Windows 10 Update Aggro

[rstofer]

Again, if it takes way too much time to adjust and adapt every single existing application from Windows, I may leave a Windows 8.1 or 10 host just for these tasks.

Or dual boot...  That's what I am doing on my more higher powered desktop.  Mint and Win 10 Pro.  1 TB SSD + 1 TB of HDD for Win 10 plus 2 TB of HDD for Mint.  Works well!

I think you're right, Firefox is the default browser.  I'm not sure what the default search engine is but it sucks.  I only used it on ONE search before I installed Chromium.  I'm getting old and I just want things to work like I think they should.

[rsjsouza]

Or dual boot...  That's what I am doing on my more higher powered desktop.  Mint and Win 10 Pro.  1 TB SSD + 1 TB of HDD for Win 10 plus 2 TB of HDD for Mint.  Works well!

Yes, dual boot. I am glad I don't have any of these new secure boot hosts or I would need to jump through hoops to get Linux going. 

[Halcyon]

A few, very few, people have joined the Linux crowd that, at best, represents 2% of desktop users.  How come, after 25 years in the field, Linux is a bit player?

Well, it's because it is darn difficult to get set up, nothing you want is included with the distro, you spend more time at the command line than you ever imagined and, in the end, what do you have?  An OS that nobody else uses.  And if your hardware isn't supported by the built-in drivers (NVIDIA), life will get truly exciting.  In fact, you will get to recompile the drivers every time the kernel is upgraded.  Fun times!

When was the last time you installed Linux? Almost none of this is true today. I installed the NVIDIA drivers from the NVIDIA website which worked flawlessly. You also have a selection of distros which comes packages with office applications etc... I have never had to re-compile a driver on all the machines I use Linux on.

The Linux market share is steadily increasing and we have Windows 10 to thank for that.

[themadhippy]

Dual booting is so last century,run virtual boxes and you can swap between varies o/s's at the click of a mouse button

[james_s]

I remember compiling kernels on Linux to get drivers for various hardware to work, and spending hours poking around in the console trying to accomplish basic things. That was more than a decade ago though and the last time I compiled a kernel was on a 486-66, must have been in the late 90s.

These days Linux is actually fairly painless for typical uses, where Windows is still king is with gaming and certain high end productivity software like Photoshop and CAD/CAM packages. If you have software that requires Windows then you run Windows, that is the overwhelming reason to do so. That is the reason I've been mystified by Microsoft's attempts to deprecate the legacy desktop software because without that there is little reason to run their OS. Their "modern" app platform took off like a lead balloon and now without a serious mobile presence has no reason to exist.   

[rstofer]

When was the last time you installed Linux? Almost none of this is true today. I installed the NVIDIA drivers from the NVIDIA website which worked flawlessly. You also have a selection of distros which comes packages with office applications etc... I have never had to re-compile a driver on all the machines I use Linux on.

The Linux market share is steadily increasing and we have Windows 10 to thank for that.

Well, within the last week I have installed Raspian several times, Mint twice and FreeBSD once.  Far and away, FreeBSD is the worst of that bunch to install.  Not that it was a big effort but I also configured 2.11BSD several times.  Nothing major, just the network settings.  I also installed Win 10 Pro and it's a breeze!  Mint is pretty easy but it seems that everything I need I have to go and fetch.  Is GCC in the distro?  Fortran?  I don't recall because if they aren't there I just add them and I don't keep a running 'bitch' list.

One could make a good argument for NOT including GCC for email level users but, for me, the compiler tools are the ONLY reason I use Linux.  I sure don't use it for the swell desktop (although, Mint is pretty nice).  I actually use it for the command line.  Kind of archaic, I suppose.

As to percent of desktops, this is a year and a half old but shows Linux at 1.46% - less than 15 out of a thousand.  I don't think Microsoft is worried.  Different surveys, slightly different numbers, but I have never seen Linux as more than 2% of desktops.

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/linux-market-share/

[rstofer]

Now I remember...

After the Mint install I ran 'sudo apt-get update' and 'sudo apt-get upgrade'. During the process, apt left some broken packages. First time this ever happened.

Off to Google!  If you use Linux, Google will be your best friend.  None of the command line approaches would fix the problem but there is a selection in the desktop "Software Update" app that will repair the problems.  Eventually...  If you search far enough through the Google replies...

I don't know what caused the failure but it took a while to find the resolution.

Nvidia drivers are not installed by default.  In fact, as they are 3rd  party software, even their repository isn't included in the list of 'accepted' repositories.  The builders are worried about corrupting the "open source" attributes of Linux.  Gotta keep it pure!  At all costs!

If you search long enough, and your video card works in VGA mode, you will find a process like this:

http://www.linuxandubuntu.com/home/how-to-install-latest-nvidia-drivers-in-linux

It's kind of ugly for a newcomer but it's way ahead of recompiling I had to do with Red Hat Linux several years back.

How in the world is a newcomer going to know about these problems?  First of all, they shouldn't be problems.  Just because Nvidia won't disclose their trade secrets and open their driver source is no reason for the Linux distros to make this so difficult.

Mint has a great way to install printers.  The older web browser approach was an upgrade over having to figure out /etc/printcap.  Again, how should a newcomer know about this stuff?  And it's not a given that every printer has open source drivers.

[rsjsouza]

Yes, dual boot. I am glad I don't have any of these new secure boot hosts or I would need to jump through hoops to get Linux going. 

Are there any non-embedded systems that mandate secure boot?
Even Surface tablets can disable secure boot and boot Linux.

At a certain point in time there were several articles that covered the hurdles of having secure boot in a host. However, my information may be outdated, as articles like these apparently turn this process a lot simpler task.

In my daily work (embedded), the secure boot is a royal pain to enable low level debugging on high security devices.

Dual booting is so last century,run virtual boxes and you can swap between varies o/s's at the click of a mouse button

I agree 100% that virtual boxes are nice, but have drawbacks with certain types of hardware - in my case, JTAG debuggers and logic analyzers.

(...)I also installed Win 10 Pro and it's a breeze!  Mint is pretty easy but it seems that everything I need I have to go and fetch.  Is GCC in the distro?  Fortran?  I don't recall because if they aren't there I just add them and I don't keep a running 'bitch' list.

User-oriented distros do not have a "developer install mode" like traditional distros such as RedHat, Suse or Slackware - you need to download everything.

My biggest concern with this approach is long term support - if I need to re-create an older environment with legacy development tools, the basic installation CD (or ISO file) does not give me that and I will have to install every component separately. But I admit that is a corner case, and can be solved by the use of Virtual machines, if you don't need to access specific hardware.

However, the pain of device drivers and changes caused by updates is real. When I upgraded Ubuntu on my Dell Latitude E6520 to 18.04, the Wi-Fi was inoperative and required some googling and mucking around with configurations. Latest updates to Ubuntu 18.04.2 messed up some serial comms devices. On a specific host I couldn't properly initialize my video when the third party Nvidia drivers were installed - I had to wait months until an update was released (at least the video worked with the standard drivers, but the performance was abysmal).

No, nothing is different than Windows and its broken updates but, being much more mainstream, the fixes tend to happen a lot quicker.

[rstofer]

Don't even get me started on Linux versus WiFi.  A few years ago it was nearly impossible to get things working and even then, only a few devices could even be configured.  Today, you will see recommendations to use devices with specific internal chipsets.  Like I know what's inside...  But that's back to the open source driver problem.  The devices being recommended don't tend to be the latest and greatest.  I understand why Linux is years behind on hardware drivers and I also understand why manufacturers always provide a Windows driver.  Windows isn't 'open source' so they don't have to disclose how their gadget actually works.  It will always be an issue.

Linux works, I use it all the time.  I would even recommend it to the user who only wants email and web but only if they couldn't afford a copy of Win 10 Home.  Super users will develop skills over time and it all works out fine for them as well.  But the many casual command line users are going to have to step up because absolutely nothing is as easy as you would hope.

[madires]

The last 10 years I haven't encountered any major problem using WiFi with linux. There are a few chipsets which require an NDA and a proprietary binary blob to get them running, but it isn't hard to avoid those. I had some cases of proprietary code screwing up WiFi on SOHO routers and APs, e.g. uncommon lifetimes for keys and dropping the connection regularly. Replacing the vendor's firmware with OpenWrt (open source WiFi drivers) resolved the WiFi issues.

[rstofer]

Real life example of where Linux shines:  I had an FPGA project that sent out plotter step codes over SPI at, I believe, 12 MHz.  Great if you have a real plotter and I haven't had one in 30 years.  So, I used an mbed (LPC1768) to grab the codes and stuff the data in a queue.  The main program accumulated steps and ultimately converted the output to HPGL sentences that would be sent over TCP/IP to a LaserJet.

It may surprise you to find that my code wasn't perfect on the first attempt and I needed a 'server' that looked, or at least connected, like a LaserJet.  This is totally trivial with Berkeley Sockets and there is no better place to play with these than on Linux.  So, the Linux box received the command strings and ultimately put them in a file for review.  It took far less than an hour to create this 'server' code.  It was a great diagnostic tool.

The changes in the mbed code between sending the output to the real LaserJet or sending the code to my Linux server was just the destination IP address.

If you want to play with magic, Linux is the place to do it.

I have another example where I used uClinux on a Blackfin board to grab test vectors over NFS from a Linux box and shift them in and out of an FPGA project where I was recreating a PDP11/70 ALU.  The Blackfin was total overkill but it had networking and that was critical.  Today I would use an mbed but it wasn't available way back when.

Although I am often critical of Linux and how unfriendly it can be, I use the heck out of it when I want to do magic.  There really is no better sandbox to play in.

[Electro Detective]

Dual booting is so last century,

run virtual boxes and you can swap between varies o/s's at the click of a mouse button

Whilst virtual boxes rock    the average impoverished computing adventurer can dual boot and or multi boot on a 15 year old PC clunker landfill escapee 

with 1 or 2 gigs of ram, and get the job done 

 

[soldar]

I am running Linux Mint with an NVidia video card. It seems I was originally using a so-called "nouveau" driver. (I have no idea what that means.)

Then I upgraded Google Earth and GE stopped working right. After much investigating I was told I needed to install the NVidia driver and drop the nouveau.  It was an ordeal because I would restart the computer and get a blank screen. Nothing. And I would panic and believe I would have to reinstall Linux. Finally, after much suffering, I got the NVidia driver and Google Earth to work. Ok. Good.

Then I upgraded Teamviewer and it stopped working. I have spent months trying this and that to no avail. TeamViewer is not helpful. They don't care. They don't have to.

I have asked in several forums without luck.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/general-computing/teamviewer-v14-is-messed-up/

Now it seems the new TeamViewer might conflict with the Nvidia driver and I am told to change driver ... or something. I don't understand the issue very well.

I tried reverting to the nouveau driver to see if that fixed the issue but I went again through the ordeal of starting the computer and seeing nothing on the screen and believing I would have to reinstall Linux.

For now I am playing it safe and not touching anything. 

Say what you want about Linux but user-friendly it ain't.

Maybe someone can lend me a hand in my thread about this issue.

[andersm]

I am running Linux Mint with an NVidia video card.

Well there's your problem. Just as a general rule, AMD and Intel graphics just work better than Nvidia, ARM, or other GPUs using reverse-engineered or closed-source drivers.

It seems I was originally using a so-called "nouveau" driver. (I have no idea what that means.)

Nouveau is an open-source driver for Nvidia GPUs. Since Nvidia don't publish any documentation for their devices, it is largely developed by reverse-engineering their closed-source drivers. I think it's a minor miracle it works at all, but I've never had much luck with it beyond basic 2D desktop usage.

[rstofer]

That's the point of my rant!  I bought a high end machine (at the time) including pre-installed Red Hat Linux Workstation.  Dell had made the drivers work and NVIDIA seemed like the highest performing card I could buy at the time.  How was I to know?  I could hardly spell Linux much less compile drivers.  It never occurred to me, as a Windows user, that drivers would become a living nightmare!

It doesn't help that the drivers needed to be compiled against the particular kernel and, at that time, the kernel was getting updated often.  Like almost weekly.  It finally occurred to me to blow off the updates.  If what I had was working, I didn't need to worry about the boundary issues that were being fixed.

Today there is a similar problem in that most distros don't acknowledge the existence of 3rd party repositories.  Gotta keep the system 'pure'!  Once you don't have graphics, you can wander all over Google until you find a fix.  Assuming you don't need your NVIDIA video card to do anything special (or at all) during the fix (if one exists).

WiFi was another nightmare for a few years.  It seems pretty well cleaned up except:  There are still WiFi dongles, current products, that aren't supported and never will be.  So, it pays to search around on Google for recommendations of dongles that are known to work.  Of course, you will discover this right after you find out that the dongle you just bought isn't supported.

Those are a couple of reasons that Linux will never be mainstream.  That doesn't keep me from using it, I use it all the time, but it kind of gives me a license to bitch about 3rd party issues.  True, most of the responsibility lies with the device manufacturers but that isn't a satisfying answer when I can just plug the device into a Win 10 machine and it will fetch and install the drivers with no effort on my part.

But if you want to do magic, Linux is the best game in town.

[james_s]

You can have all those same problems with Windows though, the difference is you probably have a lot more accumulated knowledge that helps fix and prevent Windows problems. Just look at all the people who have had machines bricked by Windows updates. On one that I dealt with a couple of programs were silently uninstalled due to "compatibility problems" but they worked fine when I reinstalled them.

[Halcyon]

True, most of the responsibility lies with the device manufacturers but that isn't a satisfying answer when I can just plug the device into a Win 10 machine and it will fetch and install the drivers with no effort on my part.

Except when it doesn't. Sure, popular hardware is fine, but I've come across the same driver issues in Windows 10 involving all sorts of trickery to get the damn device working, including rebooting, disabling signed drivers etc... etc... If you want a completely plug and play experience that works within it's own limited ecosystem, buy Apple products. You can't blame Linux (or any other OS manufacturer) for lack of support for third party hardware.

[Electro Detective]

Macs can be Plug n PRAY too, and good luck getting those white (or chromed) elephants back on track when things break with silly Mac-hiccupdates
and or 'issues' on the inferior logic boards they use (aka motherboards)
corporat 'techniques' one may suspect    to keep pulling in the wood ducks to buy new money pits with shiny shells.

Apple apologists that trade up every 6/12 months, and have good Time Machine use and verification habits, may have a different take on that.. 

----------------------------

@ soldar: Out of habit I test a Linux distro first by using a bootable Live CD or DVD,
or a 'Live' USB stick (if it installs on the usb without too much effort) 

and after a few test sessions, restarts and verfying everything works, I'll install it  ..fingers crossed

fwiw it's a bit slow going uising the Live DVD, but still beats the install dramas you describe,
and if it goes belly up/black screen/Matrix',',','   

shut down the computer, reboot, remove the DVD,
and move on to the next distro and or look for solutions

There's probably ways to fix a broken or ailing Linux install using a Live DVD to add/remove stuff,
but I'm not an overpaid bored IT guy with spare time to work it out and post here. 

I reckon a bit of surfing in the Linux forums will bring up a few overpaid bored IT people that have worked it out (earning genuine guru status) and deserve praise for sharing 

[rstofer]

True, most of the responsibility lies with the device manufacturers but that isn't a satisfying answer when I can just plug the device into a Win 10 machine and it will fetch and install the drivers with no effort on my part.

Except when it doesn't. Sure, popular hardware is fine, but I've come across the same driver issues in Windows 10 involving all sorts of trickery to get the damn device working, including rebooting, disabling signed drivers etc... etc... If you want a completely plug and play experience that works within it's own limited ecosystem, buy Apple products. You can't blame Linux (or any other OS manufacturer) for lack of support for third party hardware.

Rebooting to reload code that is already in core seems reasonable.  It doesn't happen all that often.  And why wouldn't you have to manually approve unsigned drivers.  The code is so flaky the writer doesn't want anything to do with signing it but you're going to trust it?  I realize you have no choice as does Microsoft.  They just want everybody to realize the code is probably crap.

To be fair, I sometimes have to install unsigned drivers.  No big deal, just click the OK button (or whatever) and it happens.

[Halcyon]

Rebooting is one thing, no problems with that.  Same as installing unsigned drivers, but to faff around with drivers and "trick" them into working is an entirely different thing.

The point I was making was, I've never had to compile drivers under Linux and the NVIDIA drivers just work. But I have had to dick around in Windows. Such is the nature of both operating systems.

(Also I had to change your post back, I accidentally clicked "Modify" instead of "Quote" (both are next to each other).

[james_s]

Signed drivers have nothing to do with how flakey the code is. The signing is like any other kind of certification, it's expensive and time consuming, you pay a big fee, fill out a bunch of paperwork and it gets run through a largely automated test process. It's no surprise some smaller companies don't bother.

[rstofer]

Signed drivers have nothing to do with how flakey the code is. The signing is like any other kind of certification, it's expensive and time consuming, you pay a big fee, fill out a bunch of paperwork and it gets run through a largely automated test process. It's no surprise some smaller companies don't bother.

Absolutely!  Microsoft is simply making a point that the code is unsigned.  What you do with that information is up to you.  I load the drivers anyway as long as they are from a reputable company.

[rstofer]

Except when it doesn't. Sure, popular hardware is fine, but I've come across the same driver issues in Windows 10 involving all sorts of trickery to get the damn device working, including rebooting, disabling signed drivers etc... etc... If you want a completely plug and play experience that works within it's own limited ecosystem, buy Apple products. You can't blame Linux (or any other OS manufacturer) for lack of support for third party hardware.

Well, the key word is limited...

Nor can you blame manufacturers for not wanting to disclose their IP to the world.  It's a balancing act.  How to provide drivers to a moving target (not as bad as it used to be) without disclosing IP?  Source is out of the question, libraries would work if the interface was stable (but it wasn't, I don't know how it stands today) but the community doesn't like blobs and around it goes.

Linux will never use the latest and greatest peripherals simply due to the time lag of reverse engineering the drivers.  Maybe it doesn't matter.

Open source, in many ways, is a PITA.  In concept it sounds terrific but, in practice, there are problems.  The multiplicity of licenses doesn't help the situation.

If you take the fictional XYZ video card, fastest and bestest card on the planet, it still would make no sense to write drivers for Linux.  At best Linux is 2% of desktops and XYZ couldn't possibly hope to be installed on 1% of them.  So, 1% of 2% (0.02%) of desktops (and probably only new desktops which further limits penetration) just isn't a big enough market to bother with.  What with the IP and licensing issues, it would be a costly venture.  Unless a single driver covered a family of products like NVIDIA - and even their coverage is spotty.

[Jan Audio]

How can you brick a PC with windows 10 updates ?
Was you so mad you throw the thing out the real window ?

[SiliconWizard]

Signed drivers have nothing to do with how flakey the code is. The signing is like any other kind of certification, it's expensive and time consuming, you pay a big fee, fill out a bunch of paperwork and it gets run through a largely automated test process. It's no surprise some smaller companies don't bother.

Yeah, the certification entails passing a number of automated tests, some of which are tests evaluating the robustness of the driver in a limited number of cases (such as surprise removal). It's certainly better than nothing. The signing itself reasonably ensures that the driver is genuine and not a fake one. Signing is a rather good thing per se. Code signing and WHQL certification are two different things, although a certified driver MUST have a signature.

For a company that does things right, it adds no value other than marketing though (which is something!), as the same automated testing is available for free to developers.

Not all companies do things right though and can be trusted with uncertified drivers...