Author Topic: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...  (Read 1680 times)

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Offline PKTKS

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Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« on: October 26, 2021, 01:56:48 pm »
Just checked the ISO on i386 vanilla..

Works absolutely as it should:
PROs:
- good light fast responsive INITD (for real stuff)
- all things ready to casual deploy of base or advance use
- xterm and basic stuff available
- good default scripts.

CONs:
- crippled XOrg base install - using lightdm instead of XDMCP
- too much bloated stuff for base install
-  *ALOT* of  USELESS launcher gizmos  under the hood


OVERALL ? very good.

https://9to5linux.com/systemd-free-mx-linux-21-officially-released-based-on-debian-gnu-linux-11-bullseye

Shot attached on vanilla QEMU VM ...

IMHO? fast light and usable

Paul
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2021, 03:55:25 pm »
If the name MX Linux is not familiar, it sprung from the former MEPIS community, with some tools from antiX.

Links: MX Linux home, and downloads.  The latest release, MX Linux "Wildflower", or just MX-21, was released in October 2021.  In addition to XFCE, there are variants with Fluxbox and KDE Plasma desktop environments.

I haven't used the latest version not at all, so do not have an opinion.  MX Linux is definitely a desktop user oriented distribution that you can use with or without systemd.
In comparison, systemd-related packages are banned in base Devuan Chimaera, the version based on the same Debian 11 Bullseye as MX Linux Wildflower is.

 
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Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2021, 05:40:44 pm »

I am all curious about where  these names came from..  ???

a PET? like Impish Indri
A cursed chick Wildflower  :o

WTF these names help us...   yet to figure...

but I give a shit for that..
They have put together a very good option set from i386 to x64
all with choices.. being based on a stable Debian... good enough..

give me a break with these names..and crappy desktops ..

MIMIC windooze just does not help at all.

Paul
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2021, 09:05:16 pm »
I am all curious about where  these names came from..  ???
Directly from a list.  Devuan picks the names from the Minor planet names list; see here.

That page mentions that there is one reason to use release names (that I was previously unaware of): in .deb packages, using the release name instead of the version number (that would clash across debian-derived distributions), ensures consistent package dependencies.

(Like I've mentioned before, I too do prefer just straight-up version numbers myself.  But, when you deal with nontechnical humans, they tend to fail with the numbers, and do much better if stuff is given names.  With .deb packages, using the release name also kinda-sorta defines the distribution, so clashes by mix-matching package sources should be minimized.)

MIMIC windooze just does not help at all.
I don't see windows-mimicking here.  Naming versions is a decades-old if not centuries-old practice from science and engineering.

As to the  desktops, I really like XFCE and LXDE.
XFCE is very lightweight, fast, and modular, but doesn't have much bling.  I like the lack of bling myself.
(LXDE is similarly lightweight, fast, and modular, and has some optional bling. Mostly, the difference between XFCE and LXDE is in the default apps.  In both, you can use Gnome and KDE Plasma applications, too.  It's only the menu, dock/taskbar and its special applets, file manager, and utilities, that are specific to your desktop environment, really.)
KDE Plasma is those who feel better using their tools with some designer bling.

Choosing a desktop environment is important, but by no means irreversible. Not that big of a deal, if you change your mind.  It is completely possible and normal to have different desktop environments, selectable at login time.  It takes some "extra" disk space (libraries and such stuff), but that's about it.

When customizing a desktop environment for a set of users, the choice of which desktop environment works best definitely depends on the users, in my opinion.
In an organization, customizing the look with some proper graphics design (but without sacrificing usability or functionality) seems to work very much like branding in marketing; in my experience, it seems to make it easier for the users to take control of their tools, suggest enhancements, and so on.

In my opinion, the ability to switch desktop environments, and having multiple desktop environments in the first place, is a huge plus; something neither Windows nor Macs really have.  The modularity and configurability is exceptional – if we exclude Gnome, which does seem to be travelling in the Windows/Mac "we know better, you don't need to customize anything" direction.

When I customize a new Linux desktop installation for myself, I not only arrange stuff how I like them – like keyboard shortcuts, my custom udev rules for microcontroller development, my browser addons and configuration, my text editor dark custom themes, my custom scripts and utilities in ~/bin/ –, but I also do stuff like set up default page templates in LibreOffice and Inkscape to my own liking.  I usually take a lazy day to explore if there is some better stuff I could switch to (like I switched from gedit to pluma), and do all that prep work; but then, even a completely new distro feels like mine, like slippers that have just moulded to your feet but still "new", not yet ratty from use.

The next desktop I'll build will have two NVMe's (probably Samsung 980 Pros, either 512 GiB or 1 TiB), so that I can have even more fun playing with virtual machines.
The storage speed is absolutely crucial nowadays with respect to the "snappiness" of the system.  Even with a weak CPU (or a virtualized CPU limited to a single core), if you have fast enough storage, stuff tends to work acceptably fast.  With virtual machines, if you have lots of RAM and fast storage, you don't need much CPU resources to have it respond snappily.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2021, 09:08:16 pm by Nominal Animal »
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2021, 03:49:12 pm »
Looks like major distros are forking Debian dropping that shitty resource hog systemd...

MX and now antiX  ...  personally I dropped even EUDEV on my systems..
But EUDEV (from gentoo) is the best UDEV replacement..

https://antixlinux.com/antix-21-grup-yorum-released/

https://youtu.be/mUicofUy3Bk

Nice very clean and light with plenty options to deploy a minimal station.
i386 with fluxbox SysV runs on any imaginable gadget..

Paul
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2021, 05:38:12 pm »
But EUDEV (from gentoo) is the best UDEV replacement..

eudev is dead.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2021, 05:45:11 pm »
All my base system from a decade now forks LFS.

LFS still  uses EUDEV as a fallback to UDEV in a systemd free setup.

I ditched both at all.

I consider them a major security risk.
No daemon or applet should ever create or delete a single device on a sane system.

But you know,.. MIMIC windoozee... and make a PC looks and behave like a TOASTER..

press button PUF.. bang... ding...

Paul
 

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2021, 06:58:24 pm »
eudev is dead.
No, Gentoo just switched to sys-fs/udev instead.

eudev is now independent of Gentoo project, and is supported by Alpine, Devuan and Gentoo contributors, and doing just fine: it's not going anywhere.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2021, 07:27:09 pm »
eudev is dead.
No, Gentoo just switched to sys-fs/udev instead.

eudev is now independent of Gentoo project, and is supported by Alpine, Devuan and Gentoo contributors, and doing just fine: it's not going anywhere.

Good to know..  and it should not go anywhere really.

It is a placeholder stable enough to fill that nasty requirement.

BTW.. I LOVE Alpine linux very much...   
on e of the best lean distros out there..

Paul
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2021, 07:30:48 pm »
eudev is dead.
No, Gentoo just switched to sys-fs/udev instead.

eudev is now independent of Gentoo project, and is supported by Alpine, Devuan and Gentoo contributors, and doing just fine: it's not going anywhere.

Oh, I hadn't seen any announcement someone picked it up. Good to know, I guess.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2021, 07:32:39 pm by Monkeh »
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2021, 03:12:32 am »
Just checked the ISO on i386 vanilla..

CONs:
- crippled XOrg base install - using lightdm instead of XDMCP

I use a debian install by preference and never taken a look at MX so I'm not sure if this is releavent.

I currently am using lightdm as my display manager and I have XDMCP configured and working well so can you explain a little further how MX using lightdm is a problem for XDMCP users? Did MX screw something up?

My issues at the moment have little to do with the display manager. Most of the bugs I run into seem to be XFCE4 releated. For example XFCE4 no longer allows multiple sessions. If you create a second session it dies silently following login. Well known problem and no likely fix as the defect was closed. I've also had issues with NVIDIA and DRM (incompatable openGL libs). I will ditch XFCE just need some time to find something else lightweight (it's just not been a priority).
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2021, 09:38:04 am »
It seems to be an undisclosed trend to demote X  as much as possible.. eventually replacing all X parts into what seems to be wayland...

This is not clear to me but surely there are sponsored interests promoting wayland with lightdm instead of the full X stack

Arguments as usual.. old this too much that.. developers this modern that

Fact that nothing so far is capable to replace  the full X stack including XDM used to offer the services. There is nothing similar.

Reason why another remote protocol proprietary but suddenly offered free is being largely voiced on midia

So far X is too powerful to put current business on top of it

Seems it will  be "deprecated"  to allow the current CORPORATE KIOSK  computer to continue as in the last 4 decades

It means DEMOTE XDM and replace that with single display model... lightxxx

IMHO
Paul
 
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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2021, 12:39:25 am »
- crippled XOrg base install - using lightdm instead of XDMCP
Are you aware that lightdm nowadays supports XDMCP?  You only need to add
    [XDMCPServer]
    enabled=true
to /etc/lightdm/lightdm.conf to enable it.  Not having it enabled by default is a separate thing, and really a distro decision; remember, MX Linux is a desktop distribution, so having a local DM too is kinda important.

Or is there a bug or issue I'm not aware of?  (The only related one I'm aware of was reported in Dec 2017 and fixed in Jan 2018, and involved issues closing an XDMCP session.  I don't often use XDMCP, so I could easily have missed it completely.)

lightdm is a Canonical project, but since it is hosted at github, the most visible thing is that its releases are sync'd to Ubuntu releases; if you look at the closed issues, you'll see that bugs affecting non-Ubuntu distros are either self-gotchas or fixed just like those in Ubuntu.  It's not a bad little daemon, in my opinion.
 

Offline blacksheeplogic

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2021, 12:41:16 am »
Arguments as usual.. old this too much that.. developers this modern that

Kind of my memories of working with the LTC, very tied up in the latest technology, up their own as'es about how great it was and how they were leading the way etc. Could not understand that outside of their elite circle it was just a tool to get the job done, known one cares about how neat it is on the outside if it's there to run the business and get the work done.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2021, 08:12:04 am »
Scattering developers...

Promoting fragmentation...

Multilple apparently doing same thing applets...

Demoting the inners of the full X stack to achieve what?

Obviously  a sponsored and well known method to implod the whole thing

Follow the money and think who benefits from the above ....

This business is not mindless

Paul
 

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2021, 11:50:07 am »
Multilple apparently doing same thing applets...
In Ubuntu et al., lightdm replaced gdm, which to be honest, is a buggy piece of shit.  To me, the history looks more like Gnome developers doing their inane thing, necessitating something else to take its place.  Lightdm is used for exactly that, replacing gdm with something better, more robust, and more lightweight, in the distros I use.

If I had to use gdm, I'd fucking rewrite it from scratch myself, it was that bad.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2021, 03:26:27 pm »
Multilple apparently doing same thing applets...
In Ubuntu et al., lightdm replaced gdm, which to be honest, is a buggy piece of shit.  To me, the history looks more like Gnome developers doing their inane thing, necessitating something else to take its place.  Lightdm is used for exactly that, replacing gdm with something better, more robust, and more lightweight, in the distros I use.

If I had to use gdm, I'd fucking rewrite it from scratch myself, it was that bad.

Tried KDM way back in 2000s ...

So many trouble and unreliable things...

Dropped them all.

Nobody needs nothing besides plain xdm - reliable light and easy to deploy

Never changed .. 2...3 decades ago.. ::)
Paul
 

Online Monkeh

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2021, 09:50:47 pm »
Nobody needs nothing besides what I use

 ::)
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2021, 04:42:35 am »
As I've mentioned before, the existence of alternatives is crucial for the entire ecosystem to thrive and compete, so even if I were to use a specific one of the alternatives and believe it currently the best among the bunch, I'd still support the development of the alternatives, to keep the competition healthy and future options open.

The two-decade history of the GNOME Project, or indeed how Red Hat slowly shifted from a proponent of open source to just another vendor with a walled garden were the vendor knows best, should be reason enough.
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2021, 08:54:08 am »
Nobody needs nothing besides what I use

 ::)

Funny but not true at all

We need duplicates even triplicates of things just in case as pointed by NOMINAL

But vendors need a particular solution for themselves only as also pointed by NOMINAL

And that is the first case you just muck me instead of insulting
 
Progress...  ::)
Paul
 

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2021, 02:26:48 pm »
Nobody needs nothing besides what I use

 ::)

Funny but not true at all

Well, you did write
Nobody needs nothing besides plain xdm - reliable light and easy to deploy
so you must admit, your post did read a bit like that, at least with respect to display managers.

There are a couple of reasons to use LightDM instead of XDM, though:
  • LightDM has built-in support for suspend if you close the laptop lid while in the greeter.  XDM will not, wasting battery.
  • LightDM lets you select the desktop environment you want to use at login time.  XDM always uses the current default (last active) desktop environment.
The first one would be hard to fix in XDM; it is a designed-in feature of LightDM.  The latter could be added to XDM, if one wanted to, without too much hassle.
I use a laptop and sometimes switch desktop environments to check something out, so LightDM fits my needs much better than XDM does.
If I used XDM, I would have to remember never to leave it running in the greeter (as that'd waste energy), and to change desktop environments I'd have to log in to manually switch my desktop environment first.
 

Online DiTBho

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2021, 02:39:37 pm »
the real problem I have is python

When python is used to manage everything, packages, upadates, configuration, etc, it's a serious problem if you have to maintain four versions

# sys info python-exec
python2.7
python3.7
python3.8
python3.9

and I cannot remove anyone of them because they have different dependencies with the rest of system.


Not good for me, I'm working on cleaning these things up, but hey? Things have gotten a little complex recently ain't it?
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2021, 02:48:25 pm »
When python is used to manage everything, packages, upadates, configuration, etc, it's a serious problem if you have to maintain four versions
Definitely.  I prefer one, 3.x (with x >= 6), but will accept two (the other being 2.7) if Python 2 support is really needed for something.  And, like I said, I don't use pip3 because I want the system package manager to manage the version dependencies.  Sometimes that means making a local Debian/RPM package of a Python 3 library, but even that is preferable to the dependency hell you can get into with pip3.  All Python code I myself write is for 3.6+ (i.e., requires Python 3.6 or later).
 

Offline PKTKS

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Re: Systemd free MX-linux-21 based on debian 11 bullseye...
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2021, 04:24:13 pm »
Nobody needs nothing besides what I use

 ::)

Funny but not true at all

Well, you did write
Nobody needs nothing besides plain xdm - reliable light and easy to deploy
so you must admit, your post did read a bit like that, at least with respect to display managers.

There are a couple of reasons to use LightDM instead of XDM, though:
  • LightDM has built-in support for suspend if you close the laptop lid while in the greeter.  XDM will not, wasting battery.
  • LightDM lets you select the desktop environment you want to use at login time.  XDM always uses the current default (last active) desktop environment.
(..)


Actually I solved both issues way back in 2000s something.

After nasty problems with these XXXdm herd .. GDM KDM WDM and others..
Each one requires a proper toolkit version.. matched things..

I got sick of them all. Reverted back to XDM using the plain session manager
Secure safe login and start my own "DESKTOP" chooser.

The chooser is written in Perl::Gtk
Still tied to Gtk ( and PERL) but orders of magnitude safer.

I can log off in case I am mobile or just shut down the server to console blank auto saver.

Problem solved for good.. 20y  ago more or less
SHOT attached..

the manager cares to initialize whatever "desktop "i need

Which happens to have a MONITOR SERVICE PATTERN AS WELL

Things of a service bench only..

Those never initiated with X session management will not see how
simple stable and bullet proof this solution is..

The OFF button puts the session in console mode
auto saving starts in one minute.

Paul

« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 04:30:15 pm by PKTKS »
 


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