Author Topic: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..  (Read 9197 times)

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Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« on: November 21, 2021, 01:41:02 pm »
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Software-Defined-Silicon-Intel

I was never really much fond to Intel methods of selling their stuff..

Working as a repair man along some decades allowed me to
build a pretty wide vision of hardware sellers and re-sellers..

The list is long.. but none of them ever compared to Intel methods.

WINTEL along the late 80 and all 90s.. caused me serious problems..
A lot of  prejudice and dozens of bad invested money...

But this time WTF ... this time..

Please just go to hell!
I am not willing to pay a crippled hardware ...
It may even be disabled without my consent.

Just FUCK OFF.
There are others..

Paul :-\
 

Offline madires

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2021, 02:53:23 pm »
The next step will be subscription based CPUs? :popcorn:
 

Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2021, 03:03:46 pm »
The next step will be subscription based CPUs? :popcorn:

It seems already this way...

Bundled into their microcode or firmware ...
Supervised by UEFI and trusted by TPM shit...

WTF .. if you do not pay the rent they pull the plug..
or worst..  any bug or just mal function may render you stuff unusable..

WTF .. greed replaced responsible brains.

Just FUCK OFF these assholes..

Paul

PS not to mention EXTRA costs of power running daemons to supervise that shit...
and all the hassle to live with this...  fuck off
 

Offline m k

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2021, 04:04:16 pm »
Since commuting with second hand EVs is a bit unknown personal long time renting is lifting its head.

Hand held computers have been up for quite some time and bigger ones down.

Maybe they are combining things and are visioning that old way has no serious money any longer.
Maybe they are right, for example I can't remember a broken motherboard without special external extras.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Triplett-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2021, 05:21:56 pm »
Here's a dirty little secret then: Your CPUs are already full of disabled features. Ones for higher end models, cores disabled to sell in a lower price bracket, and so forth. Intel are trying to make more money and provide greater flexibility by allowing you to unlock these later, but to you this is evil and stupid and.. well, doesn't impact you in the slightest so why are you whinging?
 
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Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2021, 05:33:52 pm »
I don't .

I am aware that the Intel microcode can even contain a sparse CPU/MCU
with builtin TCP/IP stacks and so forth.

They were never reliable nor trusty.

The thing now is that their money make stratagem changed...

From undisclosed builtin FAB to aggressive and  hostile
  "you need to pay this to work"

And of course..  running on line supervisors and now open schemas
that will not only monitor your CPU inner  but also  disable it in case
some "feature" not paid.

So far I could live with the model of FAB bundled features..
But I will not purchase that kind of hostile invasive stupid crap.

There are alternatives.

As usual your comments make my days..  :popcorn:

i was missing you
Paul

 
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2021, 06:10:16 pm »
You're jumping to conclusions without even having read the article, let alone reviewed the proposed software. Not to mention making major technical errors when stating your 'awareness'.

As usual, nothing but angry noise from you.
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2021, 07:08:15 pm »
Yep, PKTKS, do you have to spread FUD in every single thread?

It is great to have an option to enable certain features for a fee after the purchase. I'd like to buy the most basic CPU and then enable features as needed instead of buying the most expensive CPU right away just in case. If they see it as economically viable, then what's the issue? Does it burn you knowing that there is hardware right there that you can't use? Why? And if so, as it has been said, most modern microcontrollers include a ton of hardware that is disabled and not accessible on lower end models, but they can be reprogrammed at the factory to be higher end models.

But it looks like they are only doing it for server CPUs anyway.
Alex
 

Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2021, 09:15:52 am »
Nah
No fud no rant..

These are published bits. 

Ok fan boys
 I got yours ideas..

Paul
 

Online wraper

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2021, 09:22:52 am »
I agree that's its shifting the features from many SKUs with hard defined features to something like oscilloscope license upgrades. However it also opens the doors for subscription crap to produce a stable extortion revenue flow.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 02:28:33 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2021, 10:21:55 am »
Yep, PKTKS, do you have to spread FUD in every single thread?

It is great to have an option to enable certain features for a fee after the purchase. I'd like to buy the most basic CPU and then enable features as needed instead of buying the most expensive CPU right away just in case. If they see it as economically viable, then what's the issue? Does it burn you knowing that there is hardware right there that you can't use? Why? And if so, as it has been said, most modern microcontrollers include a ton of hardware that is disabled and not accessible on lower end models, but they can be reprogrammed at the factory to be higher end models.

But it looks like they are only doing it for server CPUs anyway.

How about this. The CPU slows down over time unless you feed it periodic unlock codes.

 :scared:

(Don't think they haven't thought about it.)  :)
iratus parum formica
 
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Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2021, 12:26:07 pm »
Yep, PKTKS, do you have to spread FUD in every single thread?

It is great to have an option to enable certain features for a fee after the purchase. I'd like to buy the most basic CPU and then enable features as needed instead of buying the most expensive CPU right away just in case. If they see it as economically viable, then what's the issue? Does it burn you knowing that there is hardware right there that you can't use? Why? And if so, as it has been said, most modern microcontrollers include a ton of hardware that is disabled and not accessible on lower end models, but they can be reprogrammed at the factory to be higher end models.

But it looks like they are only doing it for server CPUs anyway.

How about this. The CPU slows down over time unless you feed it periodic unlock codes.

 :scared:

(Don't think they haven't thought about it.)  :)

I have a  better...

You paid a 32 CORE CPU...
They locked 28 cores unless you pay monthly fees...

But. you still consumes power over 32 CPUs and they require you to run an invasive daemon to monitor you CPU usage.. :o

If I buy a car or motorcycle I expect they have wheels and functional parts..
fuck off this greed.

Paul  :popcorn:

 
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2021, 01:05:00 pm »
You paid a 32 CORE CPU...
They locked 28 cores unless you pay monthly fees...

But. you still consumes power over 32 CPUs and they require you to run an invasive daemon to monitor you CPU usage.. :o
Sure sounds like the manufacturer is just "reserving" those 28 cores for their own crypto mining...
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 
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Offline mfro

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2021, 01:53:03 pm »
Nothing new.

In the very beginning of my career, I was working for Control Data when they introduced their Cyber 2000 model.
This was the time when these machines were still sold including their "dedicated service engineer".

Anyways, the Cyber 2000 was available in two different configurations, the more expensive one with dual the processing power than the cheaper one which was field upgradeable.

On upgrade, the service engineer spent a whole day at customer premises at (and in) the machine needlessly opening and closing covers, pulling and plugging boards until he eventually set the one single jumper that activated the second CPU that was already there from the beginning...
Beethoven wrote his first symphony in C.
 

Offline PKTKSTopic starter

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2021, 02:13:04 pm »
Nothing new.
(..)

yehh sure it is not new....  but all things equal...
I've seen people dropping that more than going happy with the flow..

PHORONIX comments are hilarious..  they range from
- yeah FUCK YOU INTEL  to
- my gosh i can't wait to pay these licenses...

ALAS ... CISCO  is out of my option list for a long time..

No chance in hell I will pay a hardware capable ROUTER ...
fully operational but BRICKED with license "upgrades"

Fuck off CISCO.. 
even MikroTik  which uses license hardware is not that shitty.

MIMOSA, UBIQUITI, Cambrium they all have better models
There are alternatives. And all things going that potty hole..

Fuck off  CISCO and Fuck off WINTEL....

Paul

 

Offline nctnico

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2021, 02:44:20 pm »
Nothing new.

In the very beginning of my career, I was working for Control Data when they introduced their Cyber 2000 model.
This was the time when these machines were still sold including their "dedicated service engineer".

Anyways, the Cyber 2000 was available in two different configurations, the more expensive one with dual the processing power than the cheaper one which was field upgradeable.

On upgrade, the service engineer spent a whole day at customer premises at (and in) the machine needlessly opening and closing covers, pulling and plugging boards until he eventually set the one single jumper that activated the second CPU that was already there from the beginning...
And they where not the only ones. Early in my career I spend some time in a company selling mainframes. A customer wanted more performance so they ordered the CPU upgrade. The CPU had a single jumper to set the performance. After the engineer 'installed' the upgraded CPU the customer complained they didn't notice any performance improvement. Turned out that at some point the CPU already got set to the high performance mode :-DD :-DD
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2021, 04:05:01 pm »
It is great to have an option to enable certain features for a fee after the purchase. I'd like to buy the most basic CPU and then enable features as needed instead of buying the most expensive CPU right away just in case. If they see it as economically viable, then what's the issue?
This is a genuinely good question.

I personally do not object to this practice in principle.  What I do object to, is when that is done in order for one market segment to subsidize sales in another market segment: that play only works when there is not enough competition in the market, or when the sellers collude against customers.  In my experience, that play usually also involves skirting the law and copyrights...  I do not believe Intel fits in that category at all, and they must base their plan on something different.

For complex equipment, the design and manufacturing costs can easily be such that splitting the product (with run-time configuration the only difference) makes business sense for both the vendor and the customer.  Simply put, the larger volume allows price such savings that selling any of the sub-products alone would not be (as) profitable.
We see this often in high-end test gear and scientific equipment.  Intel already does this type of splitting, by testing and binning its silicon, and selling them as different models.  Now that AMD is once again manufacturing processors that are competitive with Intel ones in both price and performance, I don't see how Intel is going to benefit from this.

(Interestingly, if we look at Nov 2021 Top 500 supercomputers, the top five use processors from Fujitsu, two IBM (Power9), one SunWay, and one AMD Epyc.  There are two Intel Xeon and four AMD Epyc based ones in the top 10.  At these scales, the contracts with the vendor are obviously special, and we shouldn't draw any hasty conclusions.  Indeed, the Nov 2021 highlights tells us that 81.6% of Top500 still runs on Intel (but down from 86.4% since May 2021), and 14.6% run on AMD (up from 9.6% since May 2021).  So, when I am talking about "AMD is once again competitive", I mean the situation has significantly changed in 2021, from say 2020 or 2019.)

This leaves me puzzled.

Every submodel has to be competitive (in terms of both price and performance) with respect to the competitors, especially AMD, possibly ARM-based ones too, or customers will just use the competitors processors instead.  I do not see how Intel intends to pull that off in practice.  It's not like people by server farms first and then seek use cases for them; the need exists before the purchase, in this business domain.

My guess is that a convincing salesdrone has hoodwinked the Intel board to try this, with some fancy calculations on how this will let them somehow subsidize Top 500 or some other server sector purchases, and buttress their business against competition somehow, and will somehow be profitable.

Perhaps; I just don't see how.  Those salesdrones are much better at getting paid and moving on before the actual results are realized.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 04:06:54 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2021, 04:49:53 pm »
I'm not a huge fan of this, but I wouldn't have a big problem with it as long as once you paid for the extra features, the implemented licensing scheme would allow you to *permanently* own the new features, would never be able to disable them behind your back, and would never ever spy on usage or do any kind of telemetry.

Another byproduct of this licensing scheme is that it maximizes the margin for vendors - so at the expense of their customers.
 

Offline mfro

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2021, 05:02:33 pm »

I personally do not object to this practice in principle.

I do. At least in some market segments where this practice is excessive.

Take large storage systems sold with "capacity on demand". They are full of disks, all of them spinning (if they still do) and wasting (lots of) energy, wear and tear, it's just you can't use them because they are disabled by software configuration. That's waste of energy and resources and somebody has to pay for it. Unfortunately, it's those that still do careful capacity planning trying to only buy what they need.
Beethoven wrote his first symphony in C.
 

Offline olkipukki

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2021, 06:10:20 pm »
The next step will be subscription based CPUs? :popcorn:
Actually, it would be great and will acceleration ARM/RISC-V adaptation with $$$ investments much quicker than these days...

Intel are not stupid, just test the water
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2021, 06:27:04 pm »
Yep, PKTKS, do you have to spread FUD in every single thread?

It is great to have an option to enable certain features for a fee after the purchase. I'd like to buy the most basic CPU and then enable features as needed instead of buying the most expensive CPU right away just in case. If they see it as economically viable, then what's the issue? Does it burn you knowing that there is hardware right there that you can't use? Why? And if so, as it has been said, most modern microcontrollers include a ton of hardware that is disabled and not accessible on lower end models, but they can be reprogrammed at the factory to be higher end models.

But it looks like they are only doing it for server CPUs anyway.

How about this. The CPU slows down over time unless you feed it periodic unlock codes.

 :scared:

(Don't think they haven't thought about it.)  :)

I have a  better...

You paid a 32 CORE CPU...
They locked 28 cores unless you pay monthly fees...

But. you still consumes power over 32 CPUs and they require you to run an invasive daemon to monitor you CPU usage.. :o

If I buy a car or motorcycle I expect they have wheels and functional parts..
fuck off this greed.

Paul  :popcorn:

The unused cores wouldn't be clocked so they wouldn't consume any power. No daemon is needed to monitor CPU usage, because there are only 4 CPUs. They're not turning it off if you don't pay a subscription because all changes require a cold boot to take effect, and the licenses are written permanently into NVRAM.

You've read nothing.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2021, 07:20:51 pm »
I personally do not object to this practice in principle.
I do. At least in some market segments where this practice is excessive.

Take large storage systems sold with "capacity on demand". They are full of disks, all of them spinning (if they still do) and wasting (lots of) energy, wear and tear, it's just you can't use them because they are disabled by software configuration.
To me, that is due to lack of competition.  I'm pretty sure a competitor could sell only partially populated systems at a cheaper price, since they don't need to buy the unused hardware in the first place.

The fact that these systems tend to have an "Enterprise" price tag while using exact same consumer-quality components, is what annoys me much, much more.  (Even more, when they use "enterprise" parts that have lower quality and performance than consumer-quality parts.. but that gets into rant territory.)
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2021, 07:23:19 pm »
Intel are not stupid, just test the water
And they do occasionally misstep, too.  To me, this has a distinct salesdroid stank to it.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2021, 08:03:45 pm »
It's not stupidity. It's greed.
 
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Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: SDL - WTF is that in my paid hardware..
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2021, 09:52:30 pm »
There are real-world scenarios where software-enabled hardware features make both the minimum and maximum-featured versions cheaper to their end users.
It all depends on how much the added volume reduces the per-unit costs, how much design, setup, and manufacturing costs are saved by using only one hardware base instead of several for the models, and so on.

Intel already does this with its processors, by testing and binning the chips as they come off the wafers, and selling the differently-capable ones under different model names, maximising their manufacturing yields.  I don't see how they could shift from that to software-enabled hardware features without AMD selling more capable processors at cheaper prices just by using the tried-and-true binning method.
 


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