Author Topic: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!  (Read 770 times)

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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2020, 06:23:09 pm »
With SSDs, one second they are fine and the next they are worthless and unreadable refined sand.

Finally, SSDs will die. There are no two ways around it: if you write to it is is a write closer to death and the question is only what exact number of writes will do for it. With HDs, they fail in any number of strange ways, but there is nothing that is actually killing it off whenever you access it. Against that, SSDs can read forever and survive power-on drops that a spinner would suffer a coronary just thinking about. They make perfect sense for backup, unfortunately :)

This is exactly what I've heard and why I was reluctant to go with SSD.  Explaining Computers on youtube went through this on his  channel a while back.

I have 1 x 1TB stand alone HD, and 1 x 1TB portable HD that I now store all my files to, basically leaving the PC's HD for it's own use. So that in the event that my PC's HD or system goes TU I can just plug the drives into a new PC and continue as normal, mostly!
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Online tautech

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 06:39:37 pm »
What is it with SSD's that scare so many ?
Pair it with a spinning drive and let the HD do all the daily data work for your programs and OS bits but place the OS on the SSD for the performance gains they offer.
Modern OS's know how to properly manage SSD's and after ~10 years of using them we have never had one fail.

For a reasonably fast and modern system ditch any thoughts of using anything dual core and an I3 ~3G or more will give massive improvements in boot times.
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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 06:56:03 pm »
The logic of the argument is obvious, electro mechanical V solid state, but if an SSD does fail, and the data isn't backed up, it's SC time! Whereas, data recovery on a HD is at least possible.
I guess it's just a case of backup discipline.
 
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Offline HobGoblyn

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 07:22:50 pm »
My PC currently has 5  SSDs in it.

A 240GB Corsair Neutron GTX SSD for the C drive
A 480GB Sandisk Plus SSD
3 500GB Samsung Evo SSDs

Never had a problem with them.

I also have a 2TB HDD in it (that's currently empty) and a 4TB hdd  external that I use to back up any important stuff from the SSD's

Over the years, I have had a few HDD's go bad on me, so far I haven't had an SSD go bad.  First SSD I bought in 2011,  still works fine (in one of my (now adult) kids laptops I think), only removed it from my PC 13 months ago as I wanted larger capacity SSD's in it.

I have always bought well reviewed SSD's from well known brands rather than the cheaper unknown brand stuff. Whether there's any difference I cant tell you.

My wife has an oldish Sony laptop that ran like a snail.  I changed the HDD to SSD and it was like a new PC, whizzing along.

I've always built my own, but my favourite parts supplier is Scan computers, not sure how well their pre built stuff compares to the competition price wise though, but the staff I've spoken to have always been very knowledgeable and when I've had problems (use PC for music, and had a latency problem with my DAW and other music software), they bent over backwards to help me find and fix the problem.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:24:29 pm by HobGoblyn »
 

Offline Tom45

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 09:19:37 pm »
The logic of the argument is obvious, electro mechanical V solid state, but if an SSD does fail, and the data isn't backed up, it's SC time! Whereas, data recovery on a HD is at least possible.
I guess it's just a case of backup discipline.

I don't understand that "logic".

The probability that a SSD will fail is 100%, the same as a HD. The amount of grief that a failure causes is proportional to the time since your last backup.

I started with computers over 50 years ago. MTBF for disk drives back then was on the order of a few days. I've been diligent about backups ever since. These days my automated backups are only run every night. The nightly backups are rarely needed due to disk failures but are most often used because of my mistakes in deleting or overwriting something that I later realize I needed.
 

Offline wilfred

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2020, 11:36:19 pm »
I'm going to be perverse and say don't get a SSD. Yes, they are brilliant, but what you want at the start is something 'good enough'. A spinning HD is perfectly OK and because this is a new thing for you, you won't notice any lack of disk speed. Then, a year down the line, get a SSD and you've cheaply made your PC (which you are not used to) a speed demon. The added bonus is that the original HD can now extend you collection of backup media. Or, more likely, start the collection.

OTOH, if you go straight to SSD there's no simple way of improving it so you'll be on a continuous down-slope of "God, this is /so/ slow". And you will need another drive for backup anyway because an SSD failing won't give you any warning. With most HDs, if you don't get a warning that they are failing (slows down, disk errors, nasty noises) there's a good chance you can retrieve some data with a bit of effort. With SSDs, one second they are fine and the next they are worthless and unreadable refined sand.

Finally, SSDs will die. There are no two ways around it: if you write to it is is a write closer to death and the question is only what exact number of writes will do for it. With HDs, they fail in any number of strange ways, but there is nothing that is actually killing it off whenever you access it. Against that, SSDs can read forever and survive power-on drops that a spinner would suffer a coronary just thinking about. They make perfect sense for backup, unfortunately :)

Get the SSD in ASAP and take backups. If you are relying on nasty noises as an early warning you're living too close to the edge.
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2020, 11:42:47 pm »
I think people get hung up on SSD failure rates without actually looking at reality. Everything will fail at some point, whether it be your SSD, electro-mechanical hard drive, power supply etc... Nothing lasts forever.

With electro-mechanical hard disks drives, there are many more things that go wrong. Temperature differentials can prematurely damage platters, heads which don't park properly (last week I had a drive where part of head #3 was bent upwards), stuck motors, etc...

Yes, SSDs have their own failure mode, being flash only has a limited number of program/erase cycles. However this is a known and well understood limitation so most manufacturers compensate for that by incorporating spare flash into their drives, wear leveling and so on.

Let us look at the Samsung MZ-76E500BW 500 GB SSD. It's a run-of-the-mill and reasonably cheap consumer SSD. Samsung guarantees this drive up to 300 TB written. If you wrote 10 Gigabytes per day, every day to that drive, it would take you over 84 years to reach that 300 TB warranty limit. I'm sure by then you will have upgraded ;-)

Once you have the OS installed, few users actually do a lot of writing to SSDs. You generally boot the machine up and just use it. Sure there are lots of small incremental writes, but they don't add up to much at all.

If you're doing a lot of intensive writes to your disk, then no, I wouldn't be buying an SSD for that purpose. But in just about every regular consumer environment (and even many commercial and government environments), this isn't going to be a problem. In fact, I would put SSDs into the category of being more resilient than traditional hard disk drives, so much so, I will be upgrading my NAS with SSDs once the prices for higher capacity drives come down a bit more.

Secondly, computers don't just "slow down" with age or use. Well, they do, but it has nothing to do with the hardware and more to do with Windows being so bloated that a regular format/reinstall is a part of life.
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 11:48:09 pm »
Secondly, computers don't just "slow down" with age or use. Well, they do, but it has nothing to do with the hardware and more to do with Windows being so bloated that a regular format/reinstall is a part of life.

And the ever increasing complexity of the software - a website as simple as this would take an extraordinary amount of time to render on my old K6-2, but it doesn't really do very much for it!
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2020, 02:07:36 am »
For modest use cases I really like buying used/ex-lease business grade workstations, they can be incredible value if you're a savvy shopper.

Yep, I've bought ex-leased business, they good value for what you get compared to new or building your own.
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2020, 08:37:14 am »
Quote
If you are relying on nasty noises as an early warning

That isn't what I was saying or meant. Please don't screw my words around like that.
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2020, 08:47:59 am »
Edit: Forget it. I can see this one disappearing down that 'must score a point' rabbit hole.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 08:52:13 am by dunkemhigh »
 

Offline LeonR

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2020, 10:45:07 am »
For a mixed office/home setup I'd go for something with:

* A Ryzen CPU ("G" suffix means integrated graphics that are more than enough for everyday usage and light gaming)
* Dual channel RAM (2x8GB for longevity)
* An SSD (at least 250GB)

I think you'll find reasonable models from any manufacturer with those.
 

Offline unknownparticle

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2020, 02:03:53 pm »
Well, what I've read here about SSD's combined with a few hours of light research on youtube etc, I'm convinced by the SSD option 8)
The self build route was very tempting for a while but time is a significant factor for me, the actual physical build may be quickly done but it's trawling around for the parts and then there is the windows licence issue.  So I'll check out the options suggested above for ex-lease business PC's and other suggestions.  It'll be sad to see the HP retired, but at 12 years it is getting on a bit, even though it's been 100% trouble free, excluding my self inflicted issue!

Thanks so far guys.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2020, 02:33:00 pm »
Amazon if I dare to say? Stick with business computers with SSD, usually they run between $500 to $1000 for non-high performance/gaming models.

Stay away from cheap home models unless you want to build one and knows the detail. Most cheap home PCs are built down to a price.

There is a reason why ThinkPad/XPS/Spectre carry a premium price tag, apart from brand tax.
 

Online rdl

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2020, 04:05:47 pm »
I don't know what you're using now, but for just a basic computer look at the NUC form factor devices. I know NUC was already mentioned, but most of those are expensive. I think Intel has one or two low cost models though. I have a couple of the cheapest Gigabyte Brix in use and they've been working fine. They're easy to build and use very little power. If you can get by with just one internal drive, one of those may be all you need.
 

Offline jc101

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Re: New desktop PC required, what and where??!!
« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2020, 09:22:30 pm »
Whilst my office PC is a self build (it's a bit of a beast), I often use a local company to get PCs built for others who want to upgrade etc.  Not the cheapest, but they are a few mins down the road and if anything goes wrong I can just drop the box off with them to sort out.  No additional junk on their builds either, just exactly what you ask for.

They have been going decades, and do know their stuff.  Their website is pretty basic, but most people just drop into the showroom and speak to someone. If you're close to Cambridge I'd can let you have their details.

I'd see if you have any local established places nearby.
 


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