Microsoft ending Win7 support soon, should I get Ubuntu?

[bd139]

If desktop Linux ever gets popular, people will target it and then they'll realise what a piece of shit it is. It is by far the least secure of the three platforms.

Got anything to back this up with? A majority of the internet runs on Linux machines, a majority of firewalls and routers run Linux. What makes desktop Linux systems inherently less secure? Just sounds like FUD/propaganda to me.

Ok let's be 100% transparent and honest here. It's certainly not FUD/propaganda. It's a clear architectural evaluation. Just to show I'm not some windows fanboy shitting on Linux here, I will point out that I'm a RHCA and have been running Linux in production on the Internet in clusters of hundreds of nodes for large well known companies for about 20 years. I have written everything from kernel modules to system utilities to full blown applications hosted on top of it. Before that was Solaris. I was the dude who's coffee table was a sun4d (1000E) which I was fixing Linux SPARC port kernel bugs on. And with that comes a lot of experience as to where the flaws are.

On the server, it's certainly not terrible but the exposed surface of Linux and the stacks that run on it is usually 100% written in C which is a language with a thousand foot guns in it. Someone mentioned static analysis and comparison to commercial software. I have run static analysis extensively before (coverity) and dynamic analysis (valgrind etc) on things like haproxy and nginx and found things which were scary. These were reported and fixed but there's a lot of stuff out there that is still wide open. We need to get rid of that ecosystem as the overall attack surface is controlled by the lowest skilled member of the team and on open source products this quality metric is somewhat variable and impossible to control. Also there are priority, attention and professionalism issues with open source software as the developers only want to fix the interesting bugs. Plus a large quantity of the maintainers seem to be the comic book guy out of Simpsons. So I regularly write a patch to fix something quite horrible in something and submit it and it sits there for 3 years until it becomes a CVE or I get told I'm not a maintainer and basically fuck off. That's about it. Not good. Glorious open source is not the panacea everyone tells me it is, even as a major proponent of it for a long time. I'm on the fence. Vendors usually have financial ties motivating them. On the technical issues, alas that's probably one for the Rust thread so I won't go further into it here

Also anyone who's not run Linux in production, I suggest you set up a box on digitaloean or something, with an open ssh server (no open accounts) and http server and watch the sshd, firewall and web logs. There are a lot of compromised Linux machines set up by idiots or unpatched all knocking on your door 24/7. It's not unusual for a single IP to get just over 10,000 SSH knocking attempts a day and similar amounts of HTTP traffic.  Basically the Internet is genuinely a warzone of compromised crap and a lot of it is Linux.

Going back to the desktop, there are some serious problems with it. I've mentioned these elsewhere as well. There is virtually no process segregation within a user's session. Thus when someone compromises your firefox process (happens, a lot) if they can pop up an execve then they can write into your profile directory quite happily and set off a command/control process every time you log in. That's C again for you, usually helped along by shitty programming. SELinux (and AppArmor) are supposed to help with that by introducing MAC to the user but it is never configured in a way which is actually effective because that's incredibly difficult when your processes are used to puking stuff all over the disk randomly (dotfiles, cache, temp files, all sorts) in a completely non standardised way so they just don't bother and tell everyone it's done. With this situation, the same is true if you run Firefox, Evolution, Thunderbird, anything. And lets not forget those horrible wget and pipe to bash installers.

If you look at Microsoft, as much as I hate the bastards, they're making a lot of progress in this space. Far more than any of the other vendors out there thanks to their baptism of fire over the last few years.

Security is a journey, not a destination. Linux and open source has somewhat stalled by its complacency from being the least shit option. That's not going to be the case forever.

Now there's absolutely no reason to run windows on a server these days though. Just the automation friction is a game ender. But on the desktop it's still the best option IMHO.

[Karel]

Windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers, ...

Most industrial/professional EDA is available for Linux.

For example:

• Zuken CR-5000 & CR-7000
• Cadence Allegro
• Keysight ADS

The mediocre altium designer and Orcad are exceptions.

The same for MCU firmware and FPGA development, they are all available in Linux and for good reasons.

No way that all those industrial manufactures provide Linux versions if
"windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers"
were true...

[Mechatrommer]

I would harbor a guess most home users use their "admin" account in Windows which is a huge security no-no

not a guess, but every Windows PC that i know here run as admin (root). when you buy or service a PC from shop, by default its admin access. so all this while is an apple to orange security comparison between Linux users (non-root) and Windows users (root). if we ask all Linux users run as root for a while, then we can have more fair comparison imho. this root/non-root has been Linux users' stronghold brickwall to protect their system made for them by Linus Torvalds, while Windows/Ms let the users to gain admin for freedom and dont talk taboo about it (maybe they think admin/root in Windows is safe enough compared to Linux root?) i myself hate to run as non-admin, i will not have full control of the system's files. but Win10 is quite different, i cannot simply copy files into system/program folders, it either asks for user confirmation, or just copy the file to "somewhere" maybe in local cloud or sandbox or something i dont know, but it looks like has been copied, but i know it hasnt. so Win10 has higher level security, but thats not the point why i stick with older Win. otoh android is safer due to its non-root access by default and no mortals even aware of it, they just enjoy wasting their time. but forget about handcrafting your OS like a Windows can.

Windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers, ...

Most industrial/professional EDA is available for Linux.

For example:

• Zuken CR-5000 & CR-7000
• Cadence Allegro
• Keysight ADS

The mediocre altium designer and Orcad are exceptions.

The same for MCU firmware and FPGA development, they are all available in Linux and for good reasons.

No way that all those industrial manufactures provide Linux versions if
"windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers"
were true...

you can list all whats available in Linux all you like, but in reality engineers/doctors/artists/pros still use Windows since most production tools/hardwares are in Windows. i can name a few that i know and they are mentioned already. AutoCAD/Inventors, Solidworks, plethora of CAMs, Adobe Photoshop, countless list of pro's printers and specialized tools (such as my monitor/printer calibrator and Canon cameras drivers) etc etc. what i dont know is in another field of engineering such as civil, architecture, medical doctors etc, but still i never heard a single one of them ever worship Linux (or Apple MAC) as engineering/pro tools (at least around here).

[james_s]

Windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers, architects, doctors and other professionals  as they are 100% locked in and have zero choice. Their careers demand Windows and they don't care what they use as long as it "does the job". They don't have the time to worry about it.

Everywhere else it's Linux for sure, kids love it and know it, it's free, runs on any old junk and is serious computing power.

I only use Unix myself.

Virtually the entire engineering department at a former employer of mine was on Linux, and outside of Microsoft itself it's very common in the tech world. When I was job hunting the postings I saw wanting Linux proficiency were at least 10:1 vs those wanting Windows/Powershell proficiency. There are some places like my friend's machine shop that are locked into Windows due to the specific CAD software they use but if that weren't the case they would switch. They are constantly having hassles with the forced updates, like most small to medium size businesses they are too small to have the enterprise version or their own IT person.

[Karel]

you can list all whats available in Linux all you like, but in reality engineers/doctors/artists/pros still use Windows since most production tools/hardwares are in Windows. i can name a few that i know and they are mentioned already. AutoCAD/Inventors, Solidworks, plethora of CAMs, Adobe Photoshop, countless list of pro's printers and specialized tools (such as my monitor/printer calibrator and Canon cameras drivers) etc etc. what i dont know is in another field of engineering such as civil, architecture, medical doctors etc, but still i never heard a single one of them ever worship Linux (or Apple MAC) as engineering/pro tools (at least around here).

I don't care about other professions.
What I care about is professional electronics engineering and firmware development because that is what I do.
This can be done perfectly on Linux, most of the time more efficiently than on windows.

[james_s]

The artists and other pro media people are mostly on Mac from what I've seen, although Apple is losing some ground in that area by focusing on fashion accessories rather than updating their high end machines to make them more capable.

[Mr. Scram]

The artists and other pro media people are mostly on Mac from what I've seen, although Apple is losing some ground in that area by focusing on fashion accessories rather than updating their high end machines to make them more capable.

That group hasn't been mostly on Mac in ages.

[AngusBeef]

you can list all whats available in Linux all you like, but in reality engineers/doctors/artists/pros still use Windows since most production tools/hardwares are in Windows. i can name a few that i know and they are mentioned already. AutoCAD/Inventors, Solidworks, plethora of CAMs, Adobe Photoshop, countless list of pro's printers and specialized tools (such as my monitor/printer calibrator and Canon cameras drivers) etc etc. what i dont know is in another field of engineering such as civil, architecture, medical doctors etc, but still i never heard a single one of them ever worship Linux (or Apple MAC) as engineering/pro tools (at least around here).

I don't care about other professions.
What I care about is professional electronics engineering and firmware development because that is what I do.
This can be done perfectly on Linux, most of the time more efficiently than on windows.

The Windows vs (desktop) Linux v Mac is a pointless argument. They're all highly developed and refined OSes that run on the same hardware so its mostly just a matter of Pros and Cons for each one.

It's no argument that most people use Windows and also most don't understand or care about basic security (and some think windows updates that close exploits are actually spyware sent by the NSA/Satan/etc).

It's also no argument Linux is everywhere and has a lot of capability, but if Windows is for power users as opposed to Mac streamlines settings, Linux is for the superuser's (see what I did there?) who want more granular control or their kernel and GUI. Whatever works for you, works for you.

I used Linux for years side by side with Windows. If you want the best of both run windows with a Linux VM or Linux with a Windows VM. Now you can have your cake AND eat it

[Mr. Scram]

The Windows vs (desktop) Linux v Mac is a pointless argument. They're all highly developed and refined OSes that run on the same hardware so its mostly just a matter of Pros and Cons for each one.

It's no argument that most people use Windows and also most don't understand or care about basic security (and some think windows updates that close exploits are actually spyware sent by the NSA/Satan/etc).

It's also no argument Linux is everywhere and has a lot of capability, but if Windows is for power users as opposed to Mac streamlines settings, Linux is for the superuser's (see what I did there?) who want more granular control or their kernel and GUI. Whatever works for you, works for you.

I used Linux for years side by side with Windows. If you want the best of both run windows with a Linux VM or Linux with a Windows VM. Now you can have your cake AND eat it

This kind of nuance can't be tolerated here. Reported.

[bd139]

LOL 

[ddavidebor]

The artists and other pro media people are mostly on Mac from what I've seen, although Apple is losing some ground in that area by focusing on fashion accessories rather than updating their high end machines to make them more capable.

That group hasn't been mostly on Mac in ages.

Yeah they still are. Big software like Photoshop, Inventor, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve runs well on windows also but the whole ecosystem of apps is mac-centered.

macos is much more refined for this applications. Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

[AngusBeef]

The artists and other pro media people are mostly on Mac from what I've seen, although Apple is losing some ground in that area by focusing on fashion accessories rather than updating their high end machines to make them more capable.

That group hasn't been mostly on Mac in ages.

Yeah they still are. Big software like Photoshop, Inventor, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve runs well on windows also but the whole ecosystem of apps is mac-centered.

macos is much more refined for this applications. Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

MACOS is not more refined. Its built with a different interface design than windows that is generally supposed to reduce some options and hiding some capability for users in favor of providing streamlined and simpler navigation.

And please stop with the absolutes - it's not frustrating to preview a file in Windows, it's frustrating to preview a file in windows FOR YOU. Another example, since I have used Linux and Windows exclusively, everything in MacOS is super annoying TO ME and I struggle to complete basic operations. But it's not that Macs are bad - I just am not familiar with them. So go learn you some Windows, I'll learn me some Mac and we can eat some tea and crumpets and the world will be a better place

[hamster_nz]

MACOS is not more refined. Its built with a different interface design than windows that is generally supposed to reduce some options and hiding some capability for users in favor of providing streamlined and simpler navigation.

Ah... I remember the single-button mouse fondly...

[bd139]

It actually has two   What is this black magic they speak of?!?!?!

I am a former Mac user by the way. I got put off because (a) OSX is a total dick (b) I broke the screen on my MacBook Pro when I feel asleep and it fell 6 inches to the floor and it cost me as much as a second hand thinkpad to fix (c) I bought a new MacBook Air and the keyboard was the worst thing I've ever used in my entire life apart from possible a ZX Spectrum or one of those metal keyboard they put in service stations on the internet terminals.

Apart from those deal killers it's fine.

[james_s]

I never liked Macs much but I was so frustrated with the direction Windows has gone that when given the option I chose a Macbook at my current job and I gotta say after using it for a year I've been very pleased with the OS, it is hands down more polished and refined than Windows, there's not even really any comparison. The single button mouse is long gone, they have touchpads now that support multi-touch, I've never liked touchpads either but unlike every other one I've tried, the Macbook touchpad works great. My only complaint about it is that it's stupidly huge.

Unfortunately the extremely limited lineup of supported hardware and vendor lock-in knocks it out of the running for anything I'm spending my own money on. Not gonna get locked into that ecosystem.

[andersm]

Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

Pressing space in Finder is the feature I miss most by far when working under other OSes.

[AngusBeef]

I never liked Macs much but I was so frustrated with the direction Windows has gone that when given the option I chose a Macbook at my current job and I gotta say after using it for a year I've been very pleased with the OS, it is hands down more polished and refined than Windows, there's not even really any comparison. The single button mouse is long gone, they have touchpads now that support multi-touch, I've never liked touchpads either but unlike every other one I've tried, the Macbook touchpad works great. My only complaint about it is that it's stupidly huge.

Unfortunately the extremely limited lineup of supported hardware and vendor lock-in knocks it out of the running for anything I'm spending my own money on. Not gonna get locked into that ecosystem.

If multitouch is something you like there are dozens of multitouch keypads that are windows compatible - I have one on my windows/linux laptop. If yours didn't come with one, it's not terribly complicated to swap it out

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

[techman-001]

Windows will have to be plucked from the cold dead fingers of electronics engineers, architects, doctors and other professionals  as they are 100% locked in and have zero choice. Their careers demand Windows and they don't care what they use as long as it "does the job". They don't have the time to worry about it.

Everywhere else it's Linux for sure, kids love it and know it, it's free, runs on any old junk and is serious computing power.

I only use Unix myself.

Virtually the entire engineering department at a former employer of mine was on Linux, and outside of Microsoft itself it's very common in the tech world. When I was job hunting the postings I saw wanting Linux proficiency were at least 10:1 vs those wanting Windows/Powershell proficiency. There are some places like my friend's machine shop that are locked into Windows due to the specific CAD software they use but if that weren't the case they would switch. They are constantly having hassles with the forced updates, like most small to medium size businesses they are too small to have the enterprise version or their own IT person.

That's great to hear, I've been personally advocating Linux since 1997 when I dumped Win95 and went Linux only full time.

I ran a tech business for 15 years on Linux, it did my accounting and all my tech needs and gave me a MASSIVE advantage over my Windows using competitors.

At times I'd feel like I was 'cheating' as Linux made life so easy. Long term Linux workstation users here will know *exactly* what I mean.

I'd go on site with my Thinkpad (Linux) which had network aliases for every site so I could just connect the lan cable and everything worked. The poor old Windows guys would be altering IP's, rebooting etc and it would take them ages and much frustration. Sure Windows does network aliases too, I just never met a Windows user who actually used them, or knew how to set them up.

Windows users, ones who have to do *real* work with Windows would *weep* if they knew how EASY Linux has made my working life since 1997 and that they *could* have had the same if not locked into Windows.

[bd139]

I'll give you that on networking. I actually tether my windows 10 box to my phone instead of arguing with corporate wifi 

[techman-001]

I'll give you that on networking. I actually tether my windows 10 box to my phone instead of arguing with corporate wifi 

I bet IT would have conniptions if they knew. How can they manage Windows updates, virus updates etc on a corporate scale, or have you also also done some evil routing on that Windows box ?

Beware the RH system architect!

[Mr. Scram]

Yeah they still are. Big software like Photoshop, Inventor, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve runs well on windows also but the whole ecosystem of apps is mac-centered.

macos is much more refined for this applications. Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

They're really not. The creative industries have moved on and the days of it being predominantly Apple are long gone. Apple used to do some interesting things like colour space but that advantage has evaporated ages ago.

[ddavidebor]

Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

Pressing space in Finder is the feature I miss most by far when working under other OSes.

There are a couple of apps that emulate it on windows

[ddavidebor]

The artists and other pro media people are mostly on Mac from what I've seen, although Apple is losing some ground in that area by focusing on fashion accessories rather than updating their high end machines to make them more capable.

That group hasn't been mostly on Mac in ages.

Yeah they still are. Big software like Photoshop, Inventor, Adobe Premiere, Davinci Resolve runs well on windows also but the whole ecosystem of apps is mac-centered.

macos is much more refined for this applications. Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

MACOS is not more refined. Its built with a different interface design than windows that is generally supposed to reduce some options and hiding some capability for users in favor of providing streamlined and simpler navigation.

And please stop with the absolutes - it's not frustrating to preview a file in Windows, it's frustrating to preview a file in windows FOR YOU. Another example, since I have used Linux and Windows exclusively, everything in MacOS is super annoying TO ME and I struggle to complete basic operations. But it's not that Macs are bad - I just am not familiar with them. So go learn you some Windows, I'll learn me some Mac and we can eat some tea and crumpets and the world will be a better place

I have grown up with all three os, can use all of them proficiently, can do sysadmin work on all of them, use advanced software in all of them.

[Mechatrommer]

Even something simple as previewing files can be rather frustating on windows.

Pressing space in Finder is the feature I miss most by far when working under other OSes.

alt-v,h in WInXP search. Win10 Search will automatic show thumbnail if its picture file, no need a single press, if automation is that important. i use Space to move to next picture in ACDSee, backspace to move back, how intuitive but Windows Picture View sucks, even in Win10. but then there's better picture viewer today... android phone, but that will still alot lacking when you have hundreds or even thousands of pics in a session, let alone editing and printing, one will need dedicated tools, not a single OS (without 3rd party dedicated tools installed) will satisfy a mechatrommer. someone may say i'm locked, but if other millions of SWs are locked in, i'm willing to lock myself in.

[james_s]

I never liked Macs much but I was so frustrated with the direction Windows has gone that when given the option I chose a Macbook at my current job and I gotta say after using it for a year I've been very pleased with the OS, it is hands down more polished and refined than Windows, there's not even really any comparison. The single button mouse is long gone, they have touchpads now that support multi-touch, I've never liked touchpads either but unlike every other one I've tried, the Macbook touchpad works great. My only complaint about it is that it's stupidly huge.

Unfortunately the extremely limited lineup of supported hardware and vendor lock-in knocks it out of the running for anything I'm spending my own money on. Not gonna get locked into that ecosystem.

If multitouch is something you like there are dozens of multitouch keypads that are windows compatible - I have one on my windows/linux laptop. If yours didn't come with one, it's not terribly complicated to swap it out

Sent from my SM-T820 using Tapatalk

I prefer physical buttons under the trackpad but since nobody does that anymore I'll live with multitouch. I've tried every laptop I've come across since the clickpad on my otherwise great Lenovo is so terrible and I've come to the conclusion that they all suck. The Apple trackpad is so much better than anything else on the market and I'm not really sure why. I'm not really sure how I could swap out the trackpad without major surgery, I don't do external junk hanging off my laptop.

Anyway the original point I was going for is that the silly one-button Apple mouse is ancient history, the OS natively supports multiple mouse buttons and a scroll wheel.