Author Topic: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated  (Read 12000 times)

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Offline ogden

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2019, 05:17:04 pm »
I'm still not buying it, you talk as though you can process over 60 images per second. So how about you run 60 different images per second past your eye and tell me what some of them are......

You can't tell every image shown even at 24fps. Does it prove that 144Hz refresh of even 60Hz is pointless? - Hell no. As I already said - for few decades gaming industry and top FPS gamers proves that there is gain from > 60Hz refresh. It is not about processing different images per second. Your vision does not work like video camera.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2019, 05:34:04 pm »
True, another way of looking at it is what angular speed can we perceive. people will always want more but for eample 8K video is a complete waste of time..... in the same vein what is the smallest angle per second that can be appreciated.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2019, 05:41:34 pm »
With the capabilities of graphics now and the huge bluray capacity why is the film industry not rushing to 60Hz and has remained at 30 - ish Hz?

People associate high framerate with television and thus lower quality. So they'd rather have a juddery mess which looks awful on each pan and which makes Michael Bay movies even worse than they have to be (you could follow the action of shaky cam a lot better at higher framerates).

The minimum framerate necessary to get rid of judder is the same as the flicker limit, so around 70 Hz for most people. But only for stroboscopic displays, capture and hold displays need far higher framerates for smooth motion (240 Hz TV's are generally a bit of both, motion compensated upconversion to 120 Hz with a strobing backlight ... which in marketing speak is then translated to 240 Hz).
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 05:49:44 pm by Marco »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2019, 06:01:44 pm »
Well TV was always 25/30Hz, they just drew the pictures as half pictures at 50/60Hz to stay in syc with the grid, if they could do real 50/60Hz there would be no interlacing, it was a trick to get higher frame rates than the transmission bandwidth could take.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2019, 06:07:14 pm »
A 50/60 Hz interlaced video is not 25/30 Hz in any meaningful way. You can encode 25/30 Hz in it, but that's it.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2019, 06:10:34 pm »
True, another way of looking at it is what angular speed can we perceive. people will always want more but for eample 8K video is a complete waste of time..... in the same vein what is the smallest angle per second that can be appreciated.

Yes, 8K seems to be overkill in any case except professional imaging/editing or whatever which I do not care about anyway. FPS gamers trade resolution for refresh, for example Tfue plays Fortnite looking at 1920x1080 @ 240Hz.

With the capabilities of graphics now and the huge bluray capacity why is the film industry not rushing to 60Hz and has remained at 30 - ish Hz?

Mostly because 48fps film does not feel like film, it looks too good :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_high_frame_rates

Some considerations here:
https://www.tested.com/art/movies/452387-48-fps-and-beyond-how-high-frame-rates-affect-perception/

Well TV was always 25/30Hz, they just drew the pictures as half pictures at 50/60Hz to stay in syc with the grid, if they could do real 50/60Hz there would be no interlacing, it was a trick to get higher frame rates than the transmission bandwidth could take.

Sure. Yet today we can watch some 60p HD sports channels.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2019, 07:07:00 pm »
With the capabilities of graphics now and the huge bluray capacity why is the film industry not rushing to 60Hz and has remained at 30 - ish Hz?

What is the average movement is a scene? how many pixels does stuff actually mave frame to frame? on HD? as 4K does not support these speeds.
Not I'm not knocking on your argument about 60fps being fast enough, it is, but:

1. When watching movies at 24fps, you are a passive observer and the film has motion blur smoothing out the image which aids the mind in a smooth motion interpretation.

2. LCD screens have an additional 1 frame delay, making a 24 or 30fps setup look like a cartoon delayed animation when working on a PC, especially when manually routing/editing PCBs.

3. Have you experienced 60fps cinema?  Some IMAX releases have it and the motion is smooth as silk.

4. Get a gaming mouse for your PC, even with a 60fps monitor, the window dragging and board manual routing is just 10x more slick and smooth.  If you really want it, yes a lower res 120hz, 20x smoother display, with a gaming mouse is even better.  (If you do not own a true high refresh/poll rate low latency gaming mouse, any high fps responsive screen is TRULY a waste of your money.  I will just jerk around like a random stuttering 30hz-50hz screen.  Any potential windows internal mouse poll rate update upsampling which may be used on normal mouses just messes up the hand motion connection to the screen experience. (I still miss the connective feel from hand motion to display my overclocked Amiga had with it's parallel mouse port interface updating every single V-Sync without fail.))

My recommendation, 60hz is enough, but still invest in a gaming mouse and use it's gaming drivers.


Oh, and I've been paid good money to create a quality 1080i to 1080p upsampler which regenerates an interpreted true progressive 60fps, not 30fps.  In fact, I could not sell 30fps, since even bottom end TVs today use motion adaptive de-interlacing converting 1080i60 fields per second to 1080p60fps.  I wonder why everyone has gone through the trouble is 30fps or 24fps is fast enough.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 07:14:19 pm by BrianHG »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #57 on: July 22, 2019, 08:01:34 pm »
IF 60FPS is fast enough for film why do videa games want more? I would have thought that interactive stuff care more about latency than throuput?
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #58 on: July 22, 2019, 08:43:38 pm »
IF 60FPS is fast enough for film why do videa games want more?

Watching movies you do not track your targets with crosshairs - that's why. Also not every video game wants more than 60fps, not every recreational player will benefit from > 60FPS even playing demanding games. My suggestion here stands - go to gaming hardware store and try some shooter game on 60Hz, then 144Hz or 240Hz. Now you are talking  about food you never even tasted. How do you know?! - You can't.

Quote
I would have thought that interactive stuff care more about latency than throuput?

They both matter. Don't buy 144Hz monitor with 25ms response time - if such exist. 60Hz monitor with 1ms response time does not beat 144Hz monitors with 4ms - because total latency between screen and game physics is inter-frame time added to response time.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2019, 08:50:04 pm »
IF 60FPS is fast enough for film why do videa games want more? I would have thought that interactive stuff care more about latency than throuput?
This is a CAD forum.  A 4K desktop screen would be used for CAD here.  60Hz is great.

Yes, if you manually route like me, I do recommend a good PC with a gaming mouse as it tracks better, windows will get a number of polls per each VSync forcing a super responsive touch and the gaming mouse sensors usually track rapid hand motion better as well.

For the price difference, going from a 25$ mouse to a 65$ mouse is a far better investment than going from a 300$ 4k60hz screen to a 900$ 4k 144hz screen.

You do not need a high speed gaming mouse for MS Excell or web browsing.  For CAD, drawing & painting, the extra 40$ is better than the extra 600$.

Not to mention, if you spend the extra 600$ and don't spend the extra 40$ on a mouse that updates it's position fast enough, the 144Hz screen will just look like a 30Hz screen on the desktop.  Yes, that worse than a 60hz screen.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 08:52:26 pm by BrianHG »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2019, 09:01:00 pm »
IF 60FPS is fast enough for film why do videa games want more? I would have thought that interactive stuff care more about latency than throuput?
Remember, an active matrix LCD monitor also needs to receive a frame, the it updates the pixel content of that frame at the next VSync, sometimes even 50% later.  A faster frame-rate is not only smoother, bu this latency is cut almost 3 fold at 144hz.  Also, an LCD which can respond to such fast video also should change pixel state in far fewer milliseconds making things even better.

A CRT, certain near direct through capable 3 chip DLP video projectors, and NON-active matrix OLED screen with direct through capabilities are the only display technologies left which update pixels in real time as they come out or your video card creating the lowest latency possible.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2019, 09:06:19 pm »
This is a CAD forum.

No it's not. Gaming is mentioned two times in first post of this thread. After all there are many who do more than one thing on their PC - not only CAD but perhaps gaming as well.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2019, 11:20:11 pm »
I'm still not buying it, you talk as though you can process over 60 images per second. So how about you run 60 different images per second past your eye and tell me what some of them are......

You don't seem to have completely read or grasped what I said. Our neural system in general doesn't "process" information in the same way as a basic video processor would. It's very good at perceiving CONTRASTS (which means differences in general, be it spatially or temporally). But the structures that can detect contrasts very fast can not do so accurately. Conversely, perceiving information accurately is pretty slow. With our visual system, we CAN perceive very fast motion, but we would be totally unable to describe it precisely. Our brain doesn't even "process" all images, it processes their changes.

Explaining that in a simplified way, that would be a bit like equivalent-time sampling. Trading accuracy for speed, or speed for accuracy. Obviously something is lost along the way, but it can still provide some useful information in some contexts.

Our auditory system works much with the same principles. The hair cells in our cochlea aren't able by themselves to process sound with as fine frequency/temporal changes detection as we actually can perceive. Higher-level neural relays allow to detect contrasts to drastically enhance the overall performance. To illustrate some of that, even people with "absolute hearing" cannot possibly detect a 1Hz difference in a pure sine wave presented alone. Now if you present two such sounds with a 1Hz difference only (or even less) at the same time, or just one after the other, but very close temporally, many people can perceive the difference. We don't "process" things individually.

Since the faster the differences (contrasts) are, and the less details of them we get, it's probably completely possible to design a video processor based on some kind of psycho-visual algorithms, so that it could generate a high frame rate without actually having to generate complete frames for each frame, a bit like psycho-acoustic compression, but for our visual system. I don't know all the MPEG algorithms for video well, so that may be what they do (or at least some of them). But I don't know of any graphics card that would do this on the fly for gaming purposes. It would probably avoid the need to generate full frames while still being able to provide improved motion perception for the users. Just a thought. That may already have been patented a while ago... I think some TV sets that have 100Hz/120Hz refresh rates (or even double that) already have such processors to improve motion perception. They don't all seem to work very well though, but that's worth mentioning.

Also consider what I said after that part in my previous post:
Although again the difference would be noticeable by many people (we are not all perceiving things quite the same way) when they are focusing their attention on the video itself, if they are actively playing a game, I ventured that their attention is on action and that they will probably NOT perceive a difference (apart again from pure latency, which is something else), at least not consciously, as conscious perception is not multi-tasking very well for most of us. That may still improve the speed of our reflex actions, but that would remain to be proven scientifically in a study in which we would test various frame rates but make the latency identical, which would not be trivial.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2019, 11:38:21 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #63 on: July 23, 2019, 02:37:40 am »
That may still improve the speed of our reflex actions, but that would remain to be proven scientifically in a study in which we would test various frame rates but make the latency identical, which would not be trivial.
That's tricky, but, you are thinking our eyes are static stationary devices.  They are not, they can track and focus on moving objects.  I know very well I can read text or target trace connections on an oversized PCB in protel's ballistic mode easily on a 120hz setup.  On a 60hz, the text and PCB plotting is already smearing as it hops multiple pixels when moving said objects.  30Hz will be an interpreted guess as it will look like steppy Hollywood movies.

If I did not move my eyes and focus on the objects I was moving and editing, or didn't use a gaming mouse, 120hz would be useless.

You may look at this UFO test demo:  (Just follow the UFO with your eyes, see which one is clearer...)
https://www.testufo.com/framerates#count=4&background=stars&pps=480

Believe me that on my Mitsubishi 240hz monitor, the top UFO and stars are as clear and smooth as silk if you follow it with your eyes.  In fact, it's as clear as it it were stationary.   My 60hz screens are crap by comparison.

Now for your 60hz users out there, if you cannot see the difference between 60hz and 30hz, this is what it is like multiplied another 2x and 4x when moving, cutting and paste PCB objects with a high speed gaming mouse.  With normal mouses, no matter how fast your screen is you get somewhere between 30hx and 15hz crap.  You may think scrolling a window's vertical contents may look better, DONT BE FOLLED, the web browser/editor is SMOOTHING out the motion artificially.  It is not a true reflection of your mouse movements.  You can disable this in most web browsers or window's visual enhancement features in the control panel.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 03:18:47 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #64 on: July 23, 2019, 03:15:55 am »
Note that multi-monitor setups or remote viewing software may mess up the UFO test and IE10 is limited to only 60hz.  Your better off using chrome or firefox.  A narrower browsing window may help smooth things out on slower PCs.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #65 on: August 02, 2019, 06:11:57 am »
So today I made a 32" Hole and my 1080P 21" 60Hz looks like ..... insert possibly crude metaphor here  >:D

Two simple choices within my budget of $3-400'ish 4K 60 or QHD 144.

Must have features
Free Sync preferably down to 1Hz since paying the G Sync Tax isn't that important any more.
VA or IPS but leaning toward a monitor with 'reasonable' colour accuracy without breaking the bank.
VESA mount prefered to save bench space.

Currently leaning toward an LG 32" 144Hz for my mixed requirements but haven't ruled out 4K 60. Expected use case 40% CAD, 20% video editing, 40% General and 'some' Gaming. Yes frame rate does make a difference to fast FPS bit it is a small part of what I am likely to do so lets not re start a war much more likely I will be playing CIV5 or 6 ;)

Current leading suspect https://www.lg.com/au/it-monitors/lg-32GK650F-B circa $380USD + tax locally.

Alternates including 4K anyone or users of the LG?

« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:13:39 am by beanflying »
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Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #66 on: August 02, 2019, 07:01:46 am »
Well it really depends on what you want. the choice is yours, high resolution or high speed, you choose, no one else can choose for you.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #67 on: August 02, 2019, 07:07:11 am »
Well it really depends on what you want. the choice is yours, high resolution or high speed, you choose, no one else can choose for you.

As I have no sustained use of anything other than 1080P some anecdotal replies from those with 4K vs QHD 'real world' use is of benefit. Absolute frame rate isn't on top of my list but more the 144 QHD fits the budget so I would instead of doing down to a lower refresh rate unless anyone has a compellingly better more colour accurate alternate with a 60-80FPS.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #68 on: August 02, 2019, 07:20:13 am »
well 1440p is a good compromise. As I explained my priority is smooth texts so I went with 4K and have a resolution of 100dpi sitting 1m away so i got what i wanted and get te read my nice rounded fonts without jagged edges.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #69 on: August 02, 2019, 07:32:48 am »
Well it really depends on what you want. the choice is yours, high resolution or high speed, you choose, no one else can choose for you.

As I have no sustained use of anything other than 1080P some anecdotal replies from those with 4K vs QHD 'real world' use is of benefit. Absolute frame rate isn't on top of my list but more the 144 QHD fits the budget so I would instead of doing down to a lower refresh rate unless anyone has a compellingly better more colour accurate alternate with a 60-80FPS.

Well I've used a 24 Inch BenQ IPS display, the BenQ BL2423PT. That was a great monitor price wise with great connectivity. The other model that I bought to the company and momentary used was this new one:
https://www.amazon.com/BenQ-PD2700q-Technology-Accurate-Reproduction/dp/B01K1INYWG/ref=dp_ob_title_ce?th=1

And I will tell you, this one is a beast of a monitor in terms of colour reproduction and functions for the price. And compared with most of the other brands it brings the HDMI cable plus the Display Port one. Dell for example only packs the HDMI cable and the VGA/DVI on them, having to buy the Display Port one.

« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 07:37:05 am by Black Phoenix »
 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2019, 07:37:47 am »
i have an LG 27" monitor, 4K 60Hz (runs at 30Hz) matt IPS, it is lovely, such a shame that my 43" is not the same quality. It really is like looking at paper.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #71 on: August 02, 2019, 09:24:36 am »
You cannot compare movies with 24FPS to computers. It doesnt work that way. A movie is delayed, motion of the object is captured with the camera. So in 1 frame (41 ms), the object will move, and that movement will be recorded by the camera. More than 60 FPS does make sense on a computer.
Dont believe me? Move your mouse. What you will see is several discrete pointers on the screen. Your brain disassociates them as being several different object. That's why you can see several different ones. At around 120-180 Hz the brain will only see 1 pointer, which is what you want. The actual frequency you need depends on the movement speed.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #72 on: August 02, 2019, 09:26:58 am »
I don't really care to see smooth mouse movement.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2019, 09:34:39 am »
I don't really care to see smooth mouse movement.
Goes beyond that. Website, datasheet scrolling, faster edit of a PCB (I'm not even kidding).
And you know, playing games. It is more immersive, cause your brain doesn't disassociate the objects.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Looking to buy a new monitor, some opinions would be appreciated
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2019, 09:42:33 am »
24-30FPS properly exposed with 'appropriate' motion blur to 100+ FPS crisp responding display is not even a comparison to make they are very different animals.

Always worth a read and still controversial even now was Peter Jackson filming LOTR at 48FPS https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/peter-jackson-responds-hobbit-footage-317755
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