Author Topic: USB 3 and old folk  (Read 7099 times)

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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 12:18:59 am »
[...] "I don't know anyone who has a desktop anymore," [...]

People who use desktops tend to be creative types that need big screens as well as big computing power.  Of course they tend to have laptops and smaller mobile devices too.

The computing food chain:

Alpha level - One or more Desktops (or bigger!) with multiple monitors and hardwired Ethernet
Beta level   - Small desktop, laptop, convertible tablet, etc. with wireless local network
Pond life     - Mobile device only (phone, pad) with Internet only
 

Offline james_s

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2021, 07:33:35 am »
I do actually still own a desktop, but I have not booted it up in at least a year. The company I work for now is 100% laptops, nobody is issued a desktop as a company computer. Many people do dock laptops and use multiple monitors and various peripherals which covers the desktop use cases for them. Desktops have a lot of advantages, but for me I find that portability wins out and I end up living with the smaller display and crappy pointing device because I can sit on the sofa.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2021, 08:03:26 am »
Yeah laptop vs desktop entirely depends on what the person needs.

Some might value the portability of a laptop while others might value the power of a desktop.

Its not like you need a powerful computer to do most tasks these days, so even laptops with a more pedestrian level of performance are perfectly fine for a lot of people. So these people might see very little reason to use a desktop, for them a desktop is the same as a laptop that is strapped to a desk.

On the other end are people who want lots of computing power but don't want to buy a $3000 laptop to get it, they want dual or triple large monitors, want a big full sized keyboard, good speakers etc..

I personally fall into the desktop category. I want as much computing power as i can get on the cheep, i like being able to upgrade my PC in partial steps as one component becomes obsolete or dies. The computer i have is actually a Pentium 4 machine that got upgraded so many times that there no original parts left anymore (Not even the case, since modern hardware makes a lot more heat) at this point it got to a i7 4790K with a GTX 1070. I like using my computer at my desk, i don't see the reason to move it around the house, i don't find using a laptop on the sofa or in bed comfortable (but have a seperate PC hooked up to the TV). I do still have a laptop for when i need to take a computer on the go, but since i use it so rarely its gotten a bit dated being a ancient Core 2 Duo with integrated graphics. For simple computing tasks in portable form i find a better and cheaper solution is a tablet.
 

Offline PerranOakTopic starter

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2021, 08:52:20 am »
There's another reason for a desktop.

You convince "people" that certain things can only be done on the desktop (for security or performance reasons, say) then you have a ready excuse to go away into a different room and get some P&Q (peace and quiet).  :D
You can release yourself but the only way to go is down!
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2021, 10:53:22 am »
I do actually still own a desktop, but I have not booted it up in at least a year. The company I work for now is 100% laptops, nobody is issued a desktop as a company computer. Many people do dock laptops and use multiple monitors and various peripherals which covers the desktop use cases for them. Desktops have a lot of advantages, but for me I find that portability wins out and I end up living with the smaller display and crappy pointing device because I can sit on the sofa.

I often work with stuff that needs big monitors - the bigger, the better! - graphics, multi track sound editing, etc.  Our company only issues laptops as well, but I feed it into a monitor (and feed my keyboard/mouse into the laptop via a USB switch). 

My wife likes making health related videos and prefers using the desktop for video editing - a video editing app is also very "screen space intensive".  She is forever battling with the clammy death grip of Apple, trying to get material out of her iPad and into her PC for this reason!  :D


 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2021, 10:59:08 am »
Yeah laptop vs desktop entirely depends on what the person needs.

Some might value the portability of a laptop while others might value the power of a desktop.

Its not like you need a powerful computer to do most tasks these days, so even laptops with a more pedestrian level of performance are perfectly fine for a lot of people. So these people might see very little reason to use a desktop, for them a desktop is the same as a laptop that is strapped to a desk.

On the other end are people who want lots of computing power but don't want to buy a $3000 laptop to get it, they want dual or triple large monitors, want a big full sized keyboard, good speakers etc..

I personally fall into the desktop category. I want as much computing power as i can get on the cheep, i like being able to upgrade my PC in partial steps as one component becomes obsolete or dies. The computer i have is actually a Pentium 4 machine that got upgraded so many times that there no original parts left anymore (Not even the case, since modern hardware makes a lot more heat) at this point it got to a i7 4790K with a GTX 1070. I like using my computer at my desk, i don't see the reason to move it around the house, i don't find using a laptop on the sofa or in bed comfortable (but have a seperate PC hooked up to the TV). I do still have a laptop for when i need to take a computer on the go, but since i use it so rarely its gotten a bit dated being a ancient Core 2 Duo with integrated graphics. For simple computing tasks in portable form i find a better and cheaper solution is a tablet.

My favourite portable device at the moment is a little Lenovo Miix 2 8" tablet with a tiny little quad core Intel Atom, running Windows 8.1 -  small, light, fast, excellent screen, and Windows 8 is actually very good on a tablet!  Kind of like an iPad, except it allows you to do stuff!  :D
 

Offline james_s

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2021, 04:29:41 am »
My favourite portable device at the moment is a little Lenovo Miix 2 8" tablet with a tiny little quad core Intel Atom, running Windows 8.1 -  small, light, fast, excellent screen, and Windows 8 is actually very good on a tablet!  Kind of like an iPad, except it allows you to do stuff!  :D

Windows 8 could have really been quite good as a tablet OS. Their mistake was trying to unify the experience of two entirely different platforms with largely entirely different use cases. The result was an awkward mess like a tablet glued to the back of a laptop. Windows 10 made some improvements on the desktop side while making the tablet side worse. What they should have done is make a tablet OS that was entirely separate from the desktop/laptop OS and given them a similar look and feel and designing them to work well together but not a one sized fits all compromise. The ability to run mobile apps on the desktop Windows could have been a worthwhile feature, but trying to relegate the Windows desktop and Win32 software to a "legacy" dusty corner was a serious blunder. I still remember the first time I saw Windows 8, it was on a desktop PC with a 27" 4k monitor and the default "apps" were all full screen! You couldn't even use the calculator in a window next to some other software  :palm:  I couldn't believe what I was seeing, it's like it was designed by a group of people with extreme tunnel vision who had never seen someone use a computer before. I remember thinking maybe they should call it "Window" because you could only use one window at a time unless you found your way into the legacy desktop which they clearly were trying to shove off to the side.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2021, 05:33:56 am »
Yeah Windows 8 was a good example how "One size fits all" does not work for some things.

They should have called it Windows 8 Mobile or something and gave that all of the newfangled touchscreen UI stuff. And they sort of did that with Windows RT, as it was basically metro only Win8 that ran on ARM but it was a market flop. It only ran the metro apps made for it and since it was new there ware no apps basically, so it could barely do anything. On the other hand x86 processors have progressed in efficiency to the point being low power enough for tablet use while still keeping enough performance to do the job, so people just rather got a x86 tablet that can run full on windows.

Its the typical Microsoft way of stubbornly forcing themselves into a market. Sometimes it works like the Xbox for example, but most other times it just results in a flop.

Yet they already had crossplatform Win32 apps working back in about 2003 where they put .Net compact framework on there WindowsMobile/WinCE devices. This could make the same exe file run on ARM, MIPS, PowerPC..etc mobile devices but also run on a regular WindowsXP desktop PC as long as you had .net framework installed. They just decided that these apps don't look fancy enough in comparison to the first iPhone so they threw it all into the trash and came up with Windows Phone 7 that was no longer capable of running these EXEs (There was a very big library of WinCE software out there btw) but featured the first implementation of the Metro interface that later came to Win 8. We all know how that went... it destroyed Nokia by the time they gave up on pushing Windows Phone OS.

At first it was probably Microsoft trying to copycat Apple, but now that so many people use mobile devices more than a PC means that a large part of the userbase will actually want Windows to work more like a tablet/phone since that is what they are familiar with. Meanwhile i am pulling my hair out how to set a static IP for my network card on Win10 because the new Win10 UI doesn't have a setting for that, so i have to trick it into showing the old Win7 setting window where i can actually set it.
 

Offline gmb42

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2021, 10:05:31 am »
In an elevated PowerShell session use New-NetIPAddress, e.g.:

Code: [Select]
New-NetIPAddress -InterfaceIndex 12 -IPAddress 192.168.0.100 -PrefixLength 24 -DefaultGateway 192.168.0.1
This will disable DHCP on the interface if configured, as you would expect if configuring a static address.

Use Get-NetAdapter to locate the interface index.  If an address is already assigned you can either remove it first with Remove-IPAddress or just modify it with Set-NetIPAddress and you can retrieve assigned addresses with Get-NetIPAddress.

Sometimes, you can actually move on from older ways.  Just waiting for PKTS to chime in about how the Linux command line is better.
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2021, 12:04:48 pm »
In an elevated PowerShell session use New-NetIPAddress, e.g.:

Code: [Select]
New-NetIPAddress -InterfaceIndex 12 -IPAddress 192.168.0.100 -PrefixLength 24 -DefaultGateway 192.168.0.1
This will disable DHCP on the interface if configured, as you would expect if configuring a static address.

Use Get-NetAdapter to locate the interface index.  If an address is already assigned you can either remove it first with Remove-IPAddress or just modify it with Set-NetIPAddress and you can retrieve assigned addresses with Get-NetIPAddress.

Sometimes, you can actually move on from older ways.  Just waiting for PKTS to chime in about how the Linux command line is better.

The result of that is that i then have to remember this command for the once or twice a year i need to set a IP on a machine. Also if you are doing this on someones machine with Home or Education or whatever castrated edition of windows, then it might not have PowerShell installed on it.

Compared to the process on Win7. I can get the correct window by simply right clicking the networking icon next to the clock and going into network adapters. I can click my way there faster than opening the shell and typing that out. But most importantly that way is intuitive to a experienced windows user. Someone who has done this 5 years ago will be able to vaguely enough remember what to do and get it done in a timely manner without resorting to googling it. This is the strength of a well designed GUI. A unfamiliar but reasonably bright user can fumble there way around the GUI and eventually figure out what to do without any outside help. The WinForms GUI language gives you a clear visual queue on what is a clickable option, what type of input a field takes, how to navigate to additional hidden portions of the UI.

I don't regularly use Linux for example. I can get my way around the command line with basic stuff but i also will not be able to set the IP of a network card from the command line without resorting to google. But i will be able to set up the IP trough the GUI on Linux despite having never seen that distributions particular GUI implementation.

But i was mostly using the "Changing your IP" as an example. I had plenty of cases where i had trouble doing a normally simple administrative task on Win10 because i first could not find the correct menu for it, then once i got to the correct menu i find out that the setting for what i want is completely missing from that menu. So i resort to randomly clicking around until i find a way to get the Win7 style menu pops up. Am i getting too old to understand modern UIs?
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2021, 03:15:19 pm »
[...] Am i getting too old to understand modern UIs?

No, you are not getting too old to understand.  Modern UIs are not designed with discoverability (affordance) in mind.  They are designed for n00b users to be able to do simple tasks without ever being confronted with anything that could be described as "complicated" (by a n00b).

The above statement doesn't mean I think Win 8.1 or Win 10 got everything wrong:   what they should have done, IMHO, is have a switchable "n00b mode" that experienced users can turn off...

Whenever I use Windows 10 or 8.1,  I am forever pecking around trying to find things - usually, I end up getting the job done, sometimes with the aid of a Google search (where invariably, millions of other people are asking the same question about "Where did they hide... X" !   :D
 

Offline james_s

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2021, 10:12:26 pm »
They should have called it Windows 8 Mobile or something and gave that all of the newfangled touchscreen UI stuff. And they sort of did that with Windows RT, as it was basically metro only Win8 that ran on ARM but it was a market flop. It only ran the metro apps made for it and since it was new there ware no apps basically, so it could barely do anything. On the other hand x86 processors have progressed in efficiency to the point being low power enough for tablet use while still keeping enough performance to do the job, so people just rather got a x86 tablet that can run full on windows.

It was a serious mistake to call something "Windows" that couldn't run most of the vast library of existing Windows software. Any idiot should have been able to see that coming, a non-technical user buys a "Windows" tablet, takes it home and then realizes that none of the software they own can run on it because even though the name says Windows, it's a different Windows. I'm no Apple fanboy but that is something Apple did right, they didn't call their iPad operating system "MacOS", they had the sense not to give the same name to two completely different operating systems that can't run the same software. "Windows" or "Mac" mean something, if someone buys Windows, they expect Windows software to work on it, and if they buy a Mac, they expect Mac software to work on it. You can't expect non-technical people to make a deeper distinction than that.

Almost nobody runs Windows because they love Microsoft and love the OS, they run it because it supports a vast library of software spanning decades. It's all about the software, and the most fantastic state of the art operating system in the world is going to flop if it can't run the software people want to use. Anyone remember the BeBox? Or NeXT? They were amazing machines, cutting edge, lots of new concepts, lots of things that went on to mainstream adoption later, but at the time they flopped because they were new systems, incompatible with most of the software that was available. It wasn't 1985 anymore, when there were loads of different incompatible systems vying for market dominance. The war was long over Wintel and Mac being the dominant players.
 

Online newbrain

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2021, 01:19:34 pm »
Meanwhile i am pulling my hair out how to set a static IP for my network card on Win10 because the new Win10 UI doesn't have a setting for that, so i have to trick it into showing the old Win7 setting window where i can actually set it.
In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).

Even in the older ones (just checked on 1909), there was no "trick" involved, clicking "Change Adapter Option" from the same Network and Internet settings page brought up the legacy panel.

And yes, PowerShell is a godsend.
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Offline themadhippy

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2021, 01:39:20 pm »
Quote
In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).
The issue is trying to find that page,not everyone realises right clicking on start brings up a diffrent menu to  the one you get with left click.
 

Online newbrain

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2021, 01:55:01 pm »
Quote
In the Network and Internet settings page, just click 'Properties' for the network adapter you want to set up and it's right there (20H2).
The issue is trying to find that page,not everyone realises right clicking on start brings up a diffrent menu to  the one you get with left click.
Which is accessed exactly as on Windows 7 (AFAICR, it's been some time...), clicking on the Network icon in the system tray.
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Offline gmb42

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2021, 10:02:09 am »
I forgot the oldy, Win key + R, then type ncpa.cpl.  Also works from any shell prompt.
 

Offline AlexJackson

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2021, 12:44:15 am »
I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.
 

Offline gnuarm

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2021, 04:22:36 am »
Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(  On the bright side, everything is supposed to revert to USB2; it just might not perform as well as expected.
I've never been clear on what "Pro" offers.  It may have more to do with how the system can be "administered" than with features that are visible to users.

I could be wrong, but I believe there are some features of remote operation that are not supported with the "home" version of Windows. 
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Offline james_s

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2021, 05:28:44 am »
I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.

I will NEVER install Win10 bare metal on one of my machines. They had one chance at a first impression and screwed up royally, it was the most half baked piece of crap when first foisted on the world, I've seen beta stuff that was better. When Win7 becomes no longer viable I'll install Win10 in a VM under Linux. I've already migrated most of my systems over to Linux but Win7 is still my favorite OS overall. I know where everything is, MS doesn't screw with it, and it pretty much just works.
 

Offline MrMobodies

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2021, 05:46:23 am »
I need to look further into Win10 LTSC... Win7 is working fine but id like to update to new hardware and not give up gaming yet. I also don't like the idea of updates randomly changing my settings and Microsoft deciding what "apps" I want or don't want ESPECIALLY on my main server where I'm locked to windows due to hardware and applications.

Or I could just say eff it, and keep my current win7 machine for gaming and my new build for when I want to get work done and not have to trace down idiotic random changes and reboots.
I hear there is a thing called 0patch for Windows 7 but I haven't tried it yet.

https://0patch.com/pricing.html

I know exactly how you feel and I went to great efforts over months experimenting and studying what the additional services do and trying to disable the telemetry stuff manually and any connections made to Microsoft and it's partners. You can switch off "App stuff" from automatically installing in Group policy editor so when installing a printer it doesn't get the "app" for it I'd have to look where that option is again. It was with a lot of frustration and anger for a long time until I got it the way I want and sometimes I feel it wasn't worth it due to the amount of work, staring at the screen looking for things, like removing many annoying nagging services, permissions and update notification ux stuff. I have a headache after and eye strain so it couldn't be any good for me.

I'd buy another drive and switch between the two just incase anything happens with the Windows 10 LTSC.

Here's what I do to gain control of the windows update service:

After Windows 10 is installed just make a backup of the drive with something like Macrium on another operating system or computer.

With it mounted:
I think it was in Program files, I can't remember which one but take ownership and remove.
Waasmedic folder, (Windows update mediatoon. There maybe another one called REMPL that turns it on too.

Task scheduler:

Take ownership of c:\windows\system32\tasks\
disable inheritence and convert then Deny SYSTEM everything.
Then delete the tasks in there.

In registry look for "Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule\TaskCache\Tree\Microsoft\Windows\UpdateOrchestrator"
change permission to deny "Trustinstaller" everything.

Then look above it in ""Computer\HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Schedule"
For tasks that match "usocore" and do the same to them but remove all the stuff in the keys.

Otherwise without setting this what I found will happen when Usocore starts again, it will default, recreate the tasks in the folders, the registry keys and deny the administrators the permissions. (Blooming cheek)


To gain control to start/stop and edit services:
In the services and application where you are prevented from altering Update Orchestor service, in registry editor look for USOCORE and change the type to like 16 where you can start/stop and disable the service.

That is only one thing, there are many other things I do and remove maybe I should do a thread on it.
I don't plan anytime going through all that aggravation again and the of time it took me.

See pictures.

I am going to try and clone it when I want another copy and I just get key and that.

If you want a go at the one I setup in the pictures, message me and I can set remote access, and If you are happy with it maybe I can send it over as a disk image file and if you get working you can purchase a key for it for £15 from the site I got it from. That one is on a virtual machine for testing.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:12:49 am by MrMobodies »
 

Offline Berni

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2021, 05:46:37 am »
Anything above USB2 runs the risk of "my cable doesn't have all the signals that this peripheral wants", just like in the bad old days with DB25, DE9, etc :-(  On the bright side, everything is supposed to revert to USB2; it just might not perform as well as expected.
I've never been clear on what "Pro" offers.  It may have more to do with how the system can be "administered" than with features that are visible to users.

I could be wrong, but I believe there are some features of remote operation that are not supported with the "home" version of Windows.

It is indeed mostly features you wouldn't quickly notice, mostly things the business/enterprise clients need, but when it does lock down a feature you end up needing, it can be really frustrating.

For example the home version of Win10 will not take more than 128GB of RAM, can't connect to RemoteDesktop, doesn't support HyperV, doesn't have BitLocker drive encryption.

But this is quite a bit more relaxed compared to the cheap castrated Win7 licenses. For example Win7 Starter only lets you have up to 2GB of RAM and no 64bit, no multimonitor support and no printing over the network. Stepping up to Win7 HomeBasic solves that but still only allows up to 8GB of RAM, but still doesn't have remote desktop. Even going up to Win7 Pro won't get you BitLocker support, you need to get Win7 Ultimate for that.

In still sticking to Win 7 until i have a reason to go up.

 
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Online newbrain

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2021, 09:33:28 am »
can't connect to RemoteDesktop
Just to clarify: it connects quite happily to a remote desktop (the client is there).
What is not possible is enable remote access to a W10 Home machine. There's SW for that, if you need it.
It's also not possible to make it a member of an AD Domain.
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Offline gnuarm

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2021, 02:15:56 pm »
can't connect to RemoteDesktop
Just to clarify: it connects quite happily to a remote desktop (the client is there).
What is not possible is enable remote access to a W10 Home machine. There's SW for that, if you need it.

Yeah, it's called Win10 Pro
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Offline james_s

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2021, 08:12:04 pm »
I would never recommend anyone go with anything less than Pro. Even Pro is bad enough but Win10 Home is seriously gimped 'freemium' software, the level of control over updates, or lack thereof is completely unacceptable IMO and it is missing some features as mentioned above.
 
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Offline westfw

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Re: USB 3 and old folk
« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2021, 11:09:09 pm »
Quote
You can switch off "App stuff" from automatically installing in Group policy editor
Ah.  "Group Policy Editor" would be one of the things not included in "W10 Home"...(although it looks like you can download and install it without needing the "Pro" upgrade.)
 


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