[solved] TEX YodaII, keyboard: opinions?

[legacy]

does anywone use it? if so, it'd like to hear what you think, and your feedback, especially if you are a programmer and use vim or emacs on the text console.

edit:
solved

[jadew]

It looks stupid.

[LeonR]

If I was to pay US$300 for a keyboard it'd better be using telepathy to read my mind and type stuff for me. 

Seriously, I can't see the point on a higher investment than a good rubber dome keyboard. Mine lasts at least 10 years without a hitch (I'm using a A4Tech G600 ATM). I've tried a mechanic keyboard before and couldn't see what's all the fuss around it is about, and sold it a couple months later.

If you're looking into models with macros there are options that costs a fraction of that price.

[Black Phoenix]

does anywone use it? if so, it'd like to hear what you think, and your feedback, especially if you are a programmer and use vim or emacs on the text console.

I use a similar keyboard, the NightFox by Input Club, 65% (the difference is that includes arrows and PrintScreen, Delete, Page Up and Page Down) in terms of layout.

It's exactly as a normal keyboard but without the extra line of F keys (available in the second layer, with 8 layers to program with different functions, changeable with FN and number).

Compared with this one that includes the trackpoint and I suppose that the buttons under the space bar is for left, change to scroll and right click right? Also the backspace is on the number row, as a normal keyboard. In the Nightfox is like the HHKB, in the QWERTY Row, so it may need some training to get it right.

I can't give feedback in terms of the use of the trackpoint and the scroll, but I love the 65% layout in terms of extra space available. My next step will be a trackball (and learn how to use one) and I can even have more space available for other stuff. Also a mechanical keyboard helps to type faster, specially if the keys are tactile, were you don't need to bottom out the key like in membrane keyboards, just press enough until you feel the tactile bump, and you can move your finger to the next key knowing it activate it.

If I was to pay US$300 for a keyboard it'd better be using telepathy to read my mind and type stuff for me. 

Seriously, I can't see the point on a higher investment than a good rubber dome keyboard. Mine lasts at least 10 years without a hitch (I'm using a A4Tech G600 ATM). I've tried a mechanic keyboard before and couldn't see what's all the fuss around it is about, and sold it a couple months later.

If you're looking into models with macros there are options that costs a fraction of that price.

Or a Topre, or as I call High Class Rubber Dome (and I open the can of worms with Topre Fans).

Mate, once you use a mechanical you don't go back. Mine costs near US$200, but I saw keyboards in the order of US$500 and even more. It's a hobby as many others, with quality products and normal products. Just like Automatic watches, you have Seiko's and Citizen's and even other brands who use SII Movement (Seiko) or Miyota Movement (Citizen) in the lower end (and High End) and brands like Hublot and Patek Philippe who costs thousands.

Some people are happy with the Casio F-91W, other prefer an Omega Seamaster.

[LeonR]

Mate, once you use a mechanical you don't go back.

I must be a special case then. Got a Meka G-Unit some good years ago and sold it after a couple months since all I got was more noise while typing (it used black switches).

I used to buy Logitech mice (G500, G600, G700, G402, G403) as soon as they were released. Sold them all after some time and stuck with my trusty G400s. Sometimes less is more.

The classic Realforces are beautiful, especially the ones with grey and white keycaps. Simple and elegant, but I'm wary to splurge the asked price on them.

[SiliconWizard]

A 60% keyboard is just too basic for my needs. I've tried one of those before, and it was just not usable to me. Keys (especially for arrow keys) too close to one another, important keys missing... But if you're comfortable with that, go ahead. Some people are. And yes, it's very expensive for what it seems to be, but it's your call. The pricing is understandable for a low-volume production.

I personally have a 88 keys (often called "10KL") keyboard, basically an ISO keyboard with no num pad (which I find adds too much width to the keyboard, making the use of a mouse more uncomfortable). I have an additional num pad, but I rarely use it! This keyboard is the first one I actually made myself. It uses Cherry MX brown keyswitches, and custom-designed aluminum plates. Works great (and it always feels good to type on your own creation!) For the controller, I used a Teensy 3.2 and I customized the following firmware: https://github.com/kiibohd/controller

[Black Phoenix]

For the controller, I used a Teensy 3.2 and I customized the following firmware: https://github.com/kiibohd/controller

Same as the WhiteFox/NightFox. I also used TKLs for a while, my last one was the Logitech G Pro (Yes I like the Romer-G switches that most keyboard enthusiast hate with passion) until I had the chance to get a NightFox to try, and now TKLs look too big to me. Since it's a 65% it have arrows and most used keys in the home/end cluster. Plus since I don't use the F keys most of the time, they are OK by using FN + 1 for F1, Fn + 2 for F2, etc.

All aluminium build with Input Club Hako Clear (Medium weight Tactile switch with a standard 75g spring) that get very heavy after the actuation point, discouraging bottoms out.

[legacy]

This keyboard is the first one I actually made myself

pic?

[legacy]

My next step will be a trackball

(Ametek Traxsys TrackBall 50mm, PS/2)

like this one? 

it's a trackball found in a military installation in Greenland. It's really heavy and big. Too big, and solid like a tank. In the pic, it's compared to a pound coin.


(RadioShack - A4TECH WT7, PS/2)

I bought this one for my RiscPC, just because you need three buttons to operate with RiscOS. This trackball is cheap, and smaller; it's "OK", but not good as a primary pointing device.

[legacy]

(CHERRY G84-4400, PS/2, pic made by my friend, I have exactly the same keyboard)

This is the keyboard I am currently using. It was found as second hand, very cheap, paid 50 euro for it. Keys are very good; the trackball is not so good, it's "ok", better than the RadioShack - A4TECH WT7, but it tends to be a bit "scratchy" and I am not really sure it's really 400DPI, and it has only two buttons.

[Ampera]

So a 10 keyless Cherry MX keyboard?

It doesn't seem anything special at all besides the nub.

I have a 100 dollar Ducky One with Cherry MX Greens (yes greens), and I quite like it. It's solid, the right price, and feels great.

[rsjsouza]

I had elbow muscle pains from the repetitive typing and tried many alternative keyboards. I then got a NOS IBM model M keyboard from Unicomp and my elbow pains are fully gone.

The year I did this move was 2015 and to this date the pains haven't come back. I haven't tried the cherry or other mechanical ones, though (at home I have a Microsoft 2000 rubber keyboard but I don't type there as much).

[Black Phoenix]

(Ametek Traxsys TrackBall 50mm, PS/2)

like this one? 

No, I'm torn between this 2:



Logitech MX Ergo


Elecom M-XT3DRBK

[magic]

Cherry is a silly fad and 60% is the dumbest fad, get a Model M

They are (somewhat) ergonomically curved, they are loud, they are designed to survive liquids (within reason) and they won't drive you nuts if you ever try to use LTspice

[Zucca]

Black Phoenix I bought a Logitech MX Ergo two months ago with great expectations.
After two weeks I sold it, it did not work for me and went back to the old good mouse.

[tszaboo]

Here is the relevant subreddit for people who spend more money on keyboards than regular people on computers:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/

[Black Phoenix]

Black Phoenix I bought a Logitech MX Ergo two months ago with great expectations.
After two weeks I sold it, it did not work for me and went back to the old good mouse.

That's what makes me thing twice, since I was always a mice guy, I can count with the fingers of my hand the times I used a trackball. To spend a lot of money on a trackball and then have to sell it on deficit it's something I'm really not interested.

[rsjsouza]

Black Phoenix I bought a Logitech MX Ergo two months ago with great expectations.
After two weeks I sold it, it did not work for me and went back to the old good mouse.

That's what makes me thing twice, since I was always a mice guy, I can count with the fingers of my hand the times I used a trackball. To spend a lot of money on a trackball and then have to sell it on deficit it's something I'm really not interested.

I was a heavy user of Logitech's old marble trackball. I think it is much more accurate than a mouse, but it has the drawback of having to clean the ball regularly.

It dropped out of favour when I started to have muscle pain in the tendon of my thumb. I got an ambidextrous mouse instead.

[legacy]

Cherry is a silly fad and 60% is the dumbest fad ... won't drive you nuts if you ever try to use LTspice

I bought my CHERRY G84-4400 only because found for cheap, and I needed something compact with a built-in pointing device.

I don't like it as the definitive device, but it's not too bad. At least it doesn't cause me any problem with LTspice, Tina, ISE, EagleCad (trackball-events intensive), even if I do spend more time with VIM and Geany (keys pressing intensive), and as a premium, it's so small and compact that I can put it into my suitcase and bring it with me on traveling.

[LeonR]

It dropped out of favour when I started to have muscle pain in the tendon of my thumb. I got an ambidextrous mouse instead.

Give MX 518 Legendary a try. I think it's one of the greatest shapes ever created since it just "flows" with a relaxed hand position.

I also suggest using a large mousepad that you can rest you wrist and some of your arm into it. I use a qck Mass and the extra thickness absorbs most of the pressure you put into it while using it.

https://i.postimg.cc/9FhbbB2g/IMG-20191204-101509.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/TYJ94WYd/IMG-20191204-101531.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/MZRt1FCj/IMG-20191204-101539.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/25tRLKPK/IMG-20191204-101806.jpg

[legacy]

guys, is there any TrackPoint standalone kit?

[Black Phoenix]

guys, is there any TrackPoint standalone kit?

For what I know, no, it's only integrated in IBM/Lenovo keyboards. Although some years ago there was mice with trackpoint nibs:





There was also something similar in Kickstarter some time ago:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/swiftpoint/tracpoint

[SiliconWizard]

This keyboard is the first one I actually made myself

pic?

There you go. It's a very "bare" design. But it just works.

[calin]

Go find an IBM Model M keyboard and try it ... you will never go back after you had it 

[legacy]

There you go. It's a very "bare" design. But it just works.

is it CNC cut? how did you desin the mechanics, and how did you cut it? is there a service?
besides, what about the PCB? I am considering something similar because an homemade keyboard potentially might allow extra features, like a smartcard reader for the login.

Cherry has similar keyboards (with a built-in smartcard reader), but they are big, ugly, and not comfortable at all 

[legacy]

IBM Model M keyboard

is there any good review? and where do you suggest to buy one? on eBay? or ... on some forum's bazaar?

[SiliconWizard]

There you go. It's a very "bare" design. But it just works.

is it CNC cut? how did you desin the mechanics, and how did you cut it? is there a service?

Yes it's CNC cut, and I used: https://www.john-steel.com/ (I'm sure there are plenty of such companies worldwide...)
I designed the mechanical parts with Draftsight. I started from a DXF file with a typical ISO layout that I found online, to get the key spacing right.

besides, what about the PCB?

It's a 1.6mm, 2-layer PCB. The top aluminum plate supports the keyswitches, so very little constraint is transmitted to the PCB itself. So no special measure for the PCB design.
For the MX keyswitches, you can find mechanical info in this: https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Cherry%20PDFs/MX%20Series.pdf

I ordered the keycaps there: https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/87-key-custom-cherry-mx-keycap-set-1.html

You can find cheaper keycaps from other sources, including Aliexpress.

[legacy]

Found this list. Links point to projects on github.

Some are good.

[magic]

IBM Model M keyboard

is there any good review? and where do you suggest to buy one? on eBay? or ... on some forum's bazaar?

Last time I cared about those things Unicomp still made them.

Reviews? That should be everywhere, once you get past the mountains of g4m!ng hype, that is. Some crazies unearthing old Model Ms was what actually started that whole mechanical keyboard fad fifteen years ago; this and the Das Keyboard I think. Whose version 1, by the way, didn't even use Cherries but was a rubber dome thing with case shaped to mimic the M.

And... maybe I should ask, is the Das still around or does mentioning it make me sound like a dinosaur?

[SiliconWizard]

Of course it is still around: https://www.daskeyboard.com/

[magic]

What a relief

Though I must say that RGB baclighting is not exactly what this keyboard originally was about

[jadew]

Found this list. Links point to projects on github.

Some are good.

They all look like hipster garbage.

Compact keyboards are awful for any real work and it's silly to spend any money on them. There are plenty of keyboards with full functionality and high quality switches that are also priced reasonably.

Regarding the M, it was a good keyboard, but you wouldn't be able to use it unless you lived alone or didn't give a damn about the people around you. That thing is LOUD. Also, it's missing the windows key which takes away a lot of functionality from a keyboard, because it can be used for lots of nice shortcuts on any OS.

If you really want a compact keyboard, at least get one with F keys.

[SiliconWizard]

Though I must say that RGB baclighting is not exactly what this keyboard originally was about

Certainly, but after the ultra-geeky crowd interested in mechanical keyboards bought their DAS, the company probably had to find ways to keep making money...

[magic]

Those small keyboards are strictly a thing for coding drones who have never used any software other than a text editor and are proud of it.

Certainly, but after the ultra-geeky crowd interested in mechanical keyboards bought their DAS, the company probably had to find ways to keep making money...

Das Keyboard was always about money; real men did bolt mods on Ms picked from dumpsters or searched eBay for vintage ALPS and true hipsters bought tenkeyless Filcos.

But yes, it shows how the posers have changed

[legacy]

They all look like hipster garbage.

"Good" with the meaning that you find project-files.

[chickenHeadKnob]

A 60% keyboard is just too basic for my needs. I've tried one of those before, and it was just not usable to me. Keys (especially for arrow keys) too close to one another, important keys missing... But if you're comfortable with that, go ahead. Some people are. And yes, it's very expensive for what it seems to be, but it's your call. The pricing is understandable for a low-volume production.

I personally have a 88 keys (often called "10KL") keyboard, basically an ISO keyboard with no num pad (which I find adds too much width to the keyboard, making the use of a mouse more uncomfortable). I have an additional num pad, but I rarely use it! This keyboard is the first one I actually made myself. It uses Cherry MX brown keyswitches, and custom-designed aluminum plates. Works great (and it always feels good to type on your own creation!) For the controller, I used a Teensy 3.2 and I customized the following firmware: https://github.com/kiibohd/controller

I am about as far away from being a keyboard weenie/aficionado as you can imagine. Actually I have a slight  preference for those apple desktop  flat chicklet x-switch keyboards, but I am too embarrassed  to admit it. 
And those apple keyboards are too susceptible to contamination and fluids in my hands

I am old enough to have used original IBM PC's model M. They are OK, noisy as hell with strong springs. I like the strong springs and heavy feel , but otherwise not that impressed. So  I was looking at mechanical keyboards 18 months ago with a bit of "fear of missing out" psychology influencing me when I came upon these Glorious Gaming modular keyboards. They pretty much offer the same bespoke choice of key switches as silicon wizards custom job without all the extra work. And I am all about the lazy! Metal frames in three layouts full, 10 keyless (the one I chose), or compact. You then buy the switch type of your liking and plug them in. It has the gaudy gamer led backlighting, but it is simple to set that to a mono color or off.

my ten keyless with a bag of Gateron greens came to about $124 us. Gateron greens are the heaviest force springs. I received a bag of 120 so that I still have a lifetime supply of spares if a few go bad.

link here:https://www.pcgamingrace.com/products/the-glorious-gmmk-usa-custom

[legacy]

Those small keyboards are strictly a thing for coding drones who have never used any software other than a text editor and are proud of it.

bah, I tried a Japanese HHKB keyboard. It's a 60% keyboard and it perfectly fits my fingers on VIM as well as my suitcase, and this is a premium.

I have no problem with EagleCAD and LTspice. The real problem is ... it's not my property, and I need a PS/2 keyboard. HHKBs are all USB nowadays.

A further problem, it doesn't have a built-in Trackpoint or a trackball, and the trackball they gave me in the military base in Greenland is three times bigger than a 60%-keyboard, and this actually looks suspiciously too hipster and it might potentially cause you some problem at the airport.

I'd really like to have something with a built-in Trackpoint. And something small. 60% or 65%

[Black Phoenix]

Those small keyboards are strictly a thing for coding drones who have never used any software other than a text editor and are proud of it.

bah, I tried a Japanese HHKB keyboard. It's a 60% keyboard and it perfectly fits my fingers on VIM as well as my suitcase, and this is a premium.

I have no problem with EagleCAD and LTspice. The real problem is ... it's not my property, and I need a PS/2 keyboard. HHKBs are all USB nowadays.

A further problem, it doesn't have a built-in Trackpoint or a trackball, and the trackball they gave me in the military base in Greenland is three times bigger than a 60%-keyboard, and this actually looks suspiciously too hipster and it might potentially cause you some problem at the airport.

I'd really like to have something with a built-in Trackpoint. And something small. 60% or 65%

Ahh now I understand, with PS2 and smaller:



Here some old versions with PS2 Mouse and Keyboard connectors:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-7316-TF2-Rack-Mount-Server-1U-Drawer-Flat-Panel-Console-Keyboard-Only-PARTS/133173575573?hash=item1f01c37f95:g:TPcAAOSwyX9df9Mq

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-NetBAY-2U-Flat-Panel-Monitor-Console-Kit-w-Keyboard-PS2-Cables-32P1702/184070094200?epid=1600259885&hash=item2adb6ebd78:g:VS0AAOSwl9xd6DVh

https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-SK-8840-Rackmount-Monitor-Keyboard-Console/254194564388?epid=1501591987&hash=item3b2f2d3d24:g:pEsAAOSw0w1crNd9

You can remove the keyboard from the metal rack and use it standalone.

[legacy]

Ahh now I understand, with PS2 and smaller:

Yup. The Cherry in the pic is decent, but not so good. Especially the trackball. And you can for sure get something smaller.
I was thinking about reflashing the TEX YodaII to make it PS/2. Technically it's possible.
And practically it's a bit heavy (due to the aluminum body), but it's small enough.

I also like the mechanical aspect of the thing, just it's damn too expensive for me.

Here some old versions with PS2 Mouse and Keyboard connectors:
You can remove the keyboard from the metal rack and use it standalone.

WOW! Great idea!!! This looks like a brilliant solution! Thank you 

[Black Phoenix]

Here some old versions with PS2 Mouse and Keyboard connectors:
You can remove the keyboard from the metal rack and use it standalone.

WOW! Great idea!!! This looks like a brilliant solution! Thank you 

As soon you explained the circumstances of your work and your needs I remembered the ones who normally are on IBM racks, with a LCD and Keyboard with the Trackpoint. Since you started with the Tex Yodall Keyboard, I was thinking that you wanted a system based in custom keyboard, with USB. As soon you talked about PS2 and the needs to take in your carry on I remembered this.

[legacy]

Just for curiosity, have you already seen this?
(ultimatehackingkeyboard)


(it's very expensive, don't look at the price list, especially with accessories)

[SiliconWizard]

I'd really like to have something with a built-in Trackpoint. And something small. 60% or 65%

All this is obviously down to each individual's needs and preferences. No need to argue. (I was in turn just saying what works for me.) I can't stand trackpoints either, but this is all again preferences. (I've always used mice - and touchpads on laptops, but of course a lot less - and I'm still the most comfortable with them. Had the chance of never having any syndrome due to using them. Selecting the mice that work best for your hand is a must, and using a small keyboard, such as a TKL, definitely helps. A mouse too far away from the keyboard will induce a lot more tension.)

As you probably already figured, online searches for what you're after mainly point to the Yoda II keyboard...

Probably not what you'd like to use, but you can find Lenovo USB keyboards with trackpoint for about 60 euros... (but those look very much like laptop keyboards, they are just stand-alone.)
https://www.lenovo.com/ie/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/keyboards/KEYBOARD-UK-English/p/0B47221
(Just saw that Black Phoenix posted a pic of that now... but anyway, you can have a brand new one for relatively "cheap".)

Another approach, faster than going fully custom, would be to buy a decent 60% keyboard, and modify it to accomodate a trackpoint device that you would scavenge from old laptop keyboards or something... (you would have to modify central keycaps and it could still be a bit tough to fit...)

[legacy]

Just saw that Black Phoenix posted a pic of that now

I have just followed his advice and bought a rack-keyboard 

Another approach, faster than going fully custom, would be to buy a decent 60% keyboard, and modify it to accomodate a trackpoint device that you would scavenge from old laptop keyboards or something... (you would have to modify central keycaps and it could still be a bit tough to fit...)

This has a lot of problems, because when I opened the HHKB keyboard of my friend, I found there is no space for anything inside the keyboard, hence if you want to add a Trackpoint, you need to add it outside, and this also opens the simple problem: where do you put the left and right buttons? 

Anyway, for the moment I am ok this way, and the above solution just works perfectly. I will put it into my suitcase and enjoy my travels.

In the future, maybe I will design my own keyboard, but it will be dedicated to the Sonoko project.

[Black Phoenix]

Just for curiosity, have you already seen this?
(ultimatehackingkeyboard)


(it's very expensive, don't look at the price list, especially with accessories)

Split is good for learning how to correctly type with all your fingers from a hand and it is also ergonomically good, specially if you can angle both half's outside.  Regarding the price, is the type of novelty. Just look at the KeyCult prices for their limited less than 50 boards:

Always above US$500 and it's missing the Switches, Stabilizers and Keys (you have to provide your own) who adds to more than US$700 finished plus labour. And because they are so limited, the prices of second hand sky-rocket to more than US$1000.

[legacy]

Talking about me, I don't know why there must be something wrong with the fingers(1) of my left hand, but I do find the CAPslock key so freaky terrible in a keyboard because I too often accidentally press it rather than pressing the tab key! So I seriously appreciated the HHKB of my friend for not having the CAPslock key at all.

Some keyboards do not have gaps between keys, and it's harder to hit the right key by touch. This is not the case, however I do press the tab key something like 10 times in a minute, and you can calculate the probability of collision with the CAPslock key.

I am surprised the key is present in the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. It shouldn't be there, because "hacking" should means the keyboard is designed for text editors rather than wordprocessors.

The terrible big CAPSlock key is also present in my Cherry keyboard, just in the place where it can collide with the pressure of the tab key. And how did I fix it? With a silicone drop under the key so it cannot be accidentally pressed as it usually happens when I type 


edit:
(1) I do press the tab key with the ring finger, the finger next to the little finger.

[SiliconWizard]

Talking about me, I don't know why there must be something wrong with the fingers(1) of my left hand, but I do find the CAPslock key so freaky terrible in a keyboard because I too often accidentally press it rather than pressing the tab key! So I seriously appreciated the HHKB of my friend for not having the CAPslock key at all.

Yeah, I think I never use CAPSLOCK whatsoever. Pretty useless IMO.
As to key spacing, this is very much down to each individual's preferences and habits. I usually find the very small keyboards (like 60%) have too narrow key spacing for my taste, but that's mainly a matter of habit.

A real problem IMO is when you have to use different keyboards with significantly different sizes/layouts. It always feels clunky for a while. That's mainly why I always stuck to the traditional ISO layout, even though I had thought of trying something completely different. At some point, I was curious about the TypeMatrix for instance: http://typematrix.com/ , but problem is, if I had switched to this, going back to a regular keyboard would probably be pretty hard.

[magic]

The terrible big CAPSlock key is also present in my Cherry keyboard, just in the place where it can collide with the pressure of the tab key. And how did I fix it? With a silicone drop under the key so it cannot be accidentally pressed as it usually happens when I type 

It's the Compose key, or perhaps Ctrl on some keyboards, and you just broke it
What even is that CapsLock thing you guys are talking about?

[westfw]

Those small keyboards are strictly a thing for coding drones who have never used any software other than a text editor and are proud of it.

Bring back the Stanford/MIT/Symbolics Space Cadet keyboards - control-meta-top-cokebottle for the win!




My favorite keyboard for a long time has been the Macintosh full-sized "chicklet" keyboard.  I expected to hate it, but the feel is good, the spacing is "right", and the one I have has lasted close to 10 years now (except for the worn-away tops of a couple keys...)

[legacy]

I had a skype call with my brother yesterday, and he told me he absolutely needs the Numpad because it's where he maps extra symbols for the CAD program he uses.

Oh, so he needs a *big* keyboard 

[Black Phoenix]

I had a skype call with my brother yesterday, and he told me he absolutely needs the Numpad because it's where he maps extra symbols for the CAD program he uses.

Oh, so he needs a *big* keyboard 

Then your brother would go crazy if he got one of these:



Keep us updated when you received the "rack" keyboard, I wanna see in what kind of environment you use it.