Author Topic: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?  (Read 3322 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2022, 02:37:49 pm »
maybe you can ask people at NASA or CERN about which PC/laptop is suitable for their particle physic modeling/prediction etc.

LOL

Nasa. Curosity team...



Also the researchers tend to use MacBooks at CERN and the place is absolutely crawling with iMacs. They only place they don't really feature is on compute clusters and admin stuff. But it's all Unix and the Macs are Unix...

Same in fintech these days as well.

Edit: don't forget that Tim at CERN's old www box was a NeXTcube, which is basically what the current line of Macs are (Mach + NeXTstep + some evolution).

Reality is you can go to ANY high street these days and buy a multi-core RISC 64-bit certified Unix machine descended from the NeXTcube that is used at CERN, NASA etc and ships with a full suite of compiler tools and a full Unix command line that runs rings around most other things on the market on performance and everything on the market for power consumption and battery life and everything that has ever existed on quality.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2022, 02:44:58 pm by bd139 »
 
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2022, 03:02:09 pm »
Nasa. Curosity team...
not the socialized office people again! :palm: those are not personal owned laptops, those are company's assets, suited for the purpose ;D
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Offline tooki

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2022, 04:29:58 pm »
As for comparing a desktop PC to a Mac laptop: very few PC laptops have upgradeable graphics cards. Laptops, regardless of platform, tend to have highly customized motherboards, and while the Mac has embraced fully-integrated, completely non-customizable/upgradeable motherboards, the PC world is going the same direction, just a few years later (as always...)
just to be clear, my comments earlier are on any laptop in general, not particularly on mac brand. macbook is just a high end version of a laptop. any laptop doesnt have upgradable graphics card, thats what i was talking about, one of the thing.

i dont consider any EDA such as Keil or Microchip Studio as "demanding" tools, even the Photoshop or Altium Designer, they are in "lightweight" to "middleweight" range. AutoCAD or other 3D CAD or renderers start to demand on GPU power, CPU power for custom render methods that the GPU cant do efficiently. things got heavy when you play with engineering solvers and FEA/FEM analysis tools. and i heard people talking about large scale SW development that the compiler will use to the last bit of your CPU power to do compilations of many code files, i dont think Keil is one of them. probably in sci-fi film production too. maybe you can ask people at NASA or CERN about which PC/laptop is suitable for their particle physic modeling/prediction etc. and there is no amount of processing power on earth that is "enough" if you want to do a custom O(n^x) operation with x >= 2, n = extremely large value, even for a small single function of code. ymmv.
Dude.  :palm: Nobody is disputing the existence of users with truly high-end needs. But your original statement, made to exemplify the need for upgradability, was that anyone who chooses to "upgrade" their "skill set" will need upgradability. And that's complete and utter nonsense. The hardware demands of a piece of software have no relation to how far someone goes in their career! A programmer, no matter how skilled, will never need cutting-edge hardware to do their job. (OK, if you're going to compile the entire Windows source code, it's handy, but it's not just your work then.) Meanwhile, anyone doing 8k video editing, no matter how low-skilled they may be (even someone straight out of school at a film studio), is going to need a beast of a machine with massive storage infrastructure. It has nothing to do with skill and all to do with the requirements of the job. And realistically, very, VERY few things these days require high-end hardware. The vast majority of workers, regardless of skill level, have minimal-to-modest system requirements, and won't EVER upgrade their computer, they'll just replace it.

I remember when computers were so slow (very early 1990s) that a standard part of benchmarking in computer magazines was recalculating large Lotus 1-2-3 or Excel spreadsheets, because the difference between an entry level machine and a top of the line one could be 45 seconds vs. 15 seconds. That's a real, palpable difference. Only a few years later, they removed the "recalculate" command altogether because it was something that could be done in real time. It used to be that photography was an extremely high-end application, now it's something that (at least when implemented with some brains) is happy on almost anything: graphic artists no longer need to be as high up on the performance scale as they once did. When I started my career in IT, professional standard-definition video editing required machines with tons of specialized hardware and massive disk arrays (The video never even passed through the CPU: the computer was simply the host and user interface for dedicated hardware). SD (and HD) video editing is something modern systems can do in their sleep.

I also think it's important to point out that games have basically redefined what high-end means. GPU development isn't driven by high-end professional graphics (engineering workstations, etc) any more, it's driven by games. A GPU that's modest for modern games is, frankly, quite capable for a whole lot of engineering software. (The main difference between "pro" cards like the Quadro line is the drivers, which are optimized for accuracy over speed, whereas the gaming drivers are optimized for speed at the expense of accuracy. As an aside, on the Mac, there's never been this distinction, with the drivers all more or less corresponding to the pro drivers on Windows. That's why software that demands a pro GPU on Windows is perfectly happy with the equivalent gaming GPU on the Mac.) It used to be SGI pushing GPU capabilities forward for money-is-no-object level of high end applications. Less than a decade after $250,000 each SGI Onyx systems were needed to create the liquid metal in Terminator 2, SGI was moribund and Maya, the descendant of the software used to make that film, was running happily on Mac OS X and Windows NT on commodity hardware, thanks to games pushing GPU development forward at a tremendous pace.

Similarly, the growth of standard computer performance is why the high-end UNIX workstations (SGI, Sun, etc.) all died out. Mainstream hardware caught up with them, so there was no longer any justification to spend the enormous R&D costs to design those things.
 
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Offline Bicurico

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #78 on: June 13, 2022, 07:09:08 pm »
After using Windows 11 for some time, I still don't like it. Windows 10 is more user friendly, while 11 is a pain in some aspects. Also, I have not found one single nice new feature.
But the upgrade is a must, due to security updates which will cease on Windows 10, when it gets obsolete.
The only thing one can do is to delay the upgrade until then.
It pisses me off that most of my power computing hardware is not eligible due to older CPU or lack of TPM 2.0.
 
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Offline austfox

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2022, 02:33:19 pm »
I put together a new computer for home use and installed a fresh copy of W11. About 4 hours in and all my programs were installed, drives setup the way I like them, desktops customised, and the whole thing just works without any issue.

W11 was a free upgrade from W10... W10 was a free upgrade from W7... and I've been around long enough to remember when DOS was AUD $150, Windows 95 for around the same price, and OS/2 was well over the $200 mark (maybe half the weekly wage back then).

I realise the money to be made nowadays is in data collection and App purchases, but since W11 has been working 'out of the box' for me, I can't complain.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #80 on: June 15, 2022, 09:54:21 pm »
I remember when computers were so slow (very early 1990s) that a standard part of benchmarking in computer magazines was recalculating large Lotus 1-2-3 or Excel spreadsheets, because the difference between an entry level machine and a top of the line one could be 45 seconds vs. 15 seconds. That's a real, palpable difference. Only a few years later, they removed the "recalculate" command altogether because it was something that could be done in real time. It used to be that photography was an extremely high-end application, now it's something that (at least when implemented with some brains) is happy on almost anything: graphic artists no longer need to be as high up on the performance scale as they once did. When I started my career in IT, professional standard-definition video editing required machines with tons of specialized hardware and massive disk arrays (The video never even passed through the CPU: the computer was simply the host and user interface for dedicated hardware). SD (and HD) video editing is something modern systems can do in their sleep.

I also think it's important to point out that games have basically redefined what high-end means. GPU development isn't driven by high-end professional graphics (engineering workstations, etc) any more, it's driven by games. A GPU that's modest for modern games is, frankly, quite capable for a whole lot of engineering software. (The main difference between "pro" cards like the Quadro line is the drivers, which are optimized for accuracy over speed, whereas the gaming drivers are optimized for speed at the expense of accuracy. As an aside, on the Mac, there's never been this distinction, with the drivers all more or less corresponding to the pro drivers on Windows. That's why software that demands a pro GPU on Windows is perfectly happy with the equivalent gaming GPU on the Mac.) It used to be SGI pushing GPU capabilities forward for money-is-no-object level of high end applications. Less than a decade after $250,000 each SGI Onyx systems were needed to create the liquid metal in Terminator 2, SGI was moribund and Maya, the descendant of the software used to make that film, was running happily on Mac OS X and Windows NT on commodity hardware, thanks to games pushing GPU development forward at a tremendous pace.

Similarly, the growth of standard computer performance is why the high-end UNIX workstations (SGI, Sun, etc.) all died out. Mainstream hardware caught up with them, so there was no longer any justification to spend the enormous R&D costs to design those things.

For many years the computers I could afford were never really powerful enough and they quickly became hopelessly obsolete. Now my daily driver laptop was made in 2015 and I'm typing this on a 2011 made Thinkpad since my main laptop suffered a hardware failure and I haven't had a chance to rebuild it from some parts machines I bought and for day to day use this thing is plenty capable. I can't tell the difference in speed between this and brand new Macbooks at work. Computers got so fast that it just doesn't even matter anymore for most things, even a 10 year old PC is perfectly fine for about 98% of use cases.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2022, 09:57:07 pm »
I put together a new computer for home use and installed a fresh copy of W11. About 4 hours in and all my programs were installed, drives setup the way I like them, desktops customised, and the whole thing just works without any issue.

W11 was a free upgrade from W10... W10 was a free upgrade from W7... and I've been around long enough to remember when DOS was AUD $150, Windows 95 for around the same price, and OS/2 was well over the $200 mark (maybe half the weekly wage back then).

I realise the money to be made nowadays is in data collection and App purchases, but since W11 has been working 'out of the box' for me, I can't complain.

Upgrade LOL

I consider Win10 a substantial downgrade from Win7. I've used both extensively and there is no comparison, I got so sick of fighting with Win10 at a former job that I have never looked back, upgrading to 7 was a breath of fresh air. I recently picked up another laptop that came with Win11 so I played around with that for a bit, not sure if it's better or worse than 10, the start menu is hot garbage though. They keep messing with it and it STILL is not half as capable as the start menu in Win7. I wish they'd just throw the Win7 UI on top of the Win11 framework and ditch all the telemetry and other trash, then they'd have a solid OS that I'd actually pay for.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2022, 11:07:17 pm »
not sure if it's better or worse than 10, the start menu is hot garbage though. They keep messing with it and it STILL is not half as capable as the start menu in Win7.
currently using Win7 on 13yrs old PC, soon upgrading to Win10 on another older 7yrs old but upgraded to maxed PC. if talking about start menu, i still miss WinXP start menu... no need to scrollbar, all apps can fit in a screen for quick browsing. but its a second issue (after Windows Explorer) as i've workaround of putting my frequently used apps on desktop screen and taskbar. but digging seldomly used apps in start menu, WinXP is still the best... my need for newer Windows is only due to be able to run newer apps/features that cant be run on WinXP anymore, and security update is the second reason. the kids in M$ who develops newer Windows only think of appearance rather than practicality, maybe due to the majority of kids out there requesting it in their Users Experience Surveys.
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Offline tooki

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Re: W11 - Worth upgrading from W10 ?
« Reply #83 on: June 16, 2022, 09:55:39 am »
For many years the computers I could afford were never really powerful enough and they quickly became hopelessly obsolete. Now my daily driver laptop was made in 2015 and I'm typing this on a 2011 made Thinkpad since my main laptop suffered a hardware failure and I haven't had a chance to rebuild it from some parts machines I bought and for day to day use this thing is plenty capable. I can't tell the difference in speed between this and brand new Macbooks at work. Computers got so fast that it just doesn't even matter anymore for most things, even a 10 year old PC is perfectly fine for about 98% of use cases.
Exactly!!! In fact, until I got my Windows laptop last winter for school, my daily drivers were my 2008 Mac Pro and 2012 MacBook Air.

The only reason they struggle at all with my everyday stuff is because I tend to leave a bajillion browser windows open. (Indeed, particularly with the Mac Pro, the ever-growing problem wasn't performance, but software compatibility, since it doesn't support recent versions of macOS, and I've been too lazy to look into the hacks to get newer versions on it.) Asking the MacBook to run Windows in a VM with all my other stuff open at the same time was simply asking too much, so I got the Windows laptop for school. And realistically, Altium struggled in a VM on either machine, since VirtualBox's GPU support is... modest.
 


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