren

I wouldn't exactly call 25+GB for a clean install "stripped down". I actually find Windows 10 quite bloated.

True, I was thinking from a visual/eye candy standpoint. The Win10 UI has always looked to me like they made a wireframe/quick proof of concept and then just shipped that. It is the most visually bland OS on the market in at least the last 20 years.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #148 on: September 07, 2019, 04:08:17 pm »
Not unimportant:

 

Offline Jookia

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Re: Linux OS for a new user
« Reply #149 on: September 08, 2019, 04:35:04 am »
I know no home user who cares about that, as long as they have an activated copy they're happy.
I'm not talking about professional environments, neither is this thread.

Yes, most users don't care about EULAs or legality of the software they use, but it becomes a problem when providing support or recommendations to them professionally.
If someone's on Windows 7 and it's going EOL it's a headache to tell them they need to shell out ~$180 AUD for Windows 10.
If someone loses their OEM key for Windows it's another headache to tell them they need to buy a new copy of Windows 10.
If someone builds a computer it's a headache to tell them they have to buy another copy of Windows too.
Often the solution is 'buy another computer that comes with Windows'

Linux is a lot more liberal when it comes to licensing, especially if you want to run older versions.
 


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